#4547830 - 12/09/20 05:37 PM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: RSColonel_131st]
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,803
Forward Observer
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,803
Central Arkansas,US of A
|
I bought the first collector's DVD release of the movie which included all the deleted scenes plus a rather long documentary of how they made the movie. They used the "Rose" frigate as the HMS Surprise for the scenes at sea. They had to get special permission to film around the Galapagos Islands. The "Rose"-- a real reconstructed frigate, was also used in some of the "Pirates of the Caribbean" movies.
However, they also built a full-scale replica of the lower 2/3rds of the ship mounted on hydraulics in a huge tank filled with water built very close to the ocean somewhere on the Baja peninsula. This was done so the real ocean could be seen in most of the shots. The replica was used for much of the filming since they could control filming angles better They also hired a bunch of sailing experts well versed in the historic period to extensively train all the actors on how to crew a period-correct English frigate.
The movie is sort of a combination of two of the Patrick O'Brien novels with one of the books "The far side of the World" being set during the war of 1812. Consequently, in that book, the enemy frigate was not a French ship but was instead a USS Constitution-class frigate.
Of course, having the HMS Surprise defeating a US ship would not have gone over too well with American audiences, so for the movie, they switched the enemy to that of a Napoleonic French frigate.
Cheers
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
|
|
#4547832 - 12/09/20 05:38 PM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: Forward Observer]
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,468
PanzerMeyer
Pro-Consul of Florida
|
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,468
Miami, FL USA
|
I bought the first collector's DVD release of the movie which included all the deleted scenes plus a rather long documentary of how they made the movie.
Cheers I believe I have the same one. Did yours come with a really nice fold out map of the South Atlantic?
“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
|
|
#4547836 - 12/09/20 06:00 PM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: PanzerMeyer]
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,803
Forward Observer
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,803
Central Arkansas,US of A
|
I bought the first collector's DVD release of the movie which included all the deleted scenes plus a rather long documentary of how they made the movie.
Cheers I believe I have the same one. Did yours come with a really nice fold out map of the South Atlantic? Yes, that and a small booklet plus two separate DVDs all in a nicely decorated package with a sleeve for the whole set.
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
|
|
#4547837 - 12/09/20 06:02 PM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: RSColonel_131st]
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,351
Lieste
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,351
|
HMS Rose is a Seaford class post-ship (20 guns) and around 20ft shorter than L'Unite. She needed some modifications to make her quarterdeck more substantial for the quarterdeck ordnance to represent a light frigate for the filming.
It is a silliness for a 9lb frigate or post ship to attempt to take a 24lb frigate with a crew of around 450 men (roughly double the full crew of the smaller ship), even if fitted with carronades. (The spar deck of the 24lb frigates is far above the quarterdeck of a tiny 9lb corvette, so boarding is improbable, and very unlikely to succeed).
Much larger Pallas and Lively class frigates of 18lb were taken with ease by the US frigates - to the extent that an order was given that none of the RN frigates of 18lb should engage the US 24lb ships alone, requiring a minimum of two ships in the squadron, and the Endymion was only successful because she was fighting to 'kill' while President was fighting to cripple and flee... and then she temporarily struck until able to 'win' the race to repair made off before Endymion could send a prize crew across to take her. The Tenedos and Pomone ran her down and engaged from the opposite side (but did little new injury before she struck again). The major threat to her though was the much heavier (but no larger) Majestic frigate of 32lb (a Razee'd Canada class 74).
I think the original was supposed to represent something similar to the Essex (a 12lb frigate, historically raiding whalers), or maybe Chesapeake (18lb) (taken by Shannon, a Leda frigate of 18s), before first O'Brian and then the filmmakers amped up the situation to silly.
|
|
#4547839 - 12/09/20 06:03 PM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: Forward Observer]
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,468
PanzerMeyer
Pro-Consul of Florida
|
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,468
Miami, FL USA
|
Yes, that and a small booklet plus two separate DVDs all in a nicely decorated package with a sleeve for the whole set.
Yup, that's the one! Hard to believe I bought that from Amazon about 15 years ago.
“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
|
|
#4547842 - 12/09/20 06:10 PM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: Lieste]
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,468
PanzerMeyer
Pro-Consul of Florida
|
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,468
Miami, FL USA
|
HMS Rose is a Seaford class post-ship (20 guns) and around 20ft shorter than L'Unite. She needed some modifications to make her quarterdeck more substantial for the quarterdeck ordnance to represent a light frigate for the filming.
It is a silliness for a 9lb frigate or post ship to attempt to take a 24lb frigate with a crew of around 450 men (roughly double the full crew of the smaller ship), even if fitted with carronades. (The spar deck of the 24lb frigates is far above the quarterdeck of a tiny 9lb corvette, so boarding is improbable, and very unlikely to succeed).
Much larger Pallas and Lively class frigates of 18lb were taken with ease by the US frigates - to the extent that an order was given that none of the RN frigates of 18lb should engage the US 24lb ships alone, requiring a minimum of two ships in the squadron, and the Endymion was only successful because she was fighting to 'kill' while President was fighting to cripple and flee... and then she temporarily struck until able to 'win' the race to repair made off before Endymion could send a prize crew across to take her. The Tenedos and Pomone ran her down and engaged from the opposite side (but did little new injury before she struck again). The major threat to her though was the much heavier (but no larger) Majestic frigate of 32lb (a Razee'd Canada class 74).
I think the original was supposed to represent something similar to the Essex (a 12lb frigate, historically raiding whalers), or maybe Chesapeake (18lb) (taken by Shannon, a Leda frigate of 18s), before first O'Brian and then the filmmakers amped up the situation to silly. Thanks for this excellent post! It was a great read.
“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
|
|
#4547848 - 12/09/20 06:39 PM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: RSColonel_131st]
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,351
Lieste
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,351
|
When I state Essex was a 12lb frigate, she had been built for 12lb guns, then lost all but 6, receiving a large battery of 32lb carronades on upper deck and her fo'c'sle and qtr'deck (40 in total)), in which state she was taken.
Having been outmanoeuvred following a fore-topmast being carried away and then taken in a close range fight in which Phoebe and Cherub pounded her from positions on her quarters (from where they holed her with 18lb, 32lb carronades and 18 and 6lb guns), which could mostly only be replied to by the movable carriage guns, all transferred to ports existing and newly cut in her quarter as carronades pivots and slides attached to the hull were not portable and couldn't be brought to bear. Springs on her anchors were shot away preventing her keeping her broadside and the carronades in action).
There is a mythos around her that she was shot from *outside her range* by guns largely equal to and less than her own, when the statement given by Porter and by Hillyer was that she could only bring the chase guns to bear (which is a term used for angles, not for range).
The longest range stated is just over the line of metal range for both guns and carronades (which would be 700-750 yds for all of the weapons in use), and most of the engagement was at 'pistol shot' (400yds*) down to 250yds.
*This is the definition given by Adm Lord Rodney (his footnotes to "An Essay on Naval Tactics") when the author was discussing the relative failure of British fleets to come to decisive engagement because they approached in line from windward and were disabled by French gunfire between (or outside) the line of metal ranges to the pistol shot (400yds), at which point the disordered British column was disrupted by manoeuvring to avoid collisions, while the French wore away to repeat the process on the opposite tack from a longer range, repeated until the British fleet had to abandon their attempts. This should be born in mind when looking at O'Brian/Aubrey declaring Carronades as 'only useful within pistol shot' and 'barely reaching a quarter mile (compared to their line of metal to 700 yds and throwing shot to 1200+ at 5 degrees with a carriage elevation of 11) - it is obvious he erroneously intends yard-arm to yard-arm, as do most other modern authors.
|
|
#4547868 - 12/09/20 09:32 PM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: Lieste]
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,945
Nimits
Hotshot
|
Hotshot
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,945
United States of America
|
I think the original was supposed to represent something similar to the Essex (a 12lb frigate, historically raiding whalers), or maybe Chesapeake (18lb) (taken by Shannon, a Leda frigate of 18s)
Correct. The novel The Far Side of the World is quite obviously a fictionalization of the Essex cruise. Why the movie specifically made the Acheron a 24lb Humphrey's frigate (which would have been improbably expensive for a privateer and, you are correct, should have been able to blow a 9lbs or even 12lbs frigate out of the water without working up a sweat) as opposed to a "normal" frigate (which would still have been big enough to outgun Surprise) I do not know, other than maybe the producers did not think movie goers would have been attune enough to the difference between a 9lbs and an 18lbs frigate.
Last edited by Nimits; 12/09/20 09:32 PM.
|
|
#4548204 - 12/12/20 05:03 AM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: RSColonel_131st]
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,252
Coot
Pilgrim
|
Pilgrim
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,252
These United States of America
|
Just watched M&CTFSOTW gain after probably a decade or more. I only have the original DVD. Excellent movie. At the beginning of the movie, you see them ringing the watch bell(I'm not sure what its called) after the hour glass is turned and they ring it six times. Isn't the double rings of eight rings total a full watch of four hours? I think they rang the bell only six times and you see the crew shifting. So if only six bells were rung that would have been only a three hour watch because each single bell is a half hour? So was that only a three hour watch or were signifying what time it was somehow? And isn't a dog watch two hours? I'm trying to wrap my head around how they did that and what the six total double bell rings meant at the beginning. I also forgot about the old timer getting his skull cored out and a coin being used to patch up the hole. Those were some tough bird sailors back when sailing ships on the open ocean and back when surgery was a less friendly activity. They're still around but there's just something about those tall ships and age of sail era vessels and folks who plied their trade at sea working them. If they still sell it I'd love to get the copy Panzer is talking about. I loved the LOTR movies also. I liked the first POTC for what it was but like you all mentioned, they got ridiculous beyond that. Master and Commander is the kind of movie that deserves more entries.
Last edited by Coot; 12/12/20 05:06 AM.
John 10:1-30 Romans 10:1-13
|
|
#4548246 - 12/12/20 04:42 PM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: RSColonel_131st]
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,075
semmern
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,075
Oslo, Norway
|
Billy Boyd. But of course He is the only one of the cast that didn’t quite fit his role, IMO. Even though Paul Bettany was different from how Maturin is described in the books, he did such a stellar job that he really became his character!
In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
|
|
#4548257 - 12/12/20 06:16 PM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: semmern]
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,945
Nimits
Hotshot
|
Hotshot
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,945
United States of America
|
Billy Boyd. But of course He is the only one of the cast that didn’t quite fit his role, IMO. What did you think was missing from his performance or appearance?
|
|
#4548893 - 12/18/20 01:34 AM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: Alicatt]
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,572
Arthonon
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,572
California
|
I'm not sure, but I think I went out on that boat for a mock battle a few years ago. I didn't get any good photos of it because I was on it, but I got photos of the ship we were "fighting" Here is onboard: And looking over the side: Firing a cannon: And our opponent:
|
|
#4548984 - 12/18/20 08:37 PM
Re: Master & Commander - Deleted Scenes
[Re: Nimits]
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,075
semmern
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,075
Oslo, Norway
|
Billy Boyd. But of course He is the only one of the cast that didn’t quite fit his role, IMO. What did you think was missing from his performance or appearance? For starters he was supposed to be a big, burly fellow. Mediterranean Fleet boxing champion. And I just don’t think he portrayed the typical British plucky lower rank all that well. The sort of «right, Sir, let’s get it done» type. I’m not saying he didn’t do a good job, because he did, but it’s probably more the fact that I had a different mental picture of him from reading the books.
In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
|
|
|
|