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#4542132 - 10/25/20 01:11 AM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by Mike Dora
Bader was certainly a very brave man, but to this day he remains unpopular within the RAF for his arrogance, misguided “Big Wing” strategy, and above all for his internal politicking (as a mere sqn ldr) which led to the ouster of the architects of our Battle of Britain victory, ACM Dowding and AVM Park.



Have you ever seen this? It gets really interesting at the 28:17 mark.





Sadly this was recorded only a few months before Baders death.


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#4542151 - 10/25/20 10:52 AM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
Originally Posted by The_Admiral
Well - the blunder did rob us of a battleship showdown. But instead we had Yamato and the entire battleline pretty much sent packing by half a dozen tin cans & a handful of planes in a show of bravery that doesn't get the recognition it deserves.

Can't help but believe that having Lee's battleships around wouldn't have made it much more enjoyable for the IJN ^^



Agreed. Few military subjects interest me more than Leyte, and I'm happy to have steered some discussion in this direction. You bring up an interesting point Admiral. Some argue that had the battle taken place with Lee that the Japanese would have made a better account of themselves since Kurita's general attack order in the battle with Taffy 3 was the root cause of their failure to inflict a more punishing blow. They argue that a meeting of the battle lines would have seen more order and effectiveness from the Japanese fleet.

Without getting in to my analysis of the missed clash, I find it doubtful, but not without some merit. At the very least I think if Lee and Kurita had indeed met at the strait that the Japanese would have deployed their destroyers more effectively than they did in the battle with Sprague, and that would have made an impression.



I recently read that the US sailors facing this seemingly formidable foe at Leyte were aghast at the poor gunnery rate of fire and accuracy of the IJN.



#4542170 - 10/25/20 01:49 PM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: BD-123]  
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Originally Posted by BD-123
Originally Posted by DBond
Originally Posted by The_Admiral
Well - the blunder did rob us of a battleship showdown. But instead we had Yamato and the entire battleline pretty much sent packing by half a dozen tin cans & a handful of planes in a show of bravery that doesn't get the recognition it deserves.

Can't help but believe that having Lee's battleships around wouldn't have made it much more enjoyable for the IJN ^^



Agreed. Few military subjects interest me more than Leyte, and I'm happy to have steered some discussion in this direction. You bring up an interesting point Admiral. Some argue that had the battle taken place with Lee that the Japanese would have made a better account of themselves since Kurita's general attack order in the battle with Taffy 3 was the root cause of their failure to inflict a more punishing blow. They argue that a meeting of the battle lines would have seen more order and effectiveness from the Japanese fleet.

Without getting in to my analysis of the missed clash, I find it doubtful, but not without some merit. At the very least I think if Lee and Kurita had indeed met at the strait that the Japanese would have deployed their destroyers more effectively than they did in the battle with Sprague, and that would have made an impression.



I recently read that the US sailors facing this seemingly formidable foe at Leyte were aghast at the poor gunnery rate of fire and accuracy of the IJN.



By1944 Japan had lost most of its well trained sailors and airmen and were never really replaced adequately. The Battle of the Philippine Sea was clearly indicative of that.


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#4542211 - 10/25/20 08:49 PM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by BD-123
Originally Posted by DBond
Originally Posted by The_Admiral
Well - the blunder did rob us of a battleship showdown. But instead we had Yamato and the entire battleline pretty much sent packing by half a dozen tin cans & a handful of planes in a show of bravery that doesn't get the recognition it deserves.

Can't help but believe that having Lee's battleships around wouldn't have made it much more enjoyable for the IJN ^^



Agreed. Few military subjects interest me more than Leyte, and I'm happy to have steered some discussion in this direction. You bring up an interesting point Admiral. Some argue that had the battle taken place with Lee that the Japanese would have made a better account of themselves since Kurita's general attack order in the battle with Taffy 3 was the root cause of their failure to inflict a more punishing blow. They argue that a meeting of the battle lines would have seen more order and effectiveness from the Japanese fleet.

Without getting in to my analysis of the missed clash, I find it doubtful, but not without some merit. At the very least I think if Lee and Kurita had indeed met at the strait that the Japanese would have deployed their destroyers more effectively than they did in the battle with Sprague, and that would have made an impression.



I recently read that the US sailors facing this seemingly formidable foe at Leyte were aghast at the poor gunnery rate of fire and accuracy of the IJN.



By1944 Japan had lost most of its well trained sailors and airmen and were never really replaced adequately. The Battle of the Philippine Sea was clearly indicative of that.



Eh, that excuse does not really hold water for Kurita's force. Most of those ships had taken few casualties to that point in the war, and the crews were largely intact.

#4542215 - 10/25/20 10:38 PM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Perhaps the greatest single blunder in history, was Shaw Muhammad II of Khwarazm's decision to provoke a war with a guy named Genghis Khan.

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#4542222 - 10/26/20 01:08 AM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Thank you PM,

No, not seen. Very interesting, from the days when “This is Your Life” could cover characters who were real characters. One must give Bader that!

BTW had the immense privilege of being introduced to AVM Johnson at a Battle of Britain cocktail party at RAF Sealand in the late 1980s (he had learned to fly there in 1940, and had retired locally after his Air Force career).

While we were of course all in awe of him, _he_ was paying deference to a Captain Thompson, a little old chap in a wheelchair with a photo album of him and his teenage friends on recce biplanes on the Western Front in 1917.

Every generation of the Service in the same room at the same time. Unforgettable.

Last edited by Mike Dora; 10/26/20 01:20 AM.
#4542226 - 10/26/20 02:12 AM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Wasn't Leyte Gulf battle later part of The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot? Both fought in the Philippines sea. https://www.history.navy.mil/browse.../battle-philippine-sea/turkey-shoot.html


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#4542228 - 10/26/20 03:29 AM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: oldgrognard]  
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No, they had nothing to do with one another. The Turkey Shoot took place when the U.S. was taking back the Marianas Islands. Saipan, Tinian and Guam. June of 1944. Leyte Gulf took place the following October after MacArthur landed in the Phillipines.
And, I too, think that the Battle of Leyte Gulf, which is actually several battles, is one of the most fascinating fights of the Second World War.


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#4542229 - 10/26/20 03:40 AM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: oldgrognard]  
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"Eh, that excuse does not really hold water for Kurita's force. Most of those ships had taken few casualties to that point in the war, and the crews were largely intact."

Yes, his blunder is certainly as bad as Halsey's was. He had the battle won, really, but did not know it. The bravery of Taffey Three's Destroyers, CVE's and those Wildcat and Avenger pilots should get as much noteriety as the men who stormed Normandy Beach.


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#4542275 - 10/26/20 02:41 PM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch

And, I too, think that the Battle of Leyte Gulf, which is actually several battles, is one of the most fascinating fights of the Second World War.


Yes indeed Pooch. There is so much to it, not only what did happen, but speculation of alternatives. Over on the Battlefront forum (Combat Mission game) there was a thread recently about films we'd like to see and I said without a doubt it's Leyte. The first Kamikazes, the action in the Sibuyan and fishing the Japanese commander from the brine, and Surigao, the death of Musashi. Halsey's actions and decisions, and the resulting battle off Samar with the charging Japanese fleet and the heroism of the Taffy escort, just to name a few. It has all the makings of an epic film.

It's a infinitely interesting and intriguing battle. For years now I have thought of starting a series of threads here at SimHQ called What If:, where we discuss alternative histories based on the assumption that major military events took a different path based on a different strategic or operational decision. You know, what if the Germans had gone full out for Moscow, or what if they hadn't attacked the Soviet Union in 1941. What if the allies had made the cross channel invasion in 1943 as the Americans wanted. But the lead was to be What If: Bull Hadn't Run?

The speculative analysis of what would have occurred had Lee and Kurita met at the headwaters of the strait is fascinating to me and the sort of thing I love to discuss and the sort of thing I wish still was the focus of discussions at this site.


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#4542276 - 10/26/20 02:50 PM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
or what if they hadn't attacked the Soviet Union in 1941.




Here's an even more interesting alternate history question in my opinion: What if Hitler had never invaded Poland? Would Germany have remained a fascist country for several decades like what was the case with Spain or would the Third Reich regime have not been able to survive after the eventual death of Hitler? Would there have been a major power struggle like what we saw in the USSR after Stalin died?

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 10/26/20 02:51 PM.

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#4542277 - 10/26/20 02:53 PM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: oldgrognard]  
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See, this guy gets it ^ smile

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#4542285 - 10/26/20 04:20 PM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: oldgrognard]  
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I really wish more movies played with these what-if scenarios. I had such hopes for The Man in the High Castle but it turned out to be hokey.

#4542291 - 10/26/20 04:49 PM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Here's another one:

France wins the French & Indian War instead of Britain.

1. Would the American Colonies have been handed over the France as part of the peace deal?
2. Would the American Colonies have eventually rebelled against French rule just like they did against British rule?
3. Would I be speaking French today instead of English?

Lots of fascinating questions for sure.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 10/26/20 04:50 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4542296 - 10/26/20 05:22 PM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: oldgrognard]  
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OG or one of the mods could create a subforum called Military History or similar, and maybe it would get used?

Make a subforum called Shooters too while you are at it please, and then I can get my gaming threads out of Community Hall.

Oh, and RPGs and racing sims too if this is a buffet smile


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#4542328 - 10/26/20 11:37 PM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by Pooch
or what if they hadn't attacked the Soviet Union in 1941.




Here's an even more interesting alternate history question in my opinion: What if Hitler had never invaded Poland? Would Germany have remained a fascist country for several decades like what was the case with Spain or would the Third Reich regime have not been able to survive after the eventual death of Hitler? Would there have been a major power struggle like what we saw in the USSR after Stalin died?


It seems unlikely the Third Reich would have continued indefinitely without a major war. On the of the major theses of Mein Kampf (and really, the title sort of gives it away) was that constant low-level conflict and territorial expansion were necessary to the national life of a "virile" people. Hitler anticipated a series of limited wars, picking apart the old western European empires and the new eastern European states at will. If it had not been Poland, Hitler would have gambled badly on some other venture.

Moreover, there is decent evidence the Hitlerian economic recovery was based on a proto-"plunder" economy; in other words, the Germans were borrowing against the future chance of absorbing their neighbor's GDP to finance their near term prosperity (and military buildup).

#4542329 - 10/27/20 12:16 AM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: oldgrognard]  
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See, now that is a "what if" scenario that I can't see happening because with Adolph Hitler at the helm, there is no way there was not going to be a WW2. But to me, the most fascinating "what if," as far as WW2 is concerned, is what if England had lost the Battle of Britain. It was a close thing, and certainly could have happened. The world we know, today, would have been completely different.
The war in the West would have been over. There is no way it could have gone on without Great Britain. Hitler could have thrown the entire might of The Third Reich at the Soviets. Europe and the Middle East would have been his. All of the natural resources and all of the oil he needed. I have no doubt in my mind the USSR would have been defeated. Winter or no Winter. Von Paulus would not have had Hungarian and Romanian units protecting his flanks. He would have had German divisions there and they would not have crumbled. The 6th Army would not have been surrounded. Stalingrad would have fallen to the Nazis.
Canada would have been at war with Germany, but now, cut off from Europe, she would have been alone, hoping that the United States would join her. The U.S. would certainly have goten into it, eventually. Japan, seeing Germany's victory, would undoubtedly have attacked the U.S. in the Pacific. With things going well in Russia, Germany would have declared war on the United States and U-Boats would have joind the Japanese in making the seas around the North and South American continents a shipping graveyard.
Things would only get worse from there. I really think the Battle of Britain was THAT important.


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#4542340 - 10/27/20 03:18 AM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
No, they had nothing to do with one another. The Turkey Shoot took place when the U.S. was taking back the Marianas Islands. Saipan, Tinian and Guam. June of 1944. Leyte Gulf took place the following October after MacArthur landed in the Phillipines.
And, I too, think that the Battle of Leyte Gulf, which is actually several battles, is one of the most fascinating fights of the Second World War.



Thank you for clarity.

Both were big turning battles in favor of the USA.





Now what if Ho Chi Minh letter to Secretary of State Robert Lansing at the 1920 Versailles Peace Conference was not ignored by Lansing and the USA? Will the Vietnam War exist 35 years later? Woodrow Wilson's 14 points of light was only for the countries the USA like and not for everyone like he said.

Quote
To his Excellency, the Secretary of State of the Republic of the United States, Delegate to the Peace Conference.
Excellency,
We take the liberty of submitting to you the accompanying memorandum setting forth the claims of the Vietnamese
people on the occasion of the Allied victory.
We count on your great kindness to honor our appeal by your support whenever the opportunity arises.
We beg your Excellency graciously to accept the expression of our profound respect.
For the group of Vietnamese Patriots
[signed] Nguyen Ai Quoc (Nguyen the Patriot)
56, Rue Monsieur le Prince, 56
-ParisDemands of the Annamese People
Since the victory of the Allies, all subject peoples are filled with hope at the prospect that an era of right and justice is
opening to them by virtue of the formal and solemn engagements, made before the whole world by the various powers
of the agreement in the struggle of civilization against barbarism.
While waiting for the principle of national self-determination to pass from ideal to reality through the effective
recognition of the sacred right of all peoples to decide their own destiny, the inhabitants of the ancient Empire of Annam,
at the present time French Indochina, present to the noble Governments of the entente in general and in particular to
the honorable French Government the following humble claims:
(1) General amnesty for all the native people who have been condemned for political activity;
(2) Reform of Indochinese justice by granting to the native population the same judicial guarantees as the Europeans
have, and the total suppression of the special courts which are the instruments of terrorization and oppression against
the most responsible elements of the Vietnamese people;
(3) Freedom of press and speech;
(4) Freedom of association and assembly;
(5) Freedom to emigrate and to travel abroad;
(6) Freedom of education, and creation in every province of technical and professional schools for the native population;
(7) Replacement of the regime of arbitrary decrees by a regime of law;
(8) A permanent delegation of native people elected to attend the French parliament in order to keep the latter informed
of their needs;
The Vietnamese people, in presenting these claims, count on the worldwide justice of all the Powers, and rely in
particular on the goodwill of the noble French people who hold our destiny in their hands and who, as France is a
republic, have taken us under their protection. In requesting the protection of the French people, the people of Annam,
far from feeling humiliated, on the contrary consider themselves honored, because they know that the French people
stand for liberty and justice and will never renounce their sublime ideal of universal brotherhood. Consequently, in
giving heed to the voice of the oppressed, the French people will be doing their duty to France and to humanity.
For the group of Vietnamese Patriots
Nguyen Ai Quac
(Ho Chi Minh)


What if 2 countries who supported the USA, France and England after WW1 were not ignored at the Versailles Peace Conference and left without any gain: Japan and Italy.


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#4542342 - 10/27/20 04:33 AM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: oldgrognard]  
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My Uncle Melvin on my Dad`s side oldest brother was taken out of the war being a second wave ground assault coming after the first.
Japs had figured out there Mortar assault correction just in time to hit the man next him seriously wounding my Uncle only the guy
who was next him with part of a leg in a boot, he was erased. My uncle had serious injuries from his demise. Bone fragments from
him left him unable to walk the rest of his life without leg braces and canes.


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#4542345 - 10/27/20 07:17 AM Re: Interesting historical blunders [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy


What if 2 countries who supported the USA, France and England after WW1 were not ignored at the Versailles Peace Conference and left without any gain: Japan and Italy.


You should take a look at the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye for Italy. Maybe you could understand why some italian ski athletes have germanic last names.

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