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#453708 - 09/30/06 05:35 PM Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  
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Robert Murphy Offline
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'Llo Bro's,

Been playing a bit of SB Pro PE as of late...

Question:

How is it that the wedge-shaped frontal turret armor of the Leopard II does not create a shot-trap on its underside? I think it is safe to assume that the Leopard II does not have this vulnerability, as the engineers who designed the tank were no doubt fully aware of this 'phenomenon.' But just looking at the tank, it seems that any AP shell striking the bottom side of the wedge would be deflected through the top hull armor. How did the designers compensate for this?

Ssnake? Anyone?

Robert


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#453709 - 09/30/06 07:10 PM Re: Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  
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#453710 - 09/30/06 07:33 PM Re: Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  

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You're referencing back to the era of solid shot. Modern penetrators do not deflect on vehicle surfaces in any meaningful way, nor do the vehicle designs attempt to deflect them. Even the old Saddam-era Iraqi service rounds didn't deflect off the huge M1 turret slabs, but stuck into them like arrows. Think of the material as liquifying at the contact point and flowing out of the way.

As modern APFSDS rounds tend to bite into target surfaces, modern solutions must cope under rules of a different ballgame than what the old designers attempted with homogenous plate vs full-caliber AP shot:

Laminate/Composite alloys: break up the penetrator as it digs in, or blunt or deform it, reducing further penetration.

Reactive Armor: newer generation attacks the penetrator; Russian Kontakt-5 modules impart a sideways shearing action, always feeding more armor into the path of the bullet until one or the other finally yields.

#453711 - 10/01/06 08:51 PM Re: Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  
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Devil summed it up. Although I'd like to be picky and point out that penetrators and armor do not "liquify" on impact. Even in the case of the hollow charge jet, the collapsed liner is still solid (and at a temperature well below the melting point of copper). Because of the high pressure and the supersonic expansion speed of the jet (does not apply to APFSDS penetrators, they're way too slow) the liner material is in a state of "super plasticity" which, when interacting with armor plate, behaves in a way that can be described with hydrodynamic formulas that were developed to describe liquids of different densities gushing into each other.

The behavior is similar, simply because of the unusual conditions under which the liner forms. but that doesn't mean that anything actually IS in liquid phase state.


As far as the shot trap discussion is concerned, I had a déja-vu when opening the thread (a Groundhog Day experience). Almost identically phrased questions have been asked at Tank-Net.org and SteelBeasts.com before. Several times. The search button there is your friend.
\:\)


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#453712 - 10/01/06 09:24 PM Re: Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  

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Liquify in a manner of speaking of hydrodynamic flow; I think the analogy works but for the notion it may conjure about temperatures- it certainly permits a better conception as to why ricochets are no longer permitted at the table for discussion.


Insofar as the HEAT jet, it is relatively well known by now we're not talking about plasma, nor a molten jet, but in continuum mechanics what is known as plasticity. However, some physicists concede that the phenomena is stupefying; I read an obscure paper about ten years ago that some have argued that the inner core of the jet itself might be molten. At any rate, there are strange things happening at the sort of speeds we're talking about, as the the strength of target material is simply bypassed: if the acceleration of the jet itself were allowed to continue, it would reach the speed of light in a short amount of time were that possible.

#453713 - 10/01/06 11:18 PM Re: Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  
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Robert Murphy Offline
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-"In case the leopard was hit with an armor piercing round, it may be deflected down towards the turret ring or the tank hull itself.I personally think its a bad design. "

-"This is a cut and paste. I've seen this exact quote in 3-4 other forums in the last 18 months. - It's also appeared in here about 18 months ago."


(Above via the links kindly provided by Mr. BlueSix.)

"As far as the shot trap discussion is concerned, I had a déja-vu when opening the thread..."

Uhm, I was under no delusion that I am the first person to to ask this question when I posted it, it's just I'm too bloody lazy to get of my arse and track down the answer myself. ;\)

Seriously, thanks very much for some most informative and interesting replies all.

Robert

P.S. What do you do if you're advancing through hostile territory, with the possibility of snipers or ambushing infantry at every turn, and you just gotta P like a water main?

OK, that was lame (and vulgar) but it is at least a noobie question you haven't heard a hundred times before, right? ;\)


"I would never allow any man to drag me so low as to hate him."

--Benjamin Disraeli

Send any and all hate-mail and death threats to: rmurphy4949@yahoo.com
#453714 - 10/01/06 11:48 PM Re: Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  
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Robert Murphy Offline
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But Wait!! Here's another lame question! ;\)

OK, I get that 'the wedge' the Leo 2A4/5 consists of 'purposefully' weak armor, and is almost hollow(?) inside; it acts to dissipate HEAT blasts or break up sabot rounds before they hit the very formidable front face armor of the turret.

BUT!!

Why is this armor not sloped? The sheer vertical architecture of the front of the Leo II's turret seems (to my ignorant eye) to be a throwback to that of early-war WWII tanks. Anyone?


"I would never allow any man to drag me so low as to hate him."

--Benjamin Disraeli

Send any and all hate-mail and death threats to: rmurphy4949@yahoo.com
#453715 - 10/02/06 12:40 AM Re: Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Robert Murphy:


Why is this armor not sloped? The sheer vertical architecture of the front of the Leo II's turret seems (to my ignorant eye) to be a throwback to that of early-war WWII tanks. Anyone?
A sloped surface is just one component of it: sophisticated compound and spaced armors can more than offset and make up for the difference- the original M1 tank with its sloped turret face offered inferior performance against KE rounds when compared to the Leopard 2, until they introduced the heavy dU layer into the mix. But it's the ceramic insert of the M1 which spoils HEAT attacks more effectively than the sloped metal by itself.

Similarly, look at the T-90: enemy ammunition has to cope with the base combination armor after already overcoming at least one defensive measure before that, perhaps two if the fancy new gimmicks work as hoped. The basic design however is still the low profile of the T-72, which everbody knows has been discredited. ;\) Prima facie it would seem to be a pathetic vehicle in light of WW2 conventions, if simple size and thickness were the yardstick of protection.

#453716 - 10/02/06 06:34 AM Re: Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  
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True there is more than one way to skin a cat.The Tiger series used massively thick armour at the front to stop shot.The T34 used sloped.Different solutions to the same problem.Today it is the same.Reactive armour,sloped,spaced,composite,DU,chains,wire cages...they all are different approaches to the same threat.

#453717 - 10/02/06 10:11 PM Re: Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Robert Murphy:
P.S. What do you do if you're advancing through hostile territory, with the possibility of snipers or ambushing infantry at every turn, and you just gotta P like a water main?
In the bad old days of 105mm brass casings, an empty cartridge would be a good deposit. Works for other waste, too. Smelly, yes. And be careful when disposing it...
In the worse days of semi-combustible cartridges, a case stub may hold your spit, but not more. On some tanks you have rubber boots. Good for nausea, too. Blessed the crew that thought of taking at least one of those boots inside.


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#453718 - 10/02/06 10:16 PM Re: Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  
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Armor design always is a question of compromises and tradeoffs. Slope reduces plate thickness, but increases internal volume (=needs larger plates) - some of the savings of inert mass must be spent right away. The gain is not much as long as you don't need the internal volume anyway for functional purposes.

HEAT works better against sloped ceramics than ceramic plates at oblique angle. Therefore the Leopard engineers decided that it was best to reduce the internal volume as much as possible and give the reduced surface more thickness.


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#453719 - 10/10/06 02:07 AM Re: Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  
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Robert Murphy Offline
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(Thanks again for all the replies--some very informative stuff here!)

Ssnake, does the term "internal volume" here refer to shaped-charge defeating empty space(s) which is one of the means (if I understand correctly) composite armor blunts the effectiveness of HEAT rounds?

Cheers,

Robert


"I would never allow any man to drag me so low as to hate him."

--Benjamin Disraeli

Send any and all hate-mail and death threats to: rmurphy4949@yahoo.com
#453720 - 10/10/06 09:00 PM Re: Question Re: the Leo's Wedge-Shaped Frontal Turret Armor...  
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No, I think he means the amount of room physically inside the tank. The less internal volume you have, the thicker you can make the outside armour with the same external dimensions. Also affected by slope.

NTM


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