Have to wait and see what actually ships, real world feedback and costs...but certainly worth keeping an eye on.

AMD Zen 4 Ryzen 6000

Crazy...the Zen 3 CPUs are magnificent processors; I've built two 5600x systems in the past 6 weeks or so. They outperform every other CPU I've built with to date, including a 9700k and a 10600k, and they compete squarely with my own new 9900K.

If these Zen 4 successors are anywhere near the same generational bump in cost/performance that Zen 3 was over Zen 2, that would be truly remarkable.

Shame that WOFF has trouble with new AMD GPUs, as it's always been my own personal preference to build either all AMD or Intel/Nvidia, and the new AMD GPUs are equally as impressive as the CPUs...but that's another discussion.

Always used AMD without problems with WOFF

I was able to test some games on an 10850k, 3090 rtx, 32gb cl14 b-die ram at 4K and stock settings and all I can say is “game over for AMD” for at least another year. Unfortunately, it was only a brief two days of testing ray tracing, vr, dlss but AMD has no chance to compete with these technologies.

Not if you have a new AMD GPU, you aren't. Several people have reported the issues, it's been recognized by OBD, and Pol's already posted over at the AMD forums seeking their help with it.

Now, if you're saying you *are* using a new AMD GPU (that is, anything past RX Vega cards) and aren't having problems, then I'm sure a lot of people here would like to hear from you about how. The threads are available, so you can see for yourself what's been reported. Perhaps you hadn't noticed/followed them.

What I've seen indicates 6900XT can go toe-to-toe with 3090, outperforming it at times >(one example here)<, requires significantly less power - and is 2/3rds the cost, for roughly the same performance (that's a whopping $500 less cost - enough to buy the majority of the other components for a PC build).

But, I believe the thread was started about CPUs. As I said above, the GPU discussion is another matter.

The Ryzen CPU's are great. Much bigger bang for your buck than Intel. AMD sure have come a long way. But I do use an Nvidia GPU. No probs with any WW1 flight sim.

Leaked Core i7 11700K results show AMD Ryzen is still the CPU to beat in 2021

>LINK<

Flagship Intel CPU, not even released yet, but still facing serious competition from Zen 3 (and sometimes, losing that competition).

Have a Ryzen 1600 CPU and a RX480 8gig GPU card

Yeah, the RX480 was before the RX Vega (I actually own two RX470s) so you wouldn't have the issues.

The newer cards (after RX Vega 56/64, which themselves were after RX 400/500 series, like your 480) require newer drivers, which have issues in WOFF. As I mentioned, there are several threads here you could find which discuss this.

Possible release date of "somewhere in 2020" and 5Ghz on all cores. I hope it all shakes out that way.
More Zen 4 news

Of course if you measure AMD cpu vs intel cpu, AMD will always win in price to performance category. Unfortunately, a pc is more than it’s cpu when measuring real world performance in games and applications. Combining the latest cpu, gpu and memory, then nothing beats an intel/nvidia based system for raw performance.

I was benchmarking shadow of the tomb raider at 4K resolution and had got an average of 110 FPS with all settings maxed out on that system. The 3090 was using 98% of its 24gb memory and the 10850k was running at 5.2 stock (no overclocking and with MCE enabled in BIOS). I have never seen a score like that in SOTTR. Most all reviews were getting comparable test results and some even higher FPS. An AMD system would be in the low 80s. Although, I certainly do not claim that this one benchmark alone establishes that intel/nvidia platform is superior. But if there are no other reviews that I’ve read proves otherwise, then it becomes clear which is the stronger combination of cpu/gpu/memory.

AMD is good, but intel will always be ahead... when taken as a whole pc system.

I'm glad you understand that.

You can't use the concept of a "whole PC system" as some kind of proof that Intel will always be ahead (itself a fallacy - unless you're also claiming to know the future). The absolute reality is that cost is part of a 'whole system', and your comparisons always seem to ignore cost.

If cost is no object, there are ways I can build a system, right now - today - that would smoke an Intel setup as a "whole system". But cost *is* an object, and it cannot be ignored when it's convenient to do so.

In case you missed it, the link I provided above *is* a review that says otherwise: "It is clear that the Intel Core i7 11700K is the most powerful Intel processor in gaming, but slightly lagging behind the new AMD monsters in the Ryzen 5000 series." A flagship 11th-gen Intel CPU that's not even released yet, matched and outperformed in some cases by Zen3.

Also, this: "In GTA V, Shadow of War, Batman AK and Ashes of the Singularity, Intel Core i7 11700K obtains similar results with 10900K, or better, being surpassed by AMD processors from Ryzen 5000 series. " Just to be clear: The AMD 5000 Zen 3 CPUs outperformed the 11700k at times, which itself was deemed similar to 10900k "or better" - and it seems unlikely the 10850k would actually be better than the 10900K.

So, 10850K < 10900K < 11700K < Ryzen 5000 series.

And this thread is actually about Zen 4, which will almost certainly best Zen 3 and isn't far away at all.

But yeah, don't take my word for it. It's not as if the entire industry knows what's going on with all this and also sees Intel shaking in their boots...

...oh, wait. It is exactly like that.


EDIT: Oh, one other thing: Find me an Intel "whole system" with PCIe 4.0. The Nvidia GPU you speak so highly of obviously was built with understanding of the importance of PCIe 4.0...but you can't buy a motherboard today with an Intel CPU that supports PCIe 4.0. The CPUs aren't even due for perhaps another month. Meanwhile I've done several AMD builds since last year ("Whole PCs", actual, real-life working machines) that support it.

We have been here many times, but just let's hope this time AMD's competition is sustained, and then we get a real permanent competitor to Intel - then everyone wins. If they keep this up for 10 years then we'll be very happy.

Intel have been here before too, and in the past they pulled out some stops and brought out better stuff to leap ahead for the next 10-15 years but let's see how it goes!

I will be very happy if there are still new editions of WOFF coming out for the next 10 years.

OT, and I don't want to steal this thread. I just want to raise an issue with Nvidia support. Not related to hardware but more specifically to the "GEForce Experience" software for Nvidia. This layer provides the "Shadowplay" feature that is constantly featured in articles on the net with repect to failures to work.

It is a great feature but Nvidia has failed to make it "Break Proof" for many years

It is extremely frustration for gamers.

Best Regards

Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion and that’s what reviews of unreleased hardware is all about. Opinions.... they are reviewing engineering copies and not retail cpus. Things could change either way.

The 5950 and 3950 are equivalent to the 10600s at best and the 6900xt is equivalent to a 3080... but still lags in some games. There is a small few seconds difference between pcie 3 vs 4.... but nothing worth mentioning unless you use huge databases.....I’ve spent the last several months with the latest AMD/AMD and intel/nvidia systems... and those are my findings.

You said earlier "But if there are no other reviews that I’ve read proves[sic] otherwise..."

So, I posted a review that shows otherwise...simple as that.

Whether engineering sample etc is immaterial, things can always change (and this could fall in AMDs favor just as well). Unless we see the future then it's pointless to speculate. The real data, available right now, shows an 11700k is better than the 10900k, which obviously outperforms the 10850k you mentioned ...and *all* of them "being surpassed by AMD processors from Ryzen 5000 series."

It seems unlikely to me that you know more than the people with actual hardware in their hands doing these reviews.

As for PCIe and "a few seconds"...First of all, a 'few seconds' amounts to several *billions* of cycles to a computer CPU these days. So a few seconds is gigantic. Secondly, the real key with PCIe 4.0 isn't necessarily about a 'few seconds' performance difference. PCIe 4.0 literally *doubles* PCIe 3.0 potential...no matter about 'a few seconds', it's 200% the bandwidth. But, the real significance of PCIe 4.0 is that it's REQUIRED for upcoming technologies like DirectStorage (and RTX IO), which both will be *huge* improvements to gaming. As of right now, there is no actual, released Intel CPU/board that supports this huge potential...but AMD has been doing it for some time.

As above, it seems unlikely to me that you know more than the people at AMD and even Nvidia (who have all seen fit to move to PCIe 4.0, despite the fact you see it as "nothing worth mentioning"). Apparently, those industry professionals see it differently. The only outfit lagging here is Intel, which every reviewer who knows anything has *roundly* criticized for lack of PCIe 4.0 and failure to move from 14nm fab even in the (yet unreleased) 11th-gen flagship CPUs. Not even released yet, and already behind in a number of crucial ways: See here: >Intel's manufacturing is broken and new Rocket Lake CPUs prove it<

And, once again: This thread is actually about Zen4, which will undoubtedly improve upon the Zen3 that is currently embarrassing Intel...

...at least, you know, according to people who actually have ALL the hardware available to test, and have actually done so.

Don’t you guys know by now that KK,s opinion is the only one that counts ?



Yet you took the thread OT with your 1st post on this thread. Did you not? Your sly little dig at OBD/WOFF, why bring a GPU “issue” up on a CPU thread..not like you’ve mentioned it before is it.? Talk about Hypocrisy..unbelievable.



Anyway il leave this here as this is what imo we all might aswell do when you have an opinion on a topic that he gets involved in.



Anyway back on topic, I’m certainly looking at team red for my next CPU, excellent reviews from most reviewers, they really do see to be upping their game

Adger, every bit of what I've mentioned is directly related to the OP, in that it's all part of AMD's continued developments. The fact that there's a problem between AMD GPUs and WOFF isn't my fault, but it is definitely important relative to the topic.

And BTW I've said publicly many times it isn't OBD's fault, so it is not a "dig". It's simply a statement of fact at the moment, which as I said is a shame. It's not a dig unless you insist on trying to turn it into that.

Just because I bring perspectives to a discussion that don't agree with yours (or someone else's) doesn't mean my comments are "off topic". Nothing off topic about AMD hardware in a thread about...AMD hardware. I even said why they're related; myself (and lots of other people) prefer to build a machine all AMD or Nvidia/Intel, that's it. Factually, I worked on an AMD X570 machine not long ago that had problems booting with an Nvidia GPU, but (of course) worked just fine with an AMD card. There are legitimate reasons that using this approach makes sense.

Finally, I thought you were past your continued ad hominem attacks against me. I guess not. Unfortunate.

Not relative to this topic though is it? Which is about Zen 4 CPU,S. and fwiw I know loads of folks with team red CPU,s and Team Green GPU,s, I’ve recently built just a system for my daughters boyfriend,
in fact I’ve probably built half a dozen or more with these systems in the last 12 months never ever had a issue.ever, anyone is more than welcome to go look at YouTube reviews of AMD’s CPU,s paired with Nvidia GPU,s

..you’ll see literally hundreds of videos showing benchmarks, what are you talking about? I’ve never encountered any problems using a mix of Team red or team green and team blue.? Doesn’t look like the test reviews have either. I personally find it strange that you prefer a system to be all AMD, or Intel/ Nvidia..? Not a combination of both? Ah well each to there own.

Again

Anyway yes Hellshade the Zen 4 cpus look excellent but no doubt here in Blighty they’ll be like gold dust. Seems like every man and his dog is picking up PC hardware over here, Overclockers my local store have a waiting list on quite a few different HW components

I didn't say there aren't lots of people using AMD CPUs with Nvidia ("Green", BTW). Done many myself, doing two as we speak, as a matter of fact (both of which can be confirmed by a frequent poster in this very forum).

I just said lots prefer to build all AMD vs Intel/Nvidia - which is perfectly true. I also said I factually fixed a problem in an X570 machine (I didn't build it, it was brought to me to correct a lot of mistakes the builder made). I fixed it's intermittent boot problems by replacing an Nvidia 1030 with an AMD card.

Do I know why it was a problem? Not really. Did it work properly when I got done? Yup. Do I necessarily care why it was happening, since I fixed it? Nope. Did I get paid? You betcha.

Would you like the phone number of the person I did this for, so you can personally verify it?

Now, if you're finished with the personal attacks, I'd just as soon let the thread get back on course.

I was saying Zen3 CPUs are great, and Zen4 should be even better. Shame that "some programs" don't seem to like AMD GPUs, because "some people" like to build all AMD machines instead of Intel/Nvidia.

Supposedly "the 2021 - 2022 roadmap" for AMD and Intel. Q3 20202 for Zen 4. Hopefully, everything stays on track.

Roadmap for AMD & Intel

Definitely worth keeping an eye on,I’m planning to upgrade my rig sometime soon ( Hw components availability) cheers for the link Hellshade

Opinions = whatever you want it to be and are largely based on feelings. The Truth = Facts/data, and should not be biased by someone's opinion or feelings. I am not sure why some in here are getting uppity when someone else posts facts that directly contradict another person's post which is not supported by facts? The comment about PCIE3 & PCIE4 and a few seconds difference just had me on the floor rolling. I have always been an AMD CPU rig kind of guy, and I am currently in the middle of an AMD Ryzen 5 5600x build that kksnowbear is overseeing and teaching me through a hands on rig building process. After reading the reviews on the R 5 5600x and now having seen first hand benchmarks preformed on my new rig, I am amazed at what AMD has been able to achieve in the last 3 years. I have been thinking of building a new rig for the last three years and I was depressed that I was going to have to yield to Intel's superiority and hefty prices to build a top of the line new rig. Nothing against Intel, but I always root for the little guy, in this case AMD with my 2 previous builds. I have been pleasantly surprised with the R 5 5600x's price point and performance and I can only imagine where AMD will take the Zen 4 architecture.

It seems to me there is no need for personal attacks as this thread has been swerved here and there a bit by more than one person. As far as a 'dig', I can't see what kksnowbear wrote as being a dig when this issue/problem has already been acknowledged with some late model AMD GPUs. It is what it is, and for the ones that stick with AMD as a pure system it could be a show stopper? Not being an AMD GPU guy, I don't know the particulars, but I don't see where the personal attacks fit in as related to addressing what has already been posted. Maybe everyone just needs to check there opinions at the door and look at the facts? Of course this is where I write,......wait for it ,.............
wait for it,.......but that is IMHO.

S!Blade<><

Blade, you are KK’s perfect uninformed customer. Show me in any reputable article where pcie4.0 offers double the performance in games. You won’t find it. Why because it mostly relates to read/write performance of storage..... databases and similar software will benefit from it. Games performance will not.... maybe a FEW SECONDS faster loading. Most video cards can’t use all pcie3s bandwidth to begin with. Pcie4 won’t benefit games now or in the near future. We all have opinions, but no need to post that you were rolling on the floor because I shared my opinion. That was rude.

Oh and BTW, you should have gone with an intel 10600 instead of the AMD 5600. That’s my opinion.

Except once again, as I said above, the real reason PCIe 4.0 matters is because of upcoming technologies like RTX I/O and DirectStorage, both of which will require PCIe 4.0. These are both widely understood as the most significant performance development in gaming in quite some time.

If he'd gone with *anything* 10th Gen Intel, no PCIe 4.0 - and that's not an opinion, it's fact. Without PCIe 4.0, no DirectStorage and thus no RTX I/O. Again, not opinion, fact.

The fact is that Nvidia and AMD have both moved to PCIe 4.0, but you're still saying it doesn't matter...well...they're the ones making all this hardware. I guess that fact speaks for itself.

Intel tried the argument that PCIe 4.0 doesn't matter to games, as well - and were laughed at by a lot of knowledgeable people. Fact is they didn't want it to matter, because at the time they had no support for it.

But, whaddya know, look at RocketLake...interesting that Intel now puts PCIe 4.0 into their newest CPUs - when not long ago they're trying to convince everyone it doesn't matter. There's another fact that speaks for itself.

And now *I'm* rolling in the floor laughing, because it's just that funny. I'm not the only one (by far) who's noticed all this; they're all laughing too.

Finally, stop with the personal attacks. Blade's been perfectly informed at every step of his upgrade - and, in fact, just to be clear: He chose the 5600X himself. Though I did completely support the decision, I didn't influence that choice at all. Fact. So your personal jab at my 'uninformed customer' is not only completely uncalled for, it was also completely inaccurate.

.

déjà vu - an argument about computer components went by, and then another one just like it. The Matrix must have reset itself - again.

. . . . . .

It's a trap - GET OUT NOW!

.

If only the Matrix had used AMD. What might have been ....

.

But if you're using the latest gen AMD GPU the red pill won't work with it, and because it's a twenty-year-old franchise AMD will likely be none-too-quick to offer tech support to correct the issue. Just not that many people taking the red pill anymore you see, so it's not really worth their time trying to sort it out.






.

Lou;

All I recall is that:

One pill makes you smaller,
and one pill makes you tall,
and the one that mother gives you
Won't do anything at all

Go ask Alice.....

Robert...it is true that the one makes you smaller and one makes you tall...

But the RED ones being produced currently make you twice as small or tall, and they do it twice as fast (for less money)

Oooh I'll have some with 2 fingers of Bowmore!!

That should make me twice as high, twice as fast, Right?

OK leave out the personally directed comments please. This whole thread is OT of course I will add the OT: in front and move to Technical as it's a technical discussion about CPUs.

And what about the BLUE one?

JJJ65

Be careful with the blue one, I understand it can make you very stiff and that is not good if you are trying to squirm down the rabbit hole!

Are you kidding? really? ....
Do you know what the technologies that you're referring even mean? and they won't even be ready for a while in the future? ....

In Nvidia's own words ...NVIDIA RTX IO: GPU-Accelerated Storage Technology --- Leveraging the advanced architecture of our new GeForce RTX 30 Series graphics cards, we’ve created NVIDIA RTX IO, a suite of technologies that enable rapid GPU-based loading and game asset decompression.
This means you'll need an RTX 30 series video card to take advantage of this technology... and those aren't cheap.

Microsoft’s DirectStorage API will need an NVME to take advantage of it's higher IOPS than AHCI, otherwise, it's not that much different then what's on the market now.... Oh, and you'll need a motherboard that has the capability to install an Nvme....

So, basically, if you don't have an RTX based graphics card or an Nvme drive, the PCIe 4.0 technology is either minimally useful or useless...

Again, you're missing the point, PCIe 4.0 has to do with how fast a game can load assets, and NOTHING to do with FPS or game performance.

Wow...this is so incredibly misguided on so many levels it's really difficult to even respond...but I have to remind myself I'm doing this for the sake of others, who might read this blather and otherwise accept it.

It's almost funny (but not, really...) that every time you post anything, you're just showing exactly what you don't know about any of this stuff. Sorry...but you're wrong (again):

Per Andrew Burns, Admin over at the Nvidia forums: (https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforc...d-storage-technology/#comment-5054185320)

"RTX IO is supported on all GeForce RTX Turing and NVIDIA Ampere-architecture GPUs." Turing goes all the way back to the 16-series cards, thus RTX IO does not require a 30-series card.

As far as it being "In Nvidia's own words": You're misreading what you've blindly copied and pasted, without bothering to comprehend or being thorough in research. It doesn't say anywhere that the 30-series cards are required, nor does it say the 30-series are the only ones that will support RTX IO. The quote I've copied, OTOH, specifically says it's NOT just 30-series cards.

So, there's that.

As for when these technologies would be available, at least DirectStorage is to be released to developers this year. So it's already essentially ahead of Intel platforms that can even support it, relatively speaking, because Intel hasn't released a CPU yet that supports PCIe 4.0. By the time they do, there will be less than a year - perhaps 6 months? - before DirectStorage is available to developers. Of course, that doesn't mean it's actually in any game, I'm aware of that.

But here's what you're not taking into account: People buying systems right now, today, (and for the past year, for that matter) have a very simple choice to make: Get a system that supports PCIe 4.0 now, or not. Effectively, that means A. Buy an AMD setup now, B. Wait until Intel finally releases Rocket Lake, or C. Plan on upgrading again in the very near future to have a system that will support PCIe 4.0. That Option "C" there means someone would literally have to pay to upgrade a CPU motherboard and RAM (and with two latest-generation models, at that) which could wind up costing double what an upgrade usually costs.

With this knowledge, there's no sense at all in option C. Option B is only somewhat better - because Zen 3 CPUs are busy kicking the ever-loving snot out of even unreleased flagship Intel Rocket Lake CPUs dollar-for-dollar - but at least it will include PCIe 4.0 support. However, it's still not actually available for at least another few weeks...and when it does (finally) come out, everyone already knows what's going to happen: AMD will drop Zen 3 prices to further the blow to Intel, who will be so early in their 11th-gen release cycle that there's no way they're going to drop prices right away. So, Zen 3 will be better CPUs, at a price advantage that is likely even better than what we see today.

This is why it's relevant to this thread, and important for someone who's considering upgrading: Failing to consider these things could cause someone to make a very bad decision concerning upgrades, what's supported , and what's right around the corner. The misinformation you are posting here could cause or contribute to a bad decision.

Also: DirectStorage has everything to do with performance, but of course this is a totally lost point on anyone who persists with the (extremely misguided) notion that higher FPS automatically means better performance, and that performance can only be gauged by higher FPS.

Using max or average FPS alone as a metric hasn't been an acceptable way to view game performance for a long time now; in fact, most competent studies/reviews actually include stats on minimal and average frames per second, as well as a measurement of "1% or .1% lows" and frame times. These measurements are specifically used to show where a system can exhibit high FPS (or average FPS) but still show stuttering and/or frame rate 'drops' which disrupts the smoothness of graphics during game play. The fact is, this smoothness is actually more important than sheer FPS, because even very high frame rates that plummet at times will cause huge stutters, where even a fairly low frame rate (~40 or even less) that is stable and consistent will present a very 'playable' game. This is reflected in the fact that modern day motion pictures are still shown at 24 frames per second. (In fact, higher frame rate films have been tried a number of times through recent decades - and didn't really do well).

Everyone here knows what happens when so-called graphical game 'assets' are loaded: stutter. (There's a thread about it right now on the forum, which I actually had nothing to do with - but it shows that this is still an issue).

So, if stuttering caused by loading in assets (in real time, not at startup) can be reduced or even eliminated, that would represent an absolutely huge performance improvement.

And, what-do-you-know..."smoothness" is one area where - specifically - DirectStorage *definitely* can improve game performance, by "...bringing you larger, more detailed virtual worlds that load in as fast as your game character can move through it." (https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directstorage-is-coming-to-pc/https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directstorage-is-coming-to-pc/)

This is clearly a performance improvement that goes well beyond decreasing load times.

So, unfortunately, the facts again show you are incorrect.

By the way, the guy who wrote that blog (Andrew Yeung) works at Microsoft and actually holds a patent in VR Imaging technology. And up top, I linked to a direct quote from an Administrator on Nvidia's forums.

As I said previously: It's really hard to imagine that you know more about these things than the people I'm quoting here. People who are directly and immediately involved in the very technologies we're discussing, and whose statements directly contradict what you're trying to represent as factual.

I think the facts here speak for themselves.

(EDIT: Incidentally, NVMe has been implemented on almost every board built since the Z97 days, which was roughly 2015 IIRC...so having an NVMe drive is not at all new or in any way exorbitant. They are quite standard and have been for over 5 years. And, to be perfectly accurate, I have several X79 setups right here in my shop that are 'pre-Z97' and thus do not have M.2 slots on the board...but I can easily install a cheap AIC to put an M.2 drive in any PCIe 3.0 x4 slot to get full performance from such a drive...already done it several times. Be glad to share the drive performance benchmarks. However, that's not the issue. The issue is that technologies like DirectStorage and thus RTX IO are built around the bandwidth that PCIe 4.0 makes possible, and therefore, PCIe 4.0 will be necessary for these technologies to work).

This will be my last post answering your nonsense because you’re tone is like a bully, but you are clueless as usual. You don’t know how to converse without antagonizing and putting down someone who doesn’t see your point of view.

RTX IO and direct storage allows the nvme drive to communicate more efficiently with the rtx gpu using the direct storage API.

Also, it’s not automatically applied to all games. So, it’s highly unlikely that WOFF will benefit from this technology because developers have to make use of the API and nvidia needs to release drivers for making use of the RTX IO on WOFF. Maybe you’ll see this technology in newer games like MSFS 2020 and such.

Oh, and when did you automatically become mr. know it all?

Once again, the name-calling...unfortunate you feel it necessary to do that. The moderators here have repeatedly said this has no place in a civil discussion.

I'm sorry you're wrong, but you set yourself up for that, not me. I'm just showing facts that contradict what you're claiming. I know very well how to converse, thanks - I just call out inaccurate technical facts when I see them. Again, this is because I hope to help others who read these forums and might not know any better.

I already acknowledged it's not automatically in any game. I know that. No one said anything specifically about WOFF, just 'games' in general.

And, as I said above, the sources I've quoted are real, professional people, directly involved in the exact technologies we are discussing, and their statements contradict what you're trying to represent as fact.

I don't claim to know it all. I do research and try to be thorough and stick to the facts.

It seems you're getting upset that the facts show you are incorrect. I'm really sorry, but they are what they are.

OK the thread is done people can go and read their own tech websites for the lowdown of course.
AGAIN NO name calling allowed no matter how much someone is right or wrong.

Thanks Pol. The purpose of the links was merely to inform. Not to inflame.

I thought this thread was deleted and did not know that it was moved here. After having read the the insulting comments made by orbyxP, I decided I would write this account of how uninformed I actually am as a computer expert. Love hate or simply feeling neutral about kksnowbear, the input he brings here does not touch the surface as to the kind of person he is. So I have decided to relate my experience of corresponding with him during my pre-build planning, purchasing phase and finally meeting and working with him in person to physically build my new rig. I wrote this general review of my build experience with kksnowbear about a week and a half ago I think, but I never posted it because this thread disappeared. Without further adieu, here is my experience.

You know I am not really surprised by much that is posted here or on any Forum anymore, but your(orbyxP) insults and personal attacks are starting to piss me off. Your smug language doesn't hide the underlying assumption of your own self purported computer hardware prowess. I may not have the technical knowledge of kksnowbear or even yourself, but that doesn't mean that I was 'his perfectly uniformed customer'. Not having built a rig in over 7 years and only having done an upgrade about 5 years ago(GPU,Ram only) I needed help coming up to speed on the new tech. I approached him for help in making smart choices in planning my new semi high end rig, but that doesn't mean I just asked him to build me a system.

I set out my initial build goals and budget caps for the MB, PCU,GPU,PSU,RAM, Case and internal drives. I emailed my choices for each of the aforementioned and kksnowbear took the time through multiple PMs here on SimHQ and emails to start at the case and work his way through my list advising,critiquing, suggesting and presenting information relating the choices of what would work best within my goals and budget. One of my main goals was to future proof my new rig as much as possible considering I only do a ground up build about every 7 to 8 years. Meanwhile I was reading everything I could to help me get up to speed on the critical components so that I was able to make wise decisions before purchasing any hardware. With each component he helped to show some options that were possibly cheaper, as that is his thing to build the most powerful system within the budget or for less money. He did help me save quite a bit of money from my initial choices of the different components, which was then redirected to components that would up the capabilities of what I was soon to build. In the end though I chose these components, not at his direction but at my newly acquired knowledge which came from a lot of research on my own part and a lot of knowledge shared by kksnowbear. I chose the Ryzen 5 5600x(before I even contacted him), the G.Skill C16 3600 Ram, my 2 PCIe 4 Samsung 980 Pro NVMe M.2 drives, the BRB, the upgraded fans and a few other smaller additions that I wanted. He offered to sell me a very good condition, stress tested(99.5%) EVGA RTX2070 ac Ultra, still under warranty, for a very reasonable price. Then kksnowbear offered to sell me an almost brand new, his personal PSU used only for a few months testing purposes, semi modular Corsair Tx850m after calculating the needed wattage for my proposed system. I was intent on buying an Asus 1000watt PSU(more cowbell!!!) which would have cost at least 100$ more, but after calculating my needs, even if I upped my CPU and added an Nvidia 3080 card in the future, he showed me that an 850 watt PSU was more than enough power. He saved me from spending upwards of 200 extra dollars on an Asus gaming MB and taught me and encouraged me to read up on the Asus Prime X570 P chipset and MB. I learned that this MB suited my purposes quite well, one aspect of which was future proofing as best as I could with its' PCIe 4 expansion slots and NVMe M.2 slots. I learned from my own reading plus kksnowbear pointing out the advantages of this MB in that this was tech that only AMD is supporting currently and that RTX I/O and DirectStorage, both PCIe 4 based technologies, were most likely to be game changing technologies that I may be able to tap into in the future. Maybe this new tech will be used, maybe it won't, but I am poised to take advantage of it if it does materialize and the uptake in speed of IPC and data trasposrting as a result of them is quite promising for PC gamers. And yes technically PCIe4 plus NVME m.2 drives do load games faster. Not much faster right now, but I am willing to bet that within my hopeful 8 years use of this rig that this technology will mature and it will become an advantage for game loading and even game performance possibly. Also I learned that within this 8 year window that I can make a CPU upgrade to an AMD Ryzen 9 5900X(once the price comes down a good bit) and roughly double my CPU capacity along with a GPU upgrade to a 3000 series or even higher card release in a few years. That to me is a very important issue and was one of the most tip top goals of my original proposal.

I did pay him a technical consulting/coaching fee, at my insistence, to oversee my actual hands on assembly and testing process for this build. I insisted on this because I had never used Windows 10, NVMe drives or any SSD drive period and my last physical build was 7 years ago. He unselfishly offered to let me do the physical build at his home and offered to guide me through the pricing, purchasing, software installation, testing and to teach me the drive Imaging and Image Restore process.

Once at his home, after I assembled all of the components on a test bench outside the case, the new rig would not boot into the Bios. Nothing we did would facilitate booting this new rig. kksnowbear pulled one of his personal computers out and I stripped my MB of all parts except the PSU, and he generously pulled all of the guts out of his AMD Ryzen 3 3600 rig. We rebuilt my MB with his known working parts, and the new rig booted into the Bios immediately. He went in the Bios and checked the Bios version number and then looked on the Asus website and checked the version number of the most current Bios revision. This latest revision was at least 6 iterations above the Bios version on my brand new MB. We downloaded and ez-flashed the new Bios update and then I proceeded to rebuild my MB with all of my new components, and low and behold my new rig booted into the Bios immediately. I never would have known to look for this, much less have the spare computer parts to test and resolve this problem. Kksnowbear went on from there helping me purchase a Win10 Pro license, saving me 90+ $ from a retail version and then install windows, set up drivers and once the rig was stable, he started teaching me of the Imaging Process. There was a driver problem which was corrupting the Image Restore process and we were both quite frustrated with the computer and honestly I was frustrated with the whole thing. After convincing me to trust him and let him work on it to figure out what was going wrong, he spent his time over the next couple of days testing and rooting out the problem. He revealed that one of the drivers was corrupting the process and after reinstalling that driver in a different way he presented me with my initial Image for my new rig. He also helped me create a boot disc and walked me through actually booting the rig from the boot disk and restoring the known good Image onto my new windows M.2 drive so that I could learn the process in case I screwed something major up in the future. That day I took home my new rig and began the unpleasant journey of fighting, learning and trying to tame Win10. I hate it and wish I had Win7 again, but it is what it is.

After 4 visits to his home to complete this process I have come to know kksnowbear pretty well. Not only is he overly qualified in the computer field, spouting specs, acronyms and information way above my head sometimes, LOL, but getting to know him, he is quite a level headed straight shooting, genuinely nice man that will do whatever is needed, spend whatever time is needed and will not give up until the project is completed. When dealing with kksnowbear, It is what it is, and then you move on from there. He is completely devoted to and loves tackling anything computer related. It was my Blessing to meet both him and his wife, work and correspond with him, and employ kksnowbear to help guide and teach me during this new rig building process. This is the 3rd rig which I have had a hands on involvement in the last 18 years and I learned the most during this present build. Some of you may say,' why would you pay for him to help you'? If anything I still owe him for the amount of time, research, dozens of Pms, emails, texts, phone calls, meeting me at Microcenter to purchase my CPU which he had reserved for me when there were no 5600s available and the effort he put into my project to help make sure I was happy when it was complete. That is why I paid him and it was money well spent IMHO. If anything I received information overload because kksnowbear wanted to be sure I had the information to make wise decisions and purchases that weren't a waste of money regarding the original build goals. Yes I had a Build plan that I submitted to him to state my goals for my new rig and this is where it all started and I am happy to say that all goals have been achieved in my new rig.

I get the impression that some may think kksnowbear comes off as a know it all. First off there is no such person relating to computers, or anything else in this world for that matter, and he will readily admit that he does not know everything computer related. I will tell you this though, if he doesn't know, he will find out the facts, do his own testing if possible and then report back once he has the understanding and knowledge of the subject in question. If those that have butted heads with kksnowbear's knew of the testing setup that he employs, then you would know that he does real world testing A LOT and only posts the truth in data whether it is what one wanted to hear or not. He doesn't just read testing data or reviews and blindly accept whatever is printed. He does real world testing whenever it is possible for him and trust me he has a lot of hardware that he gladly jigsaw puzzles together and records first hand data from the testing results. I don't jokingly call him Dr. Frankenputer just to be funny. This dude has a laboratory and I was half way expecting Igor to pop his head in at any moment and offer his assistance when I was at his home. Again, it was my Blessing to work with you kksnowbear.

We all have opinions, I get it, but they are best left at the door when dealing with computers. It's just 1s and 0s, and the data is the proof in the pudding. Kksnowbear and I didn't build the most powerful rig in my build, not by a long shot. One thing I do know is that this rig most likely will be pretty much future proof for some years to come and that PCIe 4 will be a part of that future. The Asus Prime x570 P MB I purchased was 149$(normally up to 259$) on sale and supports PCIe4 in both the Expansion slot and the NVME M.2 SSD slots. Maybe the current GPUs don't use all of the available bandwith in PCIe 3 currently, but rest your bottom dollar that most likely PCIe 4 will be the new high benchmark in the gamer's PC builds in just a few years. Anyone who honestly thinks different need only look at the jump from PCIe2 to PCIe 3 in the not to distant past. Is PCIe4 a must have right now? Nope, but it will be in the future. You heard it here first and even Intel is now working on using PCIe4 after putting out a lot of information downplaying and even rebuking the need for PCIe4 as a next step in PC evolution. Technology never slows down, it is how they drive the market and sustain viable profits from any perspective PC buyer or builder. Bigger, faster, more eye candy, it is a viscous cycle but it is not going to stop anytime soon. I have a system that is pretty close to top of the line, that is the way I always build new rigs, but in 6 months from now, it will be old news. If tech progresses in the direction it looks to be going, I will at least have one big upgrade ahead of me which will at the least almost double my CPU capacity and with RTX I/O and DirectStorage possibly finding its' way into the market plus at least one or two GPU upgrade cycles, I feel pretty good about the choices I ended up making with kksnowbear's help. As far as going with Intel and PCIe 3, well I am an AMD guy and I will stick with who is driving the Tech and Spec end of the market at a lower price while looking at the future advances coming down the pike thank you very much. So yea, come to think of it, if that makes me the 'perfect uninformed customer' for kksnowbear, then it was my pleasure to be just that and come out the other end with a nice, well running AMD rig. Thanks kksnowbear for all you did to help me Sir!

Thus endeth my PC building experience with kksnowbear, but more importantly I have made a new friend who, after the completion of this rig, offered to help with any new information that I may need(I am looking at a new 32" curved Gsync monitor, possibly a Samsung G7), ongoing support for my new rig and the offer to help clean and upgrade my old Girl, the AMD Phenom II 965 BE with the GTX 770 that I have been using the last 8 years. So I still have another session of being kksnowbear's 'perfect uninformed customer' when we tackle the old girl and give her a freshening up. I have to say, I am going to enjoy being put into that 'perfect uninformed customer' position once again, as I feel I am in good hands when I do.

S!Blade<><

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Well said Blade, well said indeed. And my own experiences enlisting kksnowbear's expertise and advise on computer builds and upgrades over the years mirrors your own, though I've never had the pleasure of actually visiting his lab, you lucky dog!
Does he rub people the wrong way at times? Indeed he does. Will he debate a point to the bitter end? Most assuredly. Does he know of what he speaks when it comes to this subject? Absolutely.
Love him or hate him, he doesn't blow smoke, unlike a CPU I fried many years ago because I thought I knew how to overclock it, which I likely wouldn't have done had I known him then and could have asked his advice about it.

Cheers,

Lou


EDIT: I feel I should also mention that the rig he helped me put together last fall, (on a budget I might add), is as of this morning still in the top 20 out of all i5-10600K CPU builds using any GPU models or brands, and in the top 40 out of all RTX 2070 Super GPU builds using any CPU models or brands. Impressive, in particular when you consider this is out of the tens of thousands of recorded benchmark results posted at 3DMark from builds around the world, with new results being added daily.

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For what it's worth, let me jump in hear and also state that I have had nothing but positive dialogue with KK over the past few months evaluating and sharing opinions over a possible new build I would like to undertake in the near future.

I echo Lou's experiences.

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Ha Ha! Trust you Lou, to give me my morning smile!!

I'm sorry I'm just now getting to post this; if you know me, then you know that right now I'm getting slammed with some RL concerns and a bunch of PC work (a good problem to have, but often doesn't feel like it lol). I certainly do not wish to seem ungrateful by not responding sooner, and I apologize for my delinquency.

Allow me to say how moved and indeed touched I am by the show of support for my efforts. It is something I take a great deal of pride in; I've enjoyed helping everyone who has approached me.

Blade - your comments describe my work so well that I'd like to use it as a commercial I am absolutely thrilled you allowed me the opportunity, and that (in spite of setbacks) we ultimately prevailed. That's actually quite typical...as you've now seen, things can go south in a hurry...but as one of my Navy supervisors told me years ago, you just have to 'outlast the problem'

I say all the time that anyone can walk into the computer parts store (or more often these days, go online), buy a bunch of parts without really understanding a lot about what they're getting into. The remarkable thing is that, most of the time, it actually works...it really can lead to a certain 'false sense of security' when things all seem to go well. But, things don't always go well, as you've seen. I do come across a lot of mistakes (big and small), and some that have caused complete system failures. As I mentioned, it's often just having experience that makes the difference. (Well, that and a couple rooms full of parts lol) . Speaks volumes that you were wise enough to seek assistance with a new build, and to remain involved the whole time...honestly you worked just as hard as I did, just absorbing all the stuff I'm constantly throwing at you.

I am especially grateful you're happy with the outcome, and I do genuinely appreciate the considerable detail you've provided concerning my shop ("lab" ) The truth is, few people realize the amount of effort and cost that go into the work I'm doing, and it's honestly nice to have that recognized. Finally, let me say it was a real pleasure having you here, and I look forward to our future projects! (Always more to do lol) I will always remember "Black is the New Bling"

Lou, I've known you longer than perhaps most anyone here...always been great talking and trading with you, and I am glad to have been of help with your upgrade as well. You have a genuine monster there, still capable of holding its own against some of the highest-end hardware out there - and on a budget too! (Be still my beating heart ) I love the execution of 'giant killers' such as yours...a real testimonial to a well thought-out approach to the project, and I'm delighted to see it's still kicking booty

Robert...you've been patient enough to indulge all my ramblings, and I'm grateful you're allowing time for trying to make the best choices. As we've seen in our discussions, there are a ton of choices...but if you're willing to do the legwork, hopefully you can get the features and functionality you want at a price you can live with I am looking forward to the day you get your build from the drawing board to the desktop, and I'm hoping to be there the entire way.

Now, if you'll all be good enough to excuse me, I have an appointment shortly with a younger gamer who wants 100+ FPS performance in modern AAA titles *and* a lot of RGB 'bling' on a very tight budget...*sigh* Time to get back to work.