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#4537079 - 09/15/20 12:08 AM Panzer VIII Maus Documents  
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Wow, if you have any interest in tanks in general or this monster in particular here is a treasure trove of documents on the "Maus"

https://www.facebook.com/stephen.tegner/media_set?set=a.2639718119443361&type=3


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#4537081 - 09/15/20 01:15 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Very nice find. thumbsup cheers


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4537091 - 09/15/20 03:43 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Indeed quite interesting

After reading that, i'm amazed that nobody stood up and said "guys, this is not going to work".

The uploader's folders on suspension and wartime colour images are worth a look as well.

#4537109 - 09/15/20 12:22 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Just think how many Panzer IV's and StuG's the Germans could have built instead using the materials wasted on that "Maus". It's a good thing that German wartime armaments production and logistical strategy was idiotic.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4537114 - 09/15/20 01:03 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The 100 of 1000s of weapons that never reached their front line troops because they were marked as defective due to minor cosmetic blemishes and then destroyed.

#4537117 - 09/15/20 01:18 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Just think how many Panzer IV's and StuG's the Germans could have built instead using the materials wasted on that "Maus". It's a good thing that German wartime armaments production and logistical strategy was idiotic.

True enough, except that the even bigger late-war problem was to man the produced/available equipment with qualified/skilled soldiers, be it tanks, planes, ...

#4537121 - 09/15/20 01:47 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
The 100 of 1000s of weapons that never reached their front line troops because they were marked as defective due to minor cosmetic blemishes and then destroyed.



What ?


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4537126 - 09/15/20 02:37 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Saw it in this documentary series. With the war continuing and Nazi Germany fighting on several fronts and not having enough material for all their armies even though their factories were mass producing weapons at a record rate.

The cause was most of their weapons were still made by hand instead of like the USA using the assembly lines that were used for cars. Took forever to build a shipment of machine guns or a fighter or a tank unlike mass production in the USA that were producing them in record numbers daily.

Also the documentary said Hitler didn't allow mass production assembly lines like the USA because he thought that was something that was forced on America by their industry leader who Hitler saw as being all Jews.

Then every item had to be inspected for perfection and in the documentaries they makers of it, dug up production records of Nazi Germany's war factories showing X number of so and so weapon produced in so and so week and only a % of those were shipped, the rest were recorded as destroyed because they were marked as defective when it was just cosmetic stuff like the finish on a gun or the color of the wood of the stock on a shipment of rifles did not all match.

There was like 60,000 MP40 that were mostly destroyed and only a few thousand of them actually reached the front line troops.

It wasn't just just small arms. It was also airplanes and tanks and vehicles and other military material.

It was German engineering still want to be German perfection even when there is a war raging and their troops are in need of every item they can get.

It was also a waste of material, man hours, raw material.

https://yesterday.uktv.co.uk/shows/war-factories/

#4537127 - 09/15/20 02:38 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Hitler was pretty stupid. He made the ME-262 into a bomber, which delayed introduction by over a year. It could have been shooting down B-17's with impunity. He abandoned the attack on Moscow to go after the Ukraine (as a communist state, everything was centralized in Moscow, taking it out would have really damaged soviet C&C). He went halfsies on both Von Rundsted and Rommel's counter invasion plans, rather than picking one (both of which may have worked, and neither would work as a half measure). He ditched Sealion after he decided to invade Russia instead, instead of dealing with them in sequence. Dude made a sh!tton of mistakes. The world is grateful he was an idiot.


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#4537132 - 09/15/20 02:44 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: Paul Morrison]  
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Originally Posted by Paul Morrison
Dude made a sh!tton of mistakes. The world is grateful he was an idiot.


He made a ton of mistakes but in my opinion the two colossal mistakes that cost Germany the war and eventual total defeat was the decision to invade the USSR and the declaration of war on the US. Once Germany was at war with the British Empire, USSR AND the USA it stood absolutely zero chance of winning the war due to the overwhelming combined economic might it was up against.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4537133 - 09/15/20 02:48 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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He was only 29 KM from Moscow and diverted Army Group Center to go South to go to Ukraine to take the oil fields there which l believe is what led to the Battle of Stalingrad.

Hitler was also the reason why he lost the Battle of Britain when he decided to bomb London without destroying the RAF and its airfield. He went into North Africa and Greece and wasted manpower and material there because he allied with Italy who were useless Military anyway. So it was like a big brother constantly getting a little brother out of trouble.

But don't forger, every time he went against his Generals, he reminded of his great military service as enlisted man who won medals and the Iron Cross l in World War 1 and how he knew more about strategy then they did.

#4537145 - 09/15/20 04:13 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: Paul Morrison]  
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Originally Posted by Paul Morrison
Hitler was pretty stupid. He made the ME-262 into a bomber, which delayed introduction by over a year. It could have been shooting down B-17's with impunity.

Like has been said earlier, without well-trained pilots it wouldn't have mattered a lot

Quote
He abandoned the attack on Moscow to go after the Ukraine (as a communist state, everything was centralized in Moscow, taking it out would have really damaged soviet C&C).

But what if Kiev hadn't fallen? With that encirclement, they took out over 700,000 enemies (40+ divisions). By keeping focus towards Moscow, they would have had a massive knife in their flank on which the Soviets would be certain to have even further built upon.

Quote
He ditched Sealion after he decided to invade Russia instead, instead of dealing with them in sequence.

With what would he have invaded Britain with? There were not enough ships for an amphibious assault, no means to provide logistical support, the Royal Navy was ruling the sea and the RAF would've had a field day over England.

Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
(...) mistakes that cost Germany the war and eventual total defeat was the decision to invade the USSR (...)

Both Hitler and Stalin were well-aware that sooner or later, there would be war. The ideological differences, historic grievances and economic interests were just insurmountable. This is also the reason why Stalin tried to delay the inevitable by entering talks with Hitler to settle Russo-Germanic relations for the near future, and making a series of diplomatic moves like the infamous TASS statement of june 14th, 1941. Hitler attacked when the Soviets were still coping with the effects of the purges, and were still unindustrialized. Supported by the great results that the Wehrmacht achieved a year earlier, where they defeated the ghost of 4 years of trench warface in mere weeks, and there wasn't really anything stupid by the decision to invade the Soviet Union.


Last edited by Vaderini; 09/15/20 04:14 PM.
#4537146 - 09/15/20 04:19 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Originally Posted by oldgrognard
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
The 100 of 1000s of weapons that never reached their front line troops because they were marked as defective due to minor cosmetic blemishes and then destroyed.



What ?



My question is about not being used because of minor cosmetic blemishes. I don’t buy that.

I am very aware of bad research and production decisions, but minor cosmetic blemishes ?


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4537147 - 09/15/20 04:27 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: Vaderini]  
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Originally Posted by Vaderini
and there wasn't really anything stupid by the decision to invade the Soviet Union.




What's your response to this then?

https://www.wearethemighty.com/history/hitler-underestimated-the-soviets


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4537153 - 09/15/20 05:22 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by Vaderini
and there wasn't really anything stupid by the decision to invade the Soviet Union.




What's your response to this then?

https://www.wearethemighty.com/history/hitler-underestimated-the-soviets

I don't see where the link provided contradicts what i'm saying. It even acknowledges it!
Quote
But Hitler goes on to say that even if he had known about the military and industrial capacity of the Soviet Union's massive centralized labor force and output potential, he would have invaded anyway. By the winter of 1939-1940, he says, it was clear there would be war between them.


The War in the East was inevitable, and it was better to go at it sooner rather than later.

#4537169 - 09/15/20 06:40 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: Vaderini]  
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Quote
Like has been said earlier, without well-trained pilots it wouldn't have mattered a lot


The Germans still had plenty of talented pilots in 1942.

Quote
But what if Kiev hadn't fallen? With that encirclement, they took out over 700,000 enemies (40+ divisions). By keeping focus towards Moscow, they would have had a massive knife in their flank on which the Soviets would be certain to have even further built upon.


In 1941, the Russian army had plenty of men under arms, but very little in the way of arms. Their soldiers had 1 rifle for 4 men. They had few tanks, few aircraft, and were hopelessly outclassed. But, more importantly, their state was heavily centralized. All C&C came from Moscow, all decisions were made in Moscow, local commanders were scared #%&*$# of Stalin. If the Germans had taken Moscow, then the soviets may well have been made headless. With no orders coming in, the Russian forces would have been extremely uncoordinated, demoralized and effectively neutralized. The germans could have then turned south and rolled up the whole Russian army.

Quote
With what would he have invaded Britain with? There were not enough ships for an amphibious assault, no means to provide logistical support, the Royal Navy was ruling the sea and the RAF would've had a field day over England.


They were 5-10 days from wiping out the RAF by destroying the airfields when they switched to London. If they had concentrated on the airfields the RAF would have been out. The RN was an effective force, but the channel is too small for a large fleet to maneuver, and would have been susceptible to air attack. As for their invasion force, Hitler had a large fleet of invasion barges at Calais throughout the battle of britain. They also had airborne forces.

Quote
Hitler attacked when the Soviets were still coping with the effects of the purges, and were still unindustrialized. Supported by the great results that the Wehrmacht achieved a year earlier, where they defeated the ghost of 4 years of trench warface in mere weeks, and there wasn't really anything stupid by the decision to invade the Soviet Union.


The issue is less whether to invade Russia, but rather when. Finish of the UK first, then invade Russia in 1942. That would have been the smart play.


The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
#4537195 - 09/15/20 09:12 PM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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They were 5-10 days from wiping out the RAF by destroying the airfields when they switched to London. If they had concentrated on the airfields the RAF would have been out. The RN was an effective force, but the channel is too small for a large fleet to maneuver, and would have been susceptible to air attack. As for their invasion force, Hitler had a large fleet of invasion barges at Calais throughout the battle of britain. They also had airborne forces

banghead


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4537211 - 09/16/20 12:29 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Sea lion (lol) would have been the Wehrmachts first major defeat, but it may have provided a German 100 metre swimming record holder.


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#4537214 - 09/16/20 12:56 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: F4UDash4]  
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People talking about Sea Lion and the Battle of Britain rarely discuss the Royal Navy and its capability to destroy most of the invasion "fleet" simply by sailing past the individual low-freeboard river barges at high speed. A minor fact re the equipment of the Heer at this time is the total lack of artillery and nothing but a sprinkling of water-proofed tanks supposed to simply drive ashore and off to London. The rest were rifleman Mk1. The RAF (God Bless Them) could have lost totally over Kent and simply retreated back to Midland airfields, but they didn't lose.

The Navy was even in its depleted state simply overwhelming, the old battleship Revenge alone would have been sufficient. The Luftwaffe had no...repeat...no torpedo-bombers and were hopeless at hitting ships (Ref Dunkirk) with bombs, forget the Stukas...breakfast for any fighter.

Moscow instead of the Ukraine, though.......another story altogether. Barbarossa over by Christmas 1941.


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#4537215 - 09/16/20 01:14 AM Re: Panzer VIII Maus Documents [Re: Mad Max]  
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Originally Posted by Mad Max

Moscow instead of the Ukraine, though.......another story altogether. Barbarossa over by Christmas 1941.


Pretty much, yes Max. People talking about the big army in south, IMHO, are vastly underestimating what the fall of Moscow would have done to Russian morale. Kremlin gone, Stalin hiding...etc.


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