Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#4547063 - 12/04/20 10:09 AM The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,085
NoFlyBoy Offline
Senior Member
NoFlyBoy  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,085
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/...er-plane-which-won-the-battle-of-britain

I am surprised by this. Any who read or heard about the Battle of Britain knows the RAF had two fighter planes that help England win the battle in the sky against them intruding Nazi Luftwaffe: the Spitfire and the Hurricane and more Hurricanes than Spitfire at the beginning of the Battle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire_(early_Merlin-powered_variants)#Mk_I_(Type_300)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Hurricane_variants#Hurricane_Mk_I

opening paragraph of the article:

Quote
Eighty years ago, a small single-seat fighter was largely responsible for defeating Germany’s attempts to invade Britain. But it wasn’t the Spitfire.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4547069 - 12/04/20 10:44 AM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,151
Chucky Offline
Veteran
Chucky  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,151
UK
This shouldn't be news to anyone on here. Likewise the Halifax gets the same treatment, it's always the Lancaster in the limelight.


“Dictators ride to and fro on tigers from which they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry.”
#4547070 - 12/04/20 11:03 AM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,085
NoFlyBoy Offline
Senior Member
NoFlyBoy  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,085
This shouldn't be news to anyone in England. I am SMDH that BBC wrote this. I can see American news writing this cos they usually have no idea what's going on with anything that is not America related. But not BBC writing this.


[Linked Image]
#4547071 - 12/04/20 11:11 AM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,151
Chucky Offline
Veteran
Chucky  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,151
UK
It's the BBC,what do you expect? It's a cess-pit of fake news and diversity box-ticking.


“Dictators ride to and fro on tigers from which they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry.”
#4547072 - 12/04/20 11:12 AM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,085
NoFlyBoy Offline
Senior Member
NoFlyBoy  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,085
It is? I go on BBC to get my American news cos I don't trust American News no more, except for FOX.


[Linked Image]
#4547073 - 12/04/20 11:24 AM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,065
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,065
Miami, FL USA
rolleyes

'Nuff said.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4547076 - 12/04/20 11:47 AM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,282
BD-123 Offline
Old Scroat
BD-123  Offline
Old Scroat
Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,282
Naunton Beauchamp Worcestershi...
Ah! The poor old Hurribus!
It's contribution to neutralising the 1940 Axis air offensive over Britain was, as you surmise, much overlooked until recently in favour of it's more glamorous sister the Spitfire.

This was mainly due to contemporary propaganda and media publicity focusing on the Spitfire. There were 'Spitfire Funds' in which contributions were made by the rich, aristocracy and privileged, town and village collections providing the funds for donating whole aircraft, down through society to children donating a few coppers. Many Commonwealth and Empire nations and cities provided finance too, to have a Spitfire named for them. "Give us your aluminium pots and pans, and we will turn them into Spitfires!" was a campaign at the time; purely morale boosting as the metal was too low grade for such implementation.
There is no evidence of suchlike for the Hurricane.

Once outmoded tactics were dropped, such as tight formations and 'Fighting Area Attacks' established to defeat unescorted Bomber fleets coming from Germany before the shocking change of circumstances due to the swift and unforseen defeat of France, these two primary aircraft became a 'dream team', the Spits taking on the escort, the rugged Hurri the bombers. The Hurricane was a more stable gun platform, with a better Cone of Lethality with it's guns close together unlike the superior performing Spit whose spaced guns were less concentrated due to wing flex. The Hurri with it's simpler construction of mainly tubular steel and fabric could withstand more punishment and be quickly repaired than the stressed monocoque Spitty, with the advantage over the Luftwaffe of combat over the homeland for recovery of damaged airframes..
Yet inexplicably, it is more difficult and time consuming to restore a Hurricane compared to a Spit in present times, which is why there are more of the latter airworthy today.

Another factor to the unsung success of the Hurricane, which accounted for two-thirds of the 'kills' July 10th to October 30th in that year was the fighting tenacity of the Polish squadrons operating it, following arduous and hazardous journeys to these shores after the overrunning of their nation to carry on the fight, thirsting for revenge. 303 Squadron comprising Poles and Czechs was the highest scoring squadron in the period, and the top scorer was a Czech in that outfit. Without their and other nationals' courageous contribution (including Americans) the outcome of the Battle may have been different.

Imagine being one 12 of you in this theoretically outclassed and outmoded aircraft facing 300+ bandits, 3 or 4 times a day, every day during those unusually fine summer days over England.



#4547077 - 12/04/20 11:54 AM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,065
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,065
Miami, FL USA
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
This shouldn't be news to anyone in England..



You'd be surprised. On my "Battle of Britain" (the film) dvd there is an excellent documentary about the making of the film and there is footage taken from 1969 which shows MIchael Caine walking around the streets of London asking random Londoners what they knew about the battle. The majority of them really had no clue about the battle and some of them had only "heard" of it.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4547078 - 12/04/20 11:58 AM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,151
Chucky Offline
Veteran
Chucky  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,151
UK
A very well written and informative post as usual BD-123. Didn't we purchase a Spitfire during the conflict? I see mention that Metal Box may have purchased 2 but details are sparse.


“Dictators ride to and fro on tigers from which they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry.”
#4547080 - 12/04/20 12:15 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: Chucky]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,282
BD-123 Offline
Old Scroat
BD-123  Offline
Old Scroat
Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,282
Naunton Beauchamp Worcestershi...
Originally Posted by Chucky
A very well written and informative post as usual BD-123. Didn't we purchase a Spitfire during the conflict? I see mention that Metal Box may have purchased 2 but details are sparse.


Got to teach these Foreign Johnnies what's what old chap eh? smile

I didn't know about the 'Worcester Spitfires'. All I could find was reference to this this artwork:
"depicts Supermarine Spitfire P8045 ‘City of Worcester ’ over the ‘Faithful City’ on its production test flight in 1941. The original painting is in Dilip Sarkar’s collection."
painting


Dilip is a member of a FB Group I belong to, I'll see if he will expand on this. Do you remember the 'Gate Guardian' spitfire at Perdiswell, there before the Javelin? Now restored and exhibited in a Glasgow Museum.



#4547081 - 12/04/20 12:33 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,151
Chucky Offline
Veteran
Chucky  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,151
UK
Yes I do, very faint memories though. The Gloster Javelin 'Gate Guardian' was more my era.

Here's an article briefly discussing the Worcester 'Metal Box Spitfires' but with no follow up LINK . I did find more info on Metal Box (Nottingham) that did purchase one,called 'Metabox'.

Last edited by Chucky; 12/04/20 12:36 PM.

“Dictators ride to and fro on tigers from which they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry.”
#4547083 - 12/04/20 12:36 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,009
Lieste Online sigh
Senior Member
Lieste  Online Sigh
Senior Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,009
Hurricane was far more important than the Spitfire, and could be pushed much harder. An untwisted elliptical wing is the pinnacle of theoretical aerodynamic efficiency, but has a harsh all-or-nothing stall, while a tapered wing has a mid-span stall, much more informative to the pilot and which can be 'flown' right on the edge of stall for that tiny part of the flight where evasion or pressing the shot were important. The Spitfire wing was also very complex and expensive to machine, compared to the tapered and much simpler design for the Hurricane.
Hurricane also had better visibility over the nose, undercarriage better suited to hastily repaired RAF fields, and the recovery of damaged aircraft. The Spitfire had higher growth potential, but in 1940 it is questionable that it was the better aircraft.

#4547091 - 12/04/20 01:53 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,085
NoFlyBoy Offline
Senior Member
NoFlyBoy  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,085
I learn many things about the Hurricane, the Spitfire and the Battle of Britain through BD, Chucky and Lieste. Thank you.


[Linked Image]
#4547098 - 12/04/20 02:58 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: Chucky]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,030
NH2112 Offline
Veteran
NH2112  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,030
Jackman, ME
Originally Posted by Chucky
This shouldn't be news to anyone on here. Likewise the Halifax gets the same treatment, it's always the Lancaster in the limelight.


It’s not much different with the US, everyone thinks of the F6F, P47, and P51 when it was really the F4F, P40, and, to a lesser extent, the P39 that got us through the darkest days of the war, especially in the Pacific.


Phil

"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils."
#4547101 - 12/04/20 03:13 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 192
bolox Offline
Member
bolox  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 192
well the 'really forgotten' fighter of BoB was this, the 'Crikey'. Left on the sidelines and didn't come properly into operational service till just after the battle.



was never operational for BoB - but it could have been. Faster than the Spit MkI (down low) and 4 * 20mm in the nose could have made a big mess of Luftwaffe bombers.

If the engine had been fully developed (or Merlin fitted) could have been very interesting ar15

#4547102 - 12/04/20 03:27 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,440
Trooper117 Offline
Hotshot
Trooper117  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,440
UK
I always loved the Whirlwind... such a good looking aircraft.

#4547104 - 12/04/20 03:41 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,065
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,065
Miami, FL USA
The Whirlwind would no have no doubt been very effective against bombers.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4547105 - 12/04/20 03:48 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,009
Lieste Online sigh
Senior Member
Lieste  Online Sigh
Senior Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,009
But as the French and Germans found out, heavy fighters struggle when there are escorts (or interceptors) present, and each airframe and each loss would be the value of two 'real' fighters.

A better priority would be earlier introduction of CSP, only available on later modifications of the Spitfire and Hurricane and not universally on BoB era fighters, and the development of the Hispano cannon for fitting to the wings of Spitfires and Hurricanes both (though perhaps a mixed MG/Cannon fit while teething problems exist rather than the risk of going right to all cannon fit as on the Hurricane II).

#4547116 - 12/04/20 04:51 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,085
NoFlyBoy Offline
Senior Member
NoFlyBoy  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,085


[Linked Image]
#4547117 - 12/04/20 05:02 PM Re: The forgotten fighter plane which won the Battle of Britain [Re: Lieste]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 192
bolox Offline
Member
bolox  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 192
Quote
A better priority would be earlier introduction of CSP, only available on later modifications of the Spitfire and Hurricane and not universally on BoB era fighters


'all' frontline fighters had been converted to CSP by mid Aug, ie the start of the real battle-pedantic maybe stirthepot
http://spitfiresite.com/2010/06/battle-of-britain-1940-constant-speed-propellers.html
Yes, it would have been better if introduced earlier, as would earlier development of cannon armed Spits- 19Sqn hated their 1B, jammng causing assymetric recoil etc

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Calling Ajay
by Nixer. 01/16/21 12:58 AM
BEEE S. No Miltary Grade AR-15!
by NoFlyBoy. 01/14/21 10:32 PM
Fallout New Vegas: The Frontier
by Crane Hunter. 01/14/21 09:41 PM
In other news...
by Nixer. 01/14/21 05:45 PM
Australia wants to kill a bird from Oregon
by NoFlyBoy. 01/14/21 02:42 PM
WW1 airplane machineguns
by oldgrognard. 01/14/21 02:07 AM
Updated product review: Bunn Coffee Maker
by Dart. 01/14/21 01:27 AM
Getting on a bus
by KraziKanuK. 01/11/21 06:58 PM
Stuff that Matters
by Nixer. 01/11/21 02:37 AM
Snow
by Bill_Grant. 01/10/21 11:18 PM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0