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#4537217 - 09/16/20 01:18 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Sure thing Nixer, NoFlyBoy got it wrong about being only 29 kilos from Moscow when the decision was made in August. Try 200 kilos instead.


" if you don’t like the religious Right, wait until you meet the non-religious Right.."
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#4537220 - 09/16/20 01:33 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Yep.

Adolph was assuming (he did a lot of that) victory around Moscow, so he headed for his favorite objectives, the bread basket in Ukraine and those Baku oilfields...a continuing theme for the last century or so since mechanization took root.

BTW; Hope all is well with you and yours Max. All good here, just doing my best to not go off the rails in my written stuff at school, might get booted if I don't tread lightly.

Your learned commentary on military subjects is always educational and interesting.



"There's a sucker born every minute."
Phineas Taylor Barnum

#4537227 - 09/16/20 03:33 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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We are good thanks Nixer, though I'm a bit restricted by the bloody COVID regulations. I'm a two-time loser, being old and having suppressed immunity because of my treatment. I do love mil history though still an ignorant git I'm afraid. smile Read a lot though. Take care and be good mate, not many of us unreconstructed types left.

Last edited by Mad Max; 09/16/20 03:34 AM.

" if you don’t like the religious Right, wait until you meet the non-religious Right.."
#4537229 - 09/16/20 04:10 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: Mad Max]  
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Originally Posted by Mad Max
People talking about Sea Lion and the Battle of Britain rarely discuss the Royal Navy and its capability to destroy most of the invasion "fleet" simply by sailing past the individual low-freeboard river barges at high speed. A minor fact re the equipment of the Heer at this time is the total lack of artillery and nothing but a sprinkling of water-proofed tanks supposed to simply drive ashore and off to London. The rest were rifleman Mk1. The RAF (God Bless Them) could have lost totally over Kent and simply retreated back to Midland airfields, but they didn't lose.

The Navy was even in its depleted state simply overwhelming, the old battleship Revenge alone would have been sufficient. The Luftwaffe had no...repeat...no torpedo-bombers and were hopeless at hitting ships (Ref Dunkirk) with bombs, forget the Stukas...breakfast for any fighter.


It is not so much the Luftwaffe had no torpedo bombers, as that they had no inventory of aerial torpedos (turf wars between the Luftwaffe and the Kreigmarine had made sure of that) or anti-shipping ordnance in general in the spring of 1940, and the Germans had burned through most of their handful crews with anti-shipping/maritime training fighting the Battle of France of the early stages of the Battle of Britain.

Anyway, the Sandherst wargame in the 1970s definitely seems to support the idea that Sea Lion was a losing proposition. That said, as shown be Royal Navy operations in and around Crete, and the Malta convoys, the RNs air defense was not stellar, and the Germans were able to improvise fairly quickly with their existing bomber forces (and obviously aided by the Italians) to threaten the Royal Navy in confined waters. The issue would have come down, I think, to three things: (1) Would the Royal Navy go all in to destroy the invasion, or would it try to preserve some of its capital ships to protect the empire? (2) Would the Luftwaffe have been able to improvise and/or acquire from the Italians some sort of effective maritime strike force by the late summer? (3) Would the Luftwaffe have been able to provide a strong enough air bridge to tide the Germans forces over during the gap in supply caused by the inevitable RN counterattack?

Personally, I lean on the side of Sandherst and many modern historians that Sea Lion was always a high risk gamble even had the Luftwaffe "succeeded" in the Battle of Britain. However, I do not think the German chance of success was zero. Even in the battle of France, there were a few poor decisions by the French and (at the lower levels) a few key actions by the Germans that probably spelled the difference between victory for the Germans and, if not defeat, at least stalemate. So, on the other side of the coin, a few "die rolls" going the German's way (as they did in Crete) could have meant disaster for the British.

Last edited by Nimits; 09/16/20 07:08 AM.
#4537232 - 09/16/20 05:58 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Things often don’t go as expected in military operations. I am of the opinion that Sea Lion would have failed. But it would have only taken a small window of time for Germany to have put a couple divisions across the Channel. Then aerial resupply of the most critical supplies might have let them have pushed into London. And even then, there is a big difference between pushing into London and succeeding in taking London. But it would have been a life-or-death struggle either way. I am of the opinion that there is a difference between being able to get a couple divisions across and getting a successful invasion.

As I said, things sometimes don’t turnout as expected. Look at Operation Cerebrus , the Channel Dash.

I agree with Nimits.


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#4537235 - 09/16/20 06:52 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I can't just leave it at that. Never mind if the Luftwaffe had planes theoretically capable of being modified as torpedo bombers, they had no operational torpedo carrying aircraft in 1940. In fact their anti-shipping capability was very poor.

The German plan involved the surviving barges, mostly unpowered, to be turned around and go back to France to be reloaded and again risk the trip. These were canal barges FCS, very low freeboard and vulnerable even to a rough sea. Very few had any doors to unload troops, it was just scramble out and over and run up the beach. Not my idea of a fun time. Granted a few could have have even so got ashore, but forget resupply. Even Dover was too much for them to consider taking. OG mentions "a couple of divisions". No way Jose.

The navy..... we're not talking Capital ships here, just small patrol boats, frigates and destroyers would have had a field day. And if all else failed, my then countrymen would spray the b@stards with mustard gas. Liker Churchill said at the time.. "we shall never surrender". And there was a capital ship, the Revenge, with nothing to oppose her, the Kriegsmarine had no large ships not in the panel beaters, thanks again to the Navy.

The Luftwaffe "air bridge". Right, these are the same fallschirmjager that were cut to peaces in Crete in 1941. Good luck taking on desperate Brits with lightly armed paras, even the hopeless tanks that the Brits had at that time would have done the trick, and the RAF, regardless of the air Superiority issue still had night bombers capable of cratering runways. Lets not go into the very limited numbers of Ju52s available to stage supplies. Sure as hell Goering's merry men never managed it anywhere else later in the war. I think that the surviving RAF Fighter Command planes from the Midland bases would have made their presence felt too.

I often talked about this with my parents and grandparents whilst they still lived, and there was no element of defeatism there. They knew full fine what the Nazis had in store if victorious. Whatever it took, it would be done.


" if you don’t like the religious Right, wait until you meet the non-religious Right.."
#4537236 - 09/16/20 07:06 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: Mad Max]  
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Originally Posted by Mad Max
I can't just leave it at that. Never mind if the Luftwaffe had planes theoretically capable of being modified as torpedo bombers, they had no operational torpedo carrying aircraft in 1940. In fact their anti-shipping capability was very poor.


I was agreeing with your larger point (the Luftwaffe had in the summer of 1940 virtually no anti-warship capability); however, I do not think the aircraft themselves were the limiting factor. Planes can be modified to carry torpedoes (the US did it with the B-26, the Germans with later variants of the He 111), and other possible tactics (dive bombing, skip bombing), can make even non-torpedo aircraft deadly to heavy warships. What the Luftwaffe lacked in 1940 was trained anti-shipping crews (and proper tactics) and anti-shipping ordnance; both shortages could theoretically have been rectified, though probably not without pulling from the resources already being consumed by the Battle of Britain.

Last edited by Nimits; 09/18/20 06:11 AM.
#4537237 - 09/16/20 07:12 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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smile


" if you don’t like the religious Right, wait until you meet the non-religious Right.."
#4537238 - 09/16/20 08:22 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Just think how many Panzer IV's and StuG's the Germans could have built instead using the materials wasted on that "Maus". It's a good thing that German wartime armaments production and logistical strategy was idiotic.

Ineed Old Chap.Same with the Capital ships. Vanity projects that did very little for Germany's war effort. Hitler was so exasperated by their ineffectiveness and inactivity that he wanted the lot scrapped, mid-war.
As you say regarding the Panzers, if the steel and production time was used to produce U-Boots as Raeder wanted, the outcome of the Battle of the Atlantic and therefore Britain's survival may have been questionable.
The more I read of the Third Reich's arms output strategy (never a total war economy and industry until too late) and internecine rivalry between branches of the Forces and influential key protaganists within them, the more I come to the conclusion that 'Teutonic Efficiency' was a myth.



#4537240 - 09/16/20 09:41 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: Paul Morrison]  
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Originally Posted by Paul Morrison
Hitler was pretty stupid. He made the ME-262 into a bomber, which delayed introduction by over a year.



I have an excellent book on the design, manufacture and deployment of the Me-262 that I need to re-read. But I do recall that it states that this supposed interference by Hitler either never took place or had no effect, the 262 was simply not ready to be put into production as a either fighter or a bomber as early as is generally assumed today.


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4537244 - 09/16/20 10:30 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
I have an excellent book on the design, manufacture and deployment of the Me-262 that I need to re-read.

Could you share the title and author? smile

#4537248 - 09/16/20 11:04 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The 4 volume tome by Smith/Creek on the Me262 I thought was pretty good.


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4537249 - 09/16/20 11:10 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: BD-123]  
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Originally Posted by BD-123
(never a total war economy and industry until too late) and internecine rivalry between branches of the Forces and influential key protaganists within them, the more I come to the conclusion that 'Teutonic Efficiency' was a myth.



Germany didn't switch over to a full-fledged wartime economy until after the infamous "total war" speech by Goebbels at the Berlin Sportspalast in early 1943. By then it was way too late.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4537251 - 09/16/20 11:19 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: Mad Max]  
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Originally Posted by Mad Max
I can't just leave it at that. Never mind if the Luftwaffe had planes theoretically capable of being modified as torpedo bombers, they had no operational torpedo carrying aircraft in 1940. In fact their anti-shipping capability was very poor.

The German plan involved the surviving barges, mostly unpowered, to be turned around and go back to France to be reloaded and again risk the trip. These were canal barges FCS, very low freeboard and vulnerable even to a rough sea. Very few had any doors to unload troops, it was just scramble out and over and run up the beach. Not my idea of a fun time. Granted a few could have have even so got ashore, but forget resupply. Even Dover was too much for them to consider taking. OG mentions "a couple of divisions". No way Jose.

The navy..... we're not talking Capital ships here, just small patrol boats, frigates and destroyers would have had a field day. And if all else failed, my then countrymen would spray the b@stards with mustard gas. Liker Churchill said at the time.. "we shall never surrender". And there was a capital ship, the Revenge, with nothing to oppose her, the Kriegsmarine had no large ships not in the panel beaters, thanks again to the Navy.

The Luftwaffe "air bridge". Right, these are the same fallschirmjager that were cut to peaces in Crete in 1941. Good luck taking on desperate Brits with lightly armed paras, even the hopeless tanks that the Brits had at that time would have done the trick, and the RAF, regardless of the air Superiority issue still had night bombers capable of cratering runways. Lets not go into the very limited numbers of Ju52s available to stage supplies. Sure as hell Goering's merry men never managed it anywhere else later in the war. I think that the surviving RAF Fighter Command planes from the Midland bases would have made their presence felt too.

I often talked about this with my parents and grandparents whilst they still lived, and there was no element of defeatism there. They knew full fine what the Nazis had in store if victorious. Whatever it took, it would be done.


One thing is clear. Both Napoleon and Hitler failed to read the same "How to invade Britain" book that William the Conqueror read. biggrin


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4537255 - 09/16/20 12:12 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer



One thing is clear. Both Napoleon and Hitler failed to read the same "How to invade Britain" book that William the Conqueror read. biggrin



Step one: Wait until the British are distracted by another invasion

#4537258 - 09/16/20 12:40 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
...
One thing is clear. Both Napoleon and Hitler failed to read the same "How to invade Britain" book that William the Conqueror read. biggrin

Not to forget the "Don't invade Russia!" memo...

#4537260 - 09/16/20 12:45 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: WhoCares]  
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Originally Posted by WhoCares

Not to forget the "Don't invade Russia!" memo...



I must post this now. One of my favorite memes of all time.

Attached Files invades-russia-in-the-winter-wins-imgfip-com-who-else-66297790.png

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4537268 - 09/16/20 01:37 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: Vaderini]  
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Originally Posted by Vaderini
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
I have an excellent book on the design, manufacture and deployment of the Me-262 that I need to re-read.

Could you share the title and author? smile



I'm looking, it's not on my library shelves so I'll have to look through some volumes I have put away in boxes.


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4537272 - 09/16/20 01:59 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I've gone through a few boxes and can't find the book, I believe it was "Messerschmitt Me 262: Arrow to the Future" by Walter J Boyne ( https://amazon.com/Messerschmitt-Me-262-Arrow-Future/dp/0874742757? )


Found a video that states much of what I recall reading:


https://youtu.be/JSIgldbu5QU





I did find that I own THREE copies of "Yeager" wink


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4537291 - 09/16/20 06:14 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
I've gone through a few boxes and can't find the book, I believe it was "Messerschmitt Me 262: Arrow to the Future" by Walter J Boyne ( https://amazon.com/Messerschmitt-Me-262-Arrow-Future/dp/0874742757? )

I have that book is quite good, but not as good as the Smith/Creek tome.


[Linked Image]


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
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