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#4537646 - 09/19/20 03:44 AM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Hellshade]  
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Stache Offline
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Thanks kksnowbear, I have modified my post.

Yes and while I know the devil is in the details, been there many a time, IMO for most consumers that detailed analysis does not help make an informed decisions and that is the problem with detailed analysis.
But this is not the topic of this thread...





Last edited by Stache; 09/19/20 03:45 AM.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. A. Einstein

(System Specs:)

I7-6700k OC 4.4GHZ, 16GB DDR4 3200Mhz; Gigabyte Gaming 7 MB, G1 OC'ed GTX980ti; Three-Acer XB271HU WQHD Gsync 144Mhz; Samsung 950-512GB NVMe SSD; WD 2TB-7200rpm; Cooler Master HAF XB EVO, Nepton 240M cooler, V1000 PS; Windows 10 PRO; VKB GunfighterPro Stick; Thrustmaster TPR Pedals; Saitek Throttle; Dual TM MFD panels; TrackIR 5; Windows 10 v1909
#4537648 - 09/19/20 03:56 AM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Stache]  
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Originally Posted by Stache
Thanks kksnowbear, I have modified my post.

Yes and while I know the devil is in the details, been there many a time, IMO for most consumers that detailed analysis does not help make an informed decisions and that is the problem with detailed analysis.


Once again, I would disagree. Your opinion is your own right, of course - but that doesn't make it fact. In my opinion, there are many - many - times that detailed analysis allows informed decisions. After all - you yourself just said a moment ago that it's entirely the responsibility of the buyer to know what they're getting in any case. If you assert that, then you are also essentially asserting they'd better darn well be doing detailed analysis, and making an informed choice (else they are failing their obligation as consumers...according to you, anyhow).

I would readily agree that plenty of people choose to be lazy or remain ignorant and not do the legwork, and I would assert it applies more so where computers are concerned. However, this doesn't make it a rule, nor a good idea. Like many consumers, I don't buy any "durable goods" without doing a reasonable amount of study.

At the same time, I do understand that less reputable manufacturers and companies would prefer a less studied consumer - for obvious reasons. I just don't think it's OK to treat it like it's the rule or a good idea.

EDIT: BTW, even if your intent is to summarize, it would be far more accurate to include that, if you're not doing any of the things in your list up top, then upgrading to a 30-series probably isn't worth it; and whether it's worth it will also depend on how many of those things you are actually doing. For example: The evidence available thus far indicates that if you're running 1080 (again, by far the most common resolution; more so that all others combined), and you're not running games that support RT or DLSS, then there is probably very little reason to spend $700 on a card that (by most informed accounts) isn't going to bring much improvement.

Again, this is what's wrong with trying to over simplify by summary: You don't explain why it depends, therefore, no one could say whether they would/would not benefit without more detail.

Oh, and yes, you missed quite a few rather important things (in the numbered list): The power requirements. The space requirements. The cooling requirements...just the more obvious ones I noticed. Again, the problem is trying too hard to omit important details.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 09/19/20 04:10 AM.
#4537650 - 09/19/20 05:38 AM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Stache]  
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Looks like 3080 FE will be back in stock next week according to Nvidia. Looking forward to reading some of the actual buyers reviews and experiences once they've had them awhile. Be interesting to compare the results to both hypsters and any nit pickers. Right now though, about the only thing people seem pissed about is that they can't get their hands on them because Nvidia let them get bought out by bots and are now being scalped on eBay for ridiculous prices. They better fix the bot thing. It's not doing them any PR benefit for sure. LOL


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4537666 - 09/19/20 11:19 AM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Hellshade]  
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kk

If you want to have a discussion on summary / detailed analysis - start a new thread. No need to derail this one.

As you said - Your opinion is your own right, of course - but that doesn't make it any more fact than mine is.

And yes, I did not include, cooling, power or space requirements as they do not pertain to the topic of the summary.







Last edited by Stache; 09/19/20 01:18 PM.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. A. Einstein

(System Specs:)

I7-6700k OC 4.4GHZ, 16GB DDR4 3200Mhz; Gigabyte Gaming 7 MB, G1 OC'ed GTX980ti; Three-Acer XB271HU WQHD Gsync 144Mhz; Samsung 950-512GB NVMe SSD; WD 2TB-7200rpm; Cooler Master HAF XB EVO, Nepton 240M cooler, V1000 PS; Windows 10 PRO; VKB GunfighterPro Stick; Thrustmaster TPR Pedals; Saitek Throttle; Dual TM MFD panels; TrackIR 5; Windows 10 v1909
#4537674 - 09/19/20 12:48 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Stache]  
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Originally Posted by Stache
kk

If you want to have a discussion on summary / detailed analysis - start a new thread. No need to derail this one.

As you said - Your opinion is your own right, of course - but that doesn't make it any more fact than mine is.

And yes, I did not include, sizing, power or space requirements as they do not pertain to the topic of the summary.


Yes, but I've supplied a ton of facts that show the reason for my opinions. The fact is, plenty of people make informed decisions as consumers based on detailed analysis - and your suggestion that they don't is absurd (and a little insulting to anyone intelligent, to be honest).

Sizing and space are pretty much the same thing. I said you omitted the power, space, and cooling requirements. These are absolutely relevant to your summary post, because you asked "Did I miss anything?". So I answered: Yes (and here's what you missed). Moreover, they're precisely relevant to the subject of the thread (as it should be), as they are crucial details which will certainly feature prominently in any informed review and purchasing decision. Omitting these details is asking for problems ("I bought this card, but it won't fit my chassis...)...it's also a lot like having discussion about a new car, but omitting any points about fuel economy, safety features, or automotive finishes.

In any case, they are relevant because you asked.

BTW, I only mentioned what I did about summarizing because it omits very important details, which many people will use and most will appreciate having. It is not derailing anything - just don't try to use 'summary' to omit crucial points.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 09/19/20 12:53 PM.
#4537678 - 09/19/20 01:10 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Hellshade]  
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kk again....

I would respectifully request, if you want to have a discussion on summary / detailed analysis - start a new thread. No need to derail this one.
For the record - power, space, and cooling are what I would consider basic functional requirements to get it to work at all in any system.
The scope of the particular summary was How to make FULL use of the power of the 30xx boards (in a system that met the basic functional requirements)


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. A. Einstein

(System Specs:)

I7-6700k OC 4.4GHZ, 16GB DDR4 3200Mhz; Gigabyte Gaming 7 MB, G1 OC'ed GTX980ti; Three-Acer XB271HU WQHD Gsync 144Mhz; Samsung 950-512GB NVMe SSD; WD 2TB-7200rpm; Cooler Master HAF XB EVO, Nepton 240M cooler, V1000 PS; Windows 10 PRO; VKB GunfighterPro Stick; Thrustmaster TPR Pedals; Saitek Throttle; Dual TM MFD panels; TrackIR 5; Windows 10 v1909
#4537683 - 09/19/20 01:23 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Hellshade]  
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And again, I only mentioned summary because you're trying to use it to omit important details, which are relevant to the OP.

You can't make FULL use of any GPU without the power, space and cooling it requires. So it's omitting relevant detail to leave those things off.

The other things you listed are not all 'basic functional requirements', and your own stated intent to build a 3080 without a PCIe 4.0 motherboard (then build around it) proves it: a PCIe 4.0 motherboard is not a 'basic functional requirement' of a system to use a 3080 GPU, but it's still in your list.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 09/19/20 01:24 PM.
#4537691 - 09/19/20 02:02 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: kksnowbear]  
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kk again....

I would respectifully request, if you want to have a discussion on summary / detailed analysis - start a new thread. No need to derail this one.
But I fear you have already fully derailed this.

Originally Posted by kksnowbear

You can't make FULL use of any GPU without the power, space and cooling it requires. So it's omitting relevant detail to leave those things off.
.

That all depends upon the scope of the summary.
If the scope was to summarize all items necessary to install and make use of the full power of a 30XX - then leaving off power, space, and cooling would not be appropriate.
But that was not the intended scope.

Originally Posted by kksnowbear

The other things you listed are not all 'basic functional requirements', and your own stated intent to build a 3080 without a PCIe 4.0 motherboard (then build around it) proves it: a PCIe 4.0 motherboard is not a 'basic functional requirement' of a system to use a 3080 GPU, but it's still in your list.

That is not what I said, which was...
Will I just plug in my 30xx card in my old system, sure (provided I have space for its length) and when the time is right I will build a new system to go around it.
The time will be right.... when there is motherboard for an Intel processor that fully supportes PCIe 4 or 5.
A PCIe 4 MB is on the list because it is needed for performance, I never said it was a "basic functional requirement"

Originally Posted by kksnowbear
And again, I only mentioned summary because you're trying to use it to omit important details, which are relevant to the OP.


The OP was asking about performance - which was why the scope of the summary was limited to perfomance and does not include basic functional requirements.
Originally Posted by Hellshade
Not exactly finding any bad reviews on the new RTX 3080. They dropped the price significantly and upped the performance. I was going to wait a few more cycles to update my old GTX 1080 but I'm starting to rethink that. I know WOFF is very CPU dependent but doesn't seem like it would hurt to have this kind of a GPU pushing the frame rates consistently higher.


If you have nothing new to add to the summary list - please end this.

Last edited by Stache; 09/19/20 02:16 PM.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. A. Einstein

(System Specs:)

I7-6700k OC 4.4GHZ, 16GB DDR4 3200Mhz; Gigabyte Gaming 7 MB, G1 OC'ed GTX980ti; Three-Acer XB271HU WQHD Gsync 144Mhz; Samsung 950-512GB NVMe SSD; WD 2TB-7200rpm; Cooler Master HAF XB EVO, Nepton 240M cooler, V1000 PS; Windows 10 PRO; VKB GunfighterPro Stick; Thrustmaster TPR Pedals; Saitek Throttle; Dual TM MFD panels; TrackIR 5; Windows 10 v1909
#4537692 - 09/19/20 02:15 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Hellshade]  
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If it wasn't the scope of your summary to 'make FULL use', then why would you say that, and why would you ask 'Did I miss anything?"

And until you get a PCIe 4/5 board, you're planning to run a system that proves a PCIe 4 board is not a 'basic system requirement'. Thus, your list includes several things that are not 'basic system requirements', and therefore is omitting important detail because you leave off size, cooling and power constraints.

You just said "The scope of the particular summary was How to make FULL use of the power of the 30xx boards (in a system that met the basic functional requirements)" - which doesn't say anything about performance.

Nobody's derailing anything, my comments are all about 30-series GPUs and what (in my opinion, supported by facts as presented) the "reviews" are NOT telling someone who might like to make an informed decision. Perfectly on topic. The only problem is that *you* started with the 'summary' business (not me) - which is fine, but omits important detail. You asked if you were missing anything, I told you what you were missing. You posted the summary, you asked the question, so if anyone's derailing anything, it's you. I was simply responding to you. It seems what you want is to suppress any other perspective by calling it "derailing" - even when you asked for responses.

#4537696 - 09/19/20 02:29 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Hellshade]  
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Sorry kk I figured most people here would equate power with performance.

Thank you for pointing out the error of my asumption, I have corected the line in the original post.

To make FULL use of the power (i.e. performance) of the 30xx boards.... (in a system that provides the basic functional requirements for power, space and cooling)

Regards,


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. A. Einstein

(System Specs:)

I7-6700k OC 4.4GHZ, 16GB DDR4 3200Mhz; Gigabyte Gaming 7 MB, G1 OC'ed GTX980ti; Three-Acer XB271HU WQHD Gsync 144Mhz; Samsung 950-512GB NVMe SSD; WD 2TB-7200rpm; Cooler Master HAF XB EVO, Nepton 240M cooler, V1000 PS; Windows 10 PRO; VKB GunfighterPro Stick; Thrustmaster TPR Pedals; Saitek Throttle; Dual TM MFD panels; TrackIR 5; Windows 10 v1909
#4537700 - 09/19/20 03:10 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Hellshade]  
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No problem. Glad we can discuss. For reference, though: Power in this context (that is, electrical power, measured in watts required from a PSU) is not at all related in any particular way to 'performance'. Some computer guts use ridiculous amounts of power without providing a comparable level of performance, while some perform exceptionally well without using a lot of power.

For example, the old 770 and 780 GPUs used about as much power as the new 3070 is said to use, but you can bet there's a huge difference in performance.

So, there really is no direct relationship between power and performance. It's entirely a matter of design and implementation.

The reason it's this definition of 'power' that matters (not performance) is that a lot of people might not have power supplies that can haul around a 320W GPU on top of their existing rig...which will significantly increase the "actual" cost of that fantastic steal of a $699 3080 card. A PSU like that can easily run well over $100 all by itself. And that's the context of my perspective: What the "reviews" aren't necessarily telling you about the actual cost of making a change like the 30-series GPU. To be clear, they're great cards no doubt. What I'm saying is that it's impossible to say how great a deal it is, unless you consider all the other stuff that could be involved, depending on your situation.

#4537704 - 09/19/20 03:35 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Hellshade]  
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.

This has been a very educational back and forth concerning the new 3080, at least for me it has been. The specs on the card look to be phenomenal, as does the release price, so it is most helpful to learn that there are a fair amount of other items that could ultimately impact the real replacement cost of upgrading to the latest technology. For me it would literally require an entire new build. biggrin

Thanks gents!

.

#4537707 - 09/19/20 03:53 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Hellshade Offline
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Originally Posted by RAF_Louvert
.
For me it would literally require an entire new build. biggrin

.


I'm half tempted just to make a new build anyway and give my current rig to my girlfriend so she can play her games. wink

Sadly, Elder Scrolls VI probably won't be out for another several years. On the plus side, it will be almost guaranteed to take full advantage of the ray tracing and data loading features. In the meantime, I can only imagine WOFF 2020 will run beautifully.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4537740 - 09/19/20 09:11 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Hellshade]  
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Wow the 3090 £1595 here in the UK, but $1,500 in the US. As I said before they always just change the $ sign to a £ no exchange rate.

The 2080Ti was £1100 here at launch.

3080 is £689 and up to £899 for some models already.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4537741 - 09/19/20 09:21 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Polovski]  
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Originally Posted by Polovski
Wow the 3090 £1595 here in the UK, but $1,500 in the US. As I said before they always just change the $ sign to a £ no exchange rate.

The 2080Ti was £1100 here at launch.

3080 is £689 and up to £899 for some models already.



Yup. As you go up the scale in performance, you pay progressively more for the difference. The 3070 is probably the price / performance break most people will opt for from the new cards. At least those not willing to wait to see what AMD is going to offer up. RTX 3080 looks fine for me. If someone's got the cash and wants a 3090, more power to them.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4537745 - 09/19/20 09:49 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Hellshade]  
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A good deal of the cost difference in the 3080 models (£689 and up to £899 for some models) is mostly not about different levels of performance. The performance of all the 'base' (aftermarket) 3080s will be the same, plus or minus, broadly speaking.

It's about names, brand loyalty, features like custom shrouds, RGB lighting/effects, plus well-known differences in general quality and support between 'top-tier' cards and base model designs/manufacturers. Sometimes there are sales, promos, etc, which are obvious exceptions...but, generally speaking at least in the retail market, eVGA, MSI and ASUS are usually a bit more than Gigabyte and Zotac. For example, if I go to NewEgg and sort on price, Gigabyte, Zotac usually are at the lowest end, while custom models from eVGA, MSI and (especially) Asus usually fill out the upper end of the price scale. Depends on the exact model and features, more so than actual differences in performance.


Yes the 3090 will obviously be more, and the 3070 will be less. But the cost difference in various examples of the 3080 cards is a bigger delta than the performance would be, and the cost difference is due to features, reputation, quality, and support.

#4537749 - 09/19/20 10:17 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Hellshade]  
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Yes saw that those 899 ones are no faster than the 699 ones nothing special. Yes of course you pay more for more, but the point I was trying, badly, to make is it's not exactly dramatically "cheaper" than previous releases as they have been saying - and the none accounting for the exchange rate really irks me.
Each new generation model should be at roughly at the same price of the previous launch and the old one drops in price, but NVidia seem to have been hiking up prices (like Apple and Samsung with phones) each new generation. A new trend.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4537753 - 09/19/20 10:27 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Originally Posted by RAF_Louvert
.

This has been a very educational back and forth concerning the new 3080, at least for me it has been. The specs on the card look to be phenomenal, as does the release price, so it is most helpful to learn that there are a fair amount of other items that could ultimately impact the real replacement cost of upgrading to the latest technology. For me it would literally require an entire new build. biggrin

Thanks gents!

.


Yes, the 30-series cards are most impressive...but the absolute worst way to go about moving to that card is if someone were to buy a new 400 series board now, and a 10th-gen CPU, with a 30-series GPU (and much more so if they aren't running 4k).

Two better ways to go IMHO:

(This is mostly if you're on 4k or planning to move there anyway): Wait out Intel finally getting their stuff together with PCIe 4.0 support and then build a 30 GPU with a 500 chipset and 11th gen CPU
- or-
(If you're determined to do a new build in the next six months or so, don't require 4k, don't mind staying with PCIe 3.0 instead of 4.0, and/or prefer a more budget friendly, cost effective approach) Watch the 20-series GPUs; they should drop a good bit soon due to the 30s release. Get a 10th gen CPU/400 series chipset, they may well drop too depending on what Intel does with the 500 chipset and when (or maybe even find a real bargain on 9th gen stuff!) This applies more so if you can re-use your chassis, PSU, and other components, potentially saving hundreds.

#4537754 - 09/19/20 10:30 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Polovski]  
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Originally Posted by Polovski
... the point I was trying, badly, to make is it's not exactly dramatically "cheaper" than previous releases as they have been saying.


Yessir, you are absolutely correct. It is not exactly dramatically cheaper than previous releases as they have been saying...but they seem to have done an incredible job getting people to believe it is.

#4537804 - 09/20/20 01:19 PM Re: RTX 3080 reviews are coming in [Re: Hellshade]  
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Looks like with the right supporting hardware, the FPS (both average and minimum) is pretty consistently double what I am getting with my 1080. If the real world feedback supports it in the coming months, it's looking like as good a time as any for me to do some upgrading.

1080 vs 2080 vs 3080 benchmarks


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

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