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#4540402 - 10/11/20 06:51 PM The next 5-year build  
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I'm probably not the only one contemplating a new build so I thought I'd throw this out on the forum so any interested parties can benefit. RAF_Louvert's recent thread has got me thinking about options, including copying his build outright (sadly with just the one 2070Super)

It's been 5 years and my current rig is showing it's age a little. I can still run WOFF at 2K with nearly maxed settings. (See attached screenshot) although last night I flew over the battle of Poelcappelle at 12,000 feet and things got a bit choppy. 1918 isn't that far off in the current DID campaign, and WOFF 2020, its time come round at last, slouches toward Flanders Fields to be born. thumbsup I'm using NVidia inspector to drive my graphic settings at 4x AA and 16x AF, but that's a separate convo.
My recent upgrade to a 32" 144hz monitor has smoothed things quite a bit, and the X-Rite i1 DisplayPro Color Calibrator has been nearly life altering given how much time I spend staring at this screen.

Current machine:

CPU - i5-6600K OC'd to 4.4 GHz
MOBO - Asus ROG Maximus VIII Hero LGA 1151 Intel Z170
RAM - G.SKILL TridentZ Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) Intel Z370
GPU - ASUS GeForce GTX 1070 8GB ROG Strix OC Edition
System drive - Samsung 950 M.2 256GB SSD (waaaay too small. It's a struggle to free up even 60GB of space)
Storage - WD Black 2TB
PSU - Corsair TX 650
Monitor - LG GK32850F 144hz (Freesync 2 but runs GSYNC)
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit (build 19041)


*** EDIT - New build on page 2 of thread HERE


Clearly I will need a new build at some point soon but is there any sensible upgrade left to this rig, besides a more powerful GPU?
I actually had my eye on the RTX 2070 Super which Louvert has doubled up in his recent build but suspect it would be massive overkill with my current CPU. OTOH, if I'm going to use a 2070 Super in the new build, does it make sense to get one now to improve the current rig.

My goal is a build to last/be upgradeable for the next 5 years.

Attached Files Oct 2020 WOFF settings.jpg
Last edited by epower; 12/31/20 03:59 AM.
#4540427 - 10/11/20 09:02 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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Epower, I can recommend someone for build advice. biggrin
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#4540432 - 10/11/20 09:23 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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I can think of quite a few upgrades - but it depends on the 'end goal' as well as time and money, to be honest.

For example, if you're determined to move into more recent chipsets, there might be little reason to try upgrading what you have. That's probably more of a personal decision, but newer CPUs (9th or 10th gen) are (or can be) more powerful. If you want one of those, then obviously you have to change motherboards, etc.

Comparatively, if you're on a tight budget, then you're compelled to find ways to get what you can out of what you have. Z170 isn't new, but has most of the recent features implemented so that it's worth considering.

I see at least one potential compromise, but it does depend on what you want to do.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 10/11/20 09:49 PM.
#4540481 - 10/12/20 11:44 AM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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I just noticed the line stating your goal "is a build to last/be upgradeable for the next 5 years."

TBH, these are two different things. While I feel it is entirely possible (and least expensive) to upgrade the current machine to a build that will 'last 5 years', doing so will probably mean you wouldn't have many options left for upgrades at that point ('be upgradeable for 5 years'). On the lasting 5 years: Many people today are still using machines based on 5-year-old technology (and even well beyond that). And the machines are performing well enough at what these people want to do. The 6th gen CPU you have right now is still very common, and still keeping up just fine with mainstream AAA titles (with the right GPU, of course).

Let's look at Lou's case, for example: Up until this recent upgrade, he was using a 2nd gen I7-2700k, which dates back almost 10 years (although I don't know exactly when he got it, the point is that the technology itself of that CPU is almost 10 y/o). Along the way, unless I'm mistaken, he also upgraded his machine at least one major step by adding a second 970 GPU, which (not to speak for him) I am certain increased his performance a good bit; perhaps approaching 50%. And I believe he got several years out of it after that, and with decent performance. I believe it would qualify for the 'last 5 years' criteria.

A similar upgrade could apply to someone in your position. However, as above: At that point, I'm pretty sure Lou understood he was at the end of the upgrade road for that platform - hence, most recently, his latest upgrade choice was to change the motherboard, CPU, RAM, and GPU. I personally believe that Lou has very closely followed what is the best to keep a computer that's reasonably capable, while keeping costs to a minimum, and it's a method that I advocate most often with those I do builds for people (perhaps 10-15 per year, though it's slowed down due to the cooties).

Now, as I mentioned previously: If you're determined to move to a more recent chipset, then your options are more or less defined by that preference. Again, although your Z170 isn't so far back that there are significant limits to the platform, upgrading the current setup won't give you a new chipset.

Once again, it really depends on what you want.

You also touched on an an idea; a 'bridge' approach (getting the GPU you will keep for 5 years now, and using it on your current platform for awhile, then keeping it to 'bridge' another upgrade within the 5-year period). This also has the benefit of less cost now (though with the specific intent of substantial cost within the 5-year 'window'). So, let's talk about the 2070Super card idea.

First of all, I do not think of the 2070S as "massive overkill" for your setup. I have owned/tested a 2070S, and it's true they are powerful cards. They fall below a 1080Ti (about 10%) and a bit above a 1080 (about 15%) - based on scores I have from running all three of these cards on various platforms (using 3DMark FireStrike; granted a synthetic benchmark but still excellent for this type comparison). I would concede the 2070S might be very slightly 'overmatched' (more on this below) for a 6600K, but there's room for improving that in your setup as is, and it's not horrible at your 1440p resolution anyway. So, I'd have to disagree with 'massive overkill'. I think you'd get a suitable performance gain for the money, keeping in mind the ultimate goal is down the road, when you finally replace the platform.

TBC...

#4540524 - 10/12/20 03:31 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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To continue with the 2070S idea:

I wanted to talk about the concept of "bottlenecking", which often comes up in these discussions. When you say "massive overkill' it does bring to mind (for me at least) the concept of a GPU being 'bottlenecked' by a CPU. I wanted to touch on this a bit, and explain why I prefer to say 'overmatched'/'undermatched', rather than 'bottlenecked'.

If you put a 1080Ti in your current system, it's going to perform like a 1080Ti. That's it. It's not going to mysteriously drop to the level of a 1050, or anything like that. It doesn't even necessarily drop below the level of a 1080, as I will show in a moment. Same goes for the 2070S you've mentioned.

It is absolutely true that, irrespective of GPU, running a lesser CPU will reduce overall performance by at least some degree. It is therefore true, of course, that running a lesser CPU with the same GPU will lower it's overall performance somewhat, depending on the CPU performance. But that's only because the CPU is an inherent part of the overall performance in the first place. There is actually very little impact on the graphics performance of a GPU if it's paired with a lesser CPU, and I feel that saying 'bottleneck' is not an accurate representation.

I suppose it depends on how you feel about the term bottleneck to begin with, but for me it's a very negative term, implying the movement (performance) of something is severely hampered, and I just don't think it's anywhere near 'severe'.

The reason I think this matters is because you can read all over online "(CPU x) will bottleneck (GPU a)" and it causes certain perceptions. Something like the perception that a 2070S is 'massive overkill' with a 6600K - nothing personal intended, of course.

With all that said, let's look at some actual data. These are actual scores from my database of system tests I've performed with the hardware listed, right here in my shop (BTW, I typically test systems several times, and I have many hundreds of results, I just only enter the most significant results into the database for simplicity and sanity lol):

[Linked Image]

This first image shows seven tests with two different 1080Ti cards on three different motherboards, using four different CPUs. Should cover a lot of bases smile The blue and orange outlines are around the two different cards, since the MSI 1080Ti Armor (A) consistently scored higher than the Zotac 1080Ti Founder's Edition (FE) I used. The data here is sorted by the "G" column (Graphics score), and you can see that the CPUs with higher Physics (P/PT columns) scores also have higher Overall (O) scores. This is also seen in the 1/2/3/4 columns, which are FPS values for each test that 3DMark runs.

Now look at the "G" column. You'll see that it's not substantially different - on the order of 5-6% - when I ran a very conservative i5-4460 at stock, vs i7-7700K overclocked to 5G or a i7-4790k overclocked to 4.6G, using the same GPUs. These are two of the best CPUs of their generations, easily outdoing the 4460 Physics score by 76-100% (double). Yet the actual Graphics scores only change by a small amount.

It's true, the Overall scores vary a lot more than the Graphics scores do, and the Overall score is the closest indicator of actual performance differences (along with the 1/2/3/4 FPS scores). So having a lesser CPU will obviously affect your overall game performance (which shouldn't be a surprise), and of course that's to be reasonably expected, especially considering the cost difference of the respective CPUs in question.

However, I don't think it rises to the level of 'severe', and TBH I think it's perfectly reasonable to accept that a CPU that costs a fraction of another, isn't going to deliver the same performance. But 'bottlenecking'? Not so sure. I used a very conservative CPU - the i5 4460 only has 4 cores/4 threads unlike the i7s, has 25% less internal cache, and runs at about 1GHz less than the others (plus, the delta is bigger when the others are overclocked). And, in this case, the 4460 on that motherboard is actually only running at PCIe 2.0 speed. All in all, it's a big difference; I was really trying to test one of of the spectrum compared to the opposite end here.

Now, let's look at a different group of data:

[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/kwxmkvfiec6gdjf/CompareB.jpg?dl=0[/img]

This shows tests using three different GPUs, with very different CPUs. Look at the blue box, and note the 7700K CPU at 5.1G has a 22.5% higher Physics (PT) score than the 4790K at 4600. Yet, both the Graphics and Overall scores are fairly close; the 7700k only scores about 6.8% better Overall and 1.8% better in the Graphics score. That's a difference, for sure - but it's not huge. Probably hard to even notice in most any game, TBH.

But that's not even the most significant part about this data. What's really important to notice is that, in spite of various CPUs/Physics scores, the 1080Ti doesn't drop below Graphics performance of a 'vanilla' 1080 or a 2070Super, which is exactly what you'd expect. It only barely falls behind the 2070S Overall score when the 2070S is paired with a 8086K running at 5.2G, and that's a genuine monster of a CPU, six cores and the absolute highest Physics I've ever tested (save a single, 10-core Xeon server CPU) , outscoring even the 7700K at 5.1G by a whopping 37%. At that point, yeah, the overall score impact is big; enough that a 2070Super can actually exceed a 1080Ti - but even then, only by 4.3%, and *still* not higher in the Graphics score.

So, my conclusion is that it takes a tremendous difference in CPUs to change the performance of a given GPU, relative to other GPUs. Even with fairly big differences in CPU performance, it's rare to see a GPU drop in performance to the level of a lesser GPU, unless you just really, really push it. I did it on purpose and at an absurd level - who matches a 1080Ti with an i5-4460?

It also takes a very big delta in CPU performance, given the same GPU, before what I believe is severe "bottlenecking' will be an issue

Attached Files CompareA.jpgCompareB.jpg
Last edited by kksnowbear; 10/14/20 11:48 AM.
#4540530 - 10/12/20 03:57 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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So, back to your upgrade question. Here are my questions for you:

Are you actually OK upgrading what you have if a viable case can be made, or do you really just want to move on?

Do you require all new parts, and latest series (i.e. 10th gen CPU, 30-series GPU if Nvidia)? I ask this because it not only can mean cost is the biggest factor, but also can rule out all other options, depending upon your answer. As above, if you really want a later chipset (400, maybe 500) you're pretty much locked in to what your options are.

Are you opposed to multi-GPU?

Have you considered other CPUs/GPUs (AMD, in other words)? (I should mention that a couple folks already said they have issues with some textures using AMD cards, but I don't know if that applies across the board. I do know AMD has some very impressive hardware lately, and usually less expensive that Intel/Nvidia. I'd say it's worth considering, if it can be determined that anyone runs WOFF without adverse effects on a late-model AMD GPU).

Last edited by kksnowbear; 10/12/20 04:43 PM.
#4540540 - 10/12/20 05:00 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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KK,

Thank you very much for taking the time to put that information together. Reading your explanation and seeing real world testing data is far more useful and informative than the bench marking sites I've been visiting online.

Yikes! You posted while I was typing this up so let me jump directly to your questions.

Budget is not tight, but neither is it a price is no object situation. Copying Lou's build (single 2070S) is a viable option.

OTOH, AMD's latest teasing of their Nov 5th release is intriguing, especially as to Mobo and CPU options. As a consequence, I've been giving more thought to the "Bridge" idea (new GPU now) but it is my intention to replace the current platform in the coming months.

WOFF is the major focus of my gaming now, and will be through Nov 11, 2021. Given the reported issues with AMD graphics cards and WOFF, I'm inclined to stick with Team Green for the GPU.


Last edited by epower; 10/12/20 09:17 PM.
#4540590 - 10/12/20 10:33 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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I'm glad if it helps.

So it looks like an AMD motherboard/CPU might be a good possibility for you. There are some great CPUs...I actually have a Ryzen5 3600 which scores Physics at 60.71, closer to that 8086K I described above at 68.03 than any other CPU I scored in FireStrike (and that 8086K is just a monster). But that Ryzen CPU cost about half what some of the CPUs it can outperform! (The 8086K was $600 when new I believe, though I got it second hand). And I haven't even tried to overclock it yet, which I am sure will ratchet it up another notch.

I have it on an MSI X570-A Pro motherboard, which unlike the Intel boards, already has PCIe 4.0 on it - so I put a Corsair MP600 PCIe 4.0 M.2 drive on it, and it lives up to the specs, for sure and certain...I got very near 5000 reads and over 4000 writes. Amazing; leaves my PCIe 3.0 M.2 drives in the dust.

The other big deal with PCIe 4.0 is it's the next gen standard in GPUs; already in the 30-series Nvidia cards. Maybe if you're considering an AMD board, it's worth waiting on the GPU to actually get a 30-series to enable it running at PCIe 4.0. You're not running at 4k right now, but maybe you will be in the next 5 years, if you have a GPU that can deal with it (and the 30 series are supposedly very good at 4k). This is especially true if you're not interested in multi-GPU (and I'm not sure how many AMD boards support SLI/NVLink anyway...).

You'll need a card on the order of a 3080 to get what Lou's getting out of his new setup (if we accept the 3DMark FireStrike figures). And if you're only interested in new, retail hardware, the 2070's going to cost ~500 anyway, but if you wait it out, a 30-series card might wind up being competitive cost/performance.

So, I dunno. Maybe a 'team Red' motherboard/CPU and wait for a 30-series card....?

#4540713 - 10/14/20 12:15 AM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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So for those of you keeping score at home, the current plan is to wait until the November 5 release of AMD's new Zen3 Architecture. Looks promising but until reviewers build test benches to compare AMD to Intel performance, it's all conjecture. We shall see.

I may very well end up with KK's proposed option of a 'team Red' motherboard/CPU and a 30-series 'team Green' card.

See you in a month.

#4540762 - 10/14/20 10:41 AM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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Just remember that which ever you pick, CFS3/WOFF only uses the single fastest core in the game, so having the fastest multicore CPU means nothing to CFS3/WOFF (if you are buying a new PC for WOFF like I do).


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4540780 - 10/14/20 12:07 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: Panama Red]  
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Originally Posted by Panama Red
Just remember that which ever you pick, CFS3/WOFF only uses the single fastest core in the game, so having the fastest multicore CPU means nothing to CFS3/WOFF (if you are buying a new PC for WOFF like I do).


Not exactly accurate.

First of all, 'having the fastest multicore CPU means nothing to WOFF' is not at all true. Depending on exactly what/how you're measuring, the fastest multicore CPU could also be the best single core performer. You have to factor in that modern, multi-core CPUs run a single core much higher than the overall CPU base clock, as long as the thermal and electrical limits are not exceeded. In fact, this is what "single-core" overclocking has been doing forever: Running fewer cores at higher speeds, in order to achieve better performance for apps that are single-core dependent. Slowing down across multiple cores when tasked with apps that favor more cores.

Also, clock speeds - even in WOFF - are not everything. Different CPUs have different architecture, and the upcoming AMD release we're discussing is about to prove that (assuming it delivers as promoted). Back in the day, Pentium 4 Northwood "EE" CPUs had very high single core speeds - 3.8G, among the fastest single core CPUs ever, and as fast/faster a base clock speed than even many modern 9th and 10th gen CPUs...yet no one could seriously recommend a P4 today. That's because way more than just clock speeds have changed to increase CPU performance.

Things like internal cache, the "instruction pipeline", and even thermal profile are parts of every CPU that aren't necessarily directly related to speed and factually have caused CPUs with higher clock speeds to perform *worse* than CPUs with lower clock speeds.

A lot of the 'speed' gains in newer CPUs over the years has nothing to do with clock speed, and it doesn't necessarily depend on more cores, either. Again, the AMD Nov 5th release should show this quite clearly. The amount of "Instructions Per Clock" (IPC) has more to do with overall CPU performance than probably any other single factor, so that even with slower clocks, the new Ryzen 5000 chips are supposed to outperform Intel's best, in part due to ~ 19% IPC increase. Benchmarking tests usually include single-core performance (Cinebench comes to mind), and the new Ryzen chips are whipping the pants off Intel's 10900K in single-core Cinebench, in spite of boost clocks that are much lower (Ryzen9 5900x max 4.8Ghz vs 10900k max 5.3Ghz).

It could very soon wind up that having the fastest multi-core CPU and the best single core performing CPU...are one and the same.

I know I'm watching.


Last edited by kksnowbear; 10/14/20 12:43 PM.
#4540792 - 10/14/20 12:42 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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Since CFS3/WOFF only uses one core to play the game (since it is a 2003 game), it does not matter how fast the multicore CPU is, it still uses the single fastest core to play the game.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4540793 - 10/14/20 12:45 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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And yet, it's still not necessarily true that "having the fastest multicore CPU means nothing to WOFF", as I explained.

#4541111 - 10/16/20 10:17 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
And yet, it's still not necessarily true that "having the fastest multicore CPU means nothing to WOFF", as I explained.


You know your PC hardware, for sure. Thanks for the educational post above. So given this ongoing advancement in multicore tech, does that change your stance any on whether spending more on hardware can / does actually improve the WOFF experience? Lou's new machine seems to be giving him more WOFF pleasure than he had with his old machine. I suspect it's mostly due to the graphics upgrade but possibly also from the new CPU / mobo?


System: i5 8600K @ 3.6GHz,16GB DDR4 @2666MHz. RTX2080, MSI Z370 mobo, Dell 27" G-SYNC @ 144Hz. 2560x1440

#4541261 - 10/18/20 11:23 AM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: Panama Red]  
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Originally Posted by Panama Red
Since CFS3/WOFF only uses one core to play the game (since it is a 2003 game), it does not matter how fast the multicore CPU is, it still uses the single fastest core to play the game.


Years ago, that may have been true, but AnKor's code now does some amount of workload sharing across cores. A quick run with a CPU resource monitor tracking each core will clearly show that.


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#4541613 - 10/20/20 06:02 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: HarryH]  
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Originally Posted by HarryH
You know your PC hardware, for sure. Thanks for the educational post above. So given this ongoing advancement in multicore tech, does that change your stance any on whether spending more on hardware can / does actually improve the WOFF experience? Lou's new machine seems to be giving him more WOFF pleasure than he had with his old machine. I suspect it's mostly due to the graphics upgrade but possibly also from the new CPU / mobo?


I appreciate the compliment. I do want to address your question, I'm just really very tied up lately. But I will do my best to get back and give this a proper answer soon as I can.

#4541633 - 10/20/20 08:39 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
Originally Posted by HarryH
You know your PC hardware, for sure. Thanks for the educational post above. So given this ongoing advancement in multicore tech, does that change your stance any on whether spending more on hardware can / does actually improve the WOFF experience? Lou's new machine seems to be giving him more WOFF pleasure than he had with his old machine. I suspect it's mostly due to the graphics upgrade but possibly also from the new CPU / mobo?


I appreciate the compliment. I do want to address your question, I'm just really very tied up lately. But I will do my best to get back and give this a proper answer soon as I can.


No problem. Thanks.


System: i5 8600K @ 3.6GHz,16GB DDR4 @2666MHz. RTX2080, MSI Z370 mobo, Dell 27" G-SYNC @ 144Hz. 2560x1440

#4550294 - 12/31/20 03:55 AM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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And so it begins... CPU is 5600X. Sadly, the cat will not be invited to the office until my Phanteks Eclipse 600s Case arrives next Monday.
Open air test bench + Nefarious Feline = Not good. mycomputer

Sticking with my existing GTX 1070 for now as an experiment since I may be forced to keep an NVIDIA card in the machine for WOFF. With my current build (i5-6600K OC to 4.4 MHz), I rarely hit 50% GPU usage even on on max settings so I'm curious to see how WOFF performs with a heavy duty CPU and a weaker Graphics card. Will it be enough? Unlikely, but time will solve that mystery soon enough. Ultimately, I'm aiming for first-rate GPU, be it a Team Green 30xx or Team Red 68xx...at MSRP dammit! Hopefully, R.Talbot managed to figure something with his latest generation AMD GPU in which case, game on. I'd rather go all-Team Red and take advantage of the smart access memory feature but WOFF and the DID are my primary gaining commitments for the next 11 months so I may be forced to keep an NVIDiA GPU.

We need a standardized torture test scenario, btw. Something similar to the "Black Death" from IL2. My take on that is a QC 22 v 22 Dogfight at 2000 ft over the lines. Current build handled that no problem. FPS was 40-70 for the entire thing. I run a 144hz Freesync/Gsync monitor at 1/2 refresh rate to smooth things out. Thinking about a more thorough test, I'd consider having that QC 22v22 dogfight over a major ground offensive during a barrage. Not sure what time and place would work best so if any of you have ideas please list them.

#4550403 - 01/01/21 01:52 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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Look at all the pretty pieces parts, or PC parts! And Epower, until you mentioned it, I didn't even see the cat in the picture. biggrin

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#4550406 - 01/01/21 05:19 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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Sadly not solved anything here with radeon gpu. I sent a bug report to amd, lol I know. Finder crossed.

#4550409 - 01/01/21 05:25 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
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Lindsay, Ontario, Canada
Ah, the cat is just resting and conserving energy, waiting for the boxes to be opened so the fun can begin!! biggrin

Where did you get that snazzy desktop protector. I like that!!


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
PSU: Ultra X3,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4550414 - 01/01/21 07:09 PM Re: The next 5-year build [Re: epower]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 457
epower Online grunt
Member
epower  Online Grunt
Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 457
R. Talbot - I will burn Joss Sticks and think happy thoughts for your AMD bug report. Hey, don't ask, don't get, so maybe they'll have an answer.

Robert - I have lured the cat into the living room by building a large fire. The mat is an anti-static mat from Modmat. Link here:
http://www.modright.com/cat/l1/g61/Mod-Mat.html

I have the Extreme model (23" x 47"). Very happy with it. They have smaller versions as well.

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