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#4547120 - 12/04/20 05:48 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Battle of France 10 May to 25 June was fought with two speed props alone.
Battle of Britain 10 July to Oct 31, was fought initially with two speed props, (and with Spitfires only having a single flap setting (full for landing - take-off flaps being 'closed' over a wooden chock, released by cycling the flap)), the CSP were being fitted from 24 June, but not complete until 16 August.

It was fortunate that during this period the main target was channel shipping, as had the Germans been ready to assault Fighter Command at the end of June or early July, the fighter response would have been inferior.

The transition had completed a little earlier than I had thought - old recollections of the reports on channel actions had bled into the early stage of the Luftwaffe assault on Britain, so the two were conflated slightly. ISTR there was an issue (possibly minor or 'technical only' with the failure mode of the hydraulic CSP, compared to some other implementations but I would have to look for the sources to check what the details were.

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#4547122 - 12/04/20 06:04 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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To me the Whirlwind is like the Mosquito in that it looks right.


Q: What did socialist countries use before candles?
A: Electricity
#4547136 - 12/04/20 07:42 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Quote
there was an issue (possibly minor or 'technical only' with the failure mode of the hydraulic CSP,


failure mode was normally fully fine- ie high rpm/high drag- not good as a 'runaway' prop could wrench the prop or whole engine from the plane- if the conrods didn't exit the crancase first- both events not being conducive to the cleanliness of the pilot's underwear.
CSP's in twins are normally fail coarse/feathered

#4547145 - 12/04/20 08:47 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: Lieste]  
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Originally Posted by Lieste
The Spitfire had higher growth potential, but in 1940 it is questionable that it was the better aircraft.


Ehh, the Spitfire was significantly faster; I know, speed is not everything, but ~350 mph vs the Hurri's ~310 at the altitudes the Luftwaffe was operating was an important advantage.

I agree the Hurricane was capable, but I disagree there is much question as to which aircraft was better. Had the RAF been able to, they definitely would have replaced their Hurricanes with Spitfires in 1940.

#4547157 - 12/04/20 09:13 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted by Chucky
To me the Whirlwind is like the Mosquito in that it looks right.


What on Mosquito doesn't look right? I think it's a very pretty plane.


[Linked Image]

I do hope they build them again

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...uito-plans-will-allow-wooden-wonder-fly/


[Linked Image]
#4547159 - 12/04/20 09:19 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Was it possible to manufacture and maintain them operationally as rapidly and efficiently? Did they have an overwhelmingly superior combat performance? The combat returns show 60%+ of claims made by the Hurricane squadrons.

Sure, later in the war, better evolutions were vastly superior (as a short range fighter or middling range recce aircraft) than the Hurricane, but during the BoF and BoB, I am not totally convinced.

Wars often turn on the logistics issues and usability rather than on spreadsheet performance numbers, and logistically the Hurricane was a better machine in the early war.


A worse fighter was the Blenheim IF - though once it was removed from day operations and pressed into service as a night fighter against the blitz it proved at least somewhat useful. The derivative Beaufighter improved on it's performance and capabilities, and was a useful aircraft later in the war.

#4547161 - 12/04/20 09:26 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Maybe I missed it but the use on 100 octane avgas really helped the RAF fighters. Lets not hear about American (US) deliveries of this fuel as the UK was well stocked with 100 octane fuel.

11 Group was the main opponent of the Lw and a/c coming to that Group would have the CS props fitted to squadrons that had been rotated out returning.


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4547180 - 12/04/20 10:45 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

Lets not hear about American (US) deliveries of this fuel as the UK was well stocked with 100 octane fuel.


BAM 100, largely developed by Standard Oil Company of New Jersey. You're welcome.


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4547185 - 12/04/20 11:02 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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The US subsidiary of the Anglo-Dutch company Shell certainly produced limited amounts of 100 octane aviation fuel for the USAAC from about 1937, but they did so by blending ordinary paraffinic petrol and iso-octane, producing an effective low-benzole high-lead fuel suitable for US aircraft engines. (The iso-octane, by the way, was obtained by the patented alkylation process developed by the British-owned Anglo-Iranian Oil Company's Sunbury Research Laboratory in 1935, for which Humble Oil had paid over US$ 8 million for a licence). However, this low-benzole fuel was *not* suitable for British aircraft engines.

Quite independently from the US experiments, Anglo-Iranian Oil had been developing from 1936 another high octane leaded fuel for British aviation engines based on high-benzole Venezuelan crude oil blended with iso-octane from the British refinery at Abadan. Bulk supply contracts were placed by the Air Ministry in 1937 for this fuel and it was put into wide-spread use in the RAF in March 1940 (dyed green to distinguish it from the 87 octane, which was blue).

In November 1940, UK supplies of high octane aviation fuel were derived from three Esso refineries handling Venezuelan oil, two in the US and one in the Caribbean (about 45%), the Anglo-Iranian Oil refinery at Abadan (25%) and Shell refineries in Borneo (30%). Half the British supply was non-US in origin.

Source for above: "The History of the British Petroleum Company" (Cambridge University Press, 1994). You might also consult the British Official History volume entitled "Oil", by Payton-Smith, (HMSO, 1971).

Another link to a discussion, https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/use-of-100-octane-fuel-in-the-raf-during-bob.16305/

Last edited by KraziKanuK; 12/04/20 11:07 PM.

There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4547190 - 12/04/20 11:33 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Originally Posted by KraziKanuK
However, this low-benzole fuel was *not* suitable for British aircraft engines.


Hence BAM 100 (British Air Ministry 100), developed largely by Standard Oil Company of New Jersey as stated.


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4547203 - 12/05/20 02:00 AM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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For some reason, KK has a wee bit of a problem acknowledging Americans doing anything in any war, or field of endeavour.

Too bad for him, but Happy Holidays to him anyway. Here's some holiday delicacies from the good old USA in advance! spam_can



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#4547209 - 12/05/20 04:05 AM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Maybe we can start arguing over the War of 1812 now too? wink


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4547217 - 12/05/20 10:10 AM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
Originally Posted by Chucky
To me the Whirlwind is like the Mosquito in that it looks right.


What on Mosquito doesn't look right? I think it's a very pretty plane.


[Linked Image]

I do hope they build them again

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...uito-plans-will-allow-wooden-wonder-fly/



Eh? That's what I said confused


Q: What did socialist countries use before candles?
A: Electricity
#4547221 - 12/05/20 11:04 AM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted by Chucky
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
Originally Posted by Chucky
To me the Whirlwind is like the Mosquito in that it looks right.


What on Mosquito doesn't look right? I think it's a very pretty plane.


[Linked Image]

I do hope they build them again

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...uito-plans-will-allow-wooden-wonder-fly/



Eh? That's what I said confused



Hermann Göring's opinion of the Mossie! Petulantly blaming others for failures as usual. Piqued when Mossies overflew and disrupted his and Goebbels' speeches and broadcasts, which was a tad cheeky!

'It makes me furious when I see the Mosquito… I turn green and yellow with envy.
The British, who can afford aluminium better than we can, knock together a beautiful wooden
aircraft that every piano factory over there is building, and they give it a speed which they have
now increased yet again.
What do you make of that?
They have the geniuses and we have the nincompoops!'

The Hun tried to copy the manufacturing technique, but the adhesive was defective, causing fatal structural failures.



#4547234 - 12/05/20 01:37 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: Nixer]  
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Originally Posted by Nixer
For some reason, KK has a wee bit of a problem acknowledging Americans doing anything in any war, or field of endeavour.

Too bad for him, but Happy Holidays to him anyway. Here's some holiday delicacies from the good old USA in advance! spam_can



Stuff it Nixer. The original comment was with regards to a large amount of 100 octane on a ship that arrived just in time and saved the RAF and GB. There was enough 100 octane in stock in GB.


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4547236 - 12/05/20 01:41 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: BD-123]  
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Originally Posted by BD-123


The Hun tried to copy the manufacturing technique, but the adhesive was defective, causing fatal structural failures.

Only the replacement adhesive was defective. The original manufacturer had been collateral damage during an RAF bombing mission.


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4547237 - 12/05/20 01:56 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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The Casein glue was a problem when Mosquito was deployed to India and South East Asia, where it would soften in the warm humid air.

#4547243 - 12/05/20 03:07 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Originally Posted by KraziKanuK
Originally Posted by Nixer
For some reason, KK has a wee bit of a problem acknowledging Americans doing anything in any war, or field of endeavour.

Too bad for him, but Happy Holidays to him anyway. Here's some holiday delicacies from the good old USA in advance! spam_can



Stuff it Nixer. The original comment was with regards to a large amount of 100 octane on a ship that arrived just in time and saved the RAF and GB.




I think your pre-emptive "now don't anyone dare mention anything the Americans might have done to help" is proof enough of your bias.

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK
There was enough 100 octane in stock in GB.


That there was any BAM 100 anywhere was thanks to Americans.


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4547249 - 12/05/20 03:53 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Originally Posted by Lieste
Was it possible to manufacture and maintain them operationally as rapidly and efficiently? Did they have an overwhelmingly superior combat performance? The combat returns show 60%+ of claims made by the Hurricane squadrons.

Sure, later in the war, better evolutions were vastly superior (as a short range fighter or middling range recce aircraft) than the Hurricane, but during the BoF and BoB, I am not totally convinced.

Wars often turn on the logistics issues and usability rather than on spreadsheet performance numbers, and logistically the Hurricane was a better machine in the early war.


Your were primarily discussing performance rather than tactics. I am not disputing that in reality in the summer of 1940 the Spitfire manufacturing was not yet ready to handle the full burden for Fighter Command, but your comments seem to suggest that the RAF was as well or better served by the Hurricane as the Spitfire, and I find that doubtful. Unlike in the case of say, the P-40E or F4F-4 vs the A6M2, or the later P-51D vs P-47N vs Bf 109K vs Fw 190D arguments, the speed differential between Hurricane Mk I and the Spitfire Mk I (or the Bf 109E) was enough to significantly affect the tactics available to it and what engagements it could prosecute (or escape). My point is not whether the Hurricane was better than no fighter at all, or even if it was better to have 400 Hurricanes or 300 Spitfires, but rather that if Fighter Command could have had 700 Spitfires instead of 400 Hurricanes and 300 Spitfires, they would have taken the former (and rightly so). There was no tactical (as opposed to logistical) reason to keep the Hurricane in service over the Spitfire, even in 1940.

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK


Half the British supply was non-US in origin.


Which would suggest half of it was US in origin.

Good luck fighting an air war without half your fuel.

Last edited by Nimits; 12/05/20 04:08 PM.
#4547263 - 12/05/20 05:00 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Maybe we can start arguing over the War of 1812 now too? wink


Now THAT was a hell of an air war!!


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