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#4535822 - 09/03/20 11:58 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: LB4LB]  
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The P-51 Mustang (with its 3 internal fuel tanks and 1 drop fuel tanks under each wing) allowed fighter escort for the American and British bombers all the way deep into Germany and back. Also it was capable of 455 mph at 35,000 feet.


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#4535824 - 09/04/20 12:23 AM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
The P-51 Mustang (with its 3 internal fuel tanks and 1 drop fuel tanks under each wing) allowed fighter escort for the American and British bombers all the way deep into Germany and back. Also it was capable of 455 mph at 35,000 feet.



Wow, thanks. screwy


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4535830 - 09/04/20 03:01 AM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: LB4LB]  
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Hey, Nofly. It would be awfully nice if you knew what the hell you were talking about. Most important airplane in history!!? Are you kidding me? The air war would not have been won without it? The early Mustangs weren't "duds" and it just so happens the British DID like it. They used them at low level for, what they called, Army cooperation missons. The USAAF called it Tactical Reconaissance. At sea level, it was one of the fastest airplanes in the world. That's with the Allison engine.
They liked the airframe so much, in fact, that they thought it was worth trying out a Rolls Royce Merlin in it.
The airplane was great, but could the air war have been won without it? Yes. Because Republic designed the P-47N, and had there been no Mustangs, those are the fast, long range fighters that would have wound up escorting 8th Air Force bombers to Germany. Instead, not needed in Europe, P-47N's flew long missions to Japan from Ie Shima and Iwo Jima. VLR missions...very long range.
And the P-51's used during the second world war had a top speed of 435 MPH, not 455.


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#4535834 - 09/04/20 03:28 AM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
Hey, Nofly. It would be awfully nice if you knew what the hell you were talking about. Most important airplane in history!!? Are you kidding me? The air war would not have been won without it? The early Mustangs weren't "duds" and it just so happens the British DID like it. They used them at low level for, what they called, Army cooperation missons. The USAAF called it Tactical Reconaissance. At sea level, it was one of the fastest airplanes in the world. That's with the Allison engine.
They liked the airframe so much, in fact, that they thought it was worth trying out a Rolls Royce Merlin in it.
The airplane was great, but could the air war have been won without it? Yes. Because Republic designed the P-47N, and had there been no Mustangs, those are the fast, long range fighters that would have wound up escorting 8th Air Force bombers to Germany. Instead, not needed in Europe, P-47N's flew long missions to Japan from Ie Shima and Iwo Jima. VLR missions...very long range.
And the P-51's used during the second world war had a top speed of 435 MPH, not 455.


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#4535843 - 09/04/20 07:00 AM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: LB4LB]  
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Maybe you need to Google some, Pooch before you criticize me.

You mention the P-47? Read this:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...smash-hitler-and-win-world-war-ii-124091


One paragraph on page 1 says:
Quote
The bombers were escorted for parts of the missions by U.S. Republic P-47 Thunderbolt fighters, but because of their limited range they could only go as far the western German border.


Another paragraph on page 3 says:
Quote
In May 1941, Lt. Col. Bob Olds was given the task of organizing the ferrying of Lend-Lease planes to England. He was an advocate of adding range to all fighter aircraft to increase their ferrying capability. As part of that effort, Lockheed and Republic were asked to increase the range of the P-38 and P-47 fighters they were producing. The modifications of these aircraft, essential for any escort role, were pushed forward to increase their ferrying range, not their combat range. Thus, by chance the P-38s and P-47s delivered to the Eighth Air Force in 1942 (P-38) and 1943 (P-47) were given the capability to extend their combat ranges. With the addition of the tanks, these fighters could escort the bombers farther but still not far enough. They could not go all the way with the bombers on deep strikes into Germany. German fighters would learn to wait and attack the bombers after the escorts had to turn for home.


again, on page 3, another paragraph:
Quote
The original Mustang as designed for the British had an underpowered Allison engine. It did not perform well at altitudes above 15,000 feet. It was pure serendipity that a pilot who flew one of the early British versions suggested its performance could be significantly improved by replacing the Allison engine with the same Rolls-Royce Merlin engine that powered the RAF Spitfire. That idea was the stroke of genius that made the Mustang a great high-altitude fighter. It matched or bettered the performance of any German fighter except the Messerschmitt Me-262 jet fighter that entered operations too late to affect the outcome of the air war. But even with external drop tanks, the P-51 did not have the range to escort bombers on their deepest penetrations into German territory. It took further design work to come up with a fix.

In the summer of 1943, North American was told to add another 200 gallons of gas storage to the P-51 design. The head of the company said that it was impossible to accomplish because the landing gear would not hold the additional weight. He was told to try it anyway. He did. Schmued was able to modify the design to provide for an 85-gallon fuselage tank to the rear of the armor plate behind the pilot. With further design modifications, the P-51 with the internal tank plus 108-gallon drop tanks could fly to Poland, a round-trip of 1,700 miles, at speeds approaching 440 miles per hour and at altitudes up to 40,000 feet. It was now the fuel load of the bombers that limited the range of Eighth Air Force strikes.


In this: https://www.questia.com/library/journal/1G1-191999630/
Quote
Maj. Gen, William E. Kepner, of the Eighth Air Force Fighter Command, who wrote, the-p-51-mustang-the-most-important-aircraft-in-history This makes the P-51 the most important aircraft in history. I define most important as (1) the aircraft that provided a major change in the direction of a major war and (2) one that was irreplaceable; no other aircraft could have provided this critical capability at that critical juncture.


Also read this starting at page 36 but if you want to read the first 35 pages too, go ahead, you will learn something. https://digitalcommons.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2218&context=gradschool_theses

Only the P51 was able to escort B-17 and RAF bombers deep into Germany and back. The P-47 and the P-38 were good planes but even with their fuel drop tanks, they did not have the range the P-51 had.

#4535845 - 09/04/20 07:32 AM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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re P47 range, please watch this vid


It is rather long , but helps explain some 'shenanigans' re P47 range- it's quite illuminating

#4535847 - 09/04/20 09:06 AM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: LB4LB]  
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I can wholeheartedly recommend the video bolox has posted, it really is an excellent video. And some questions to make yourself question your own reasoning:

Quote
the most important and decisive aircraft ever built in the history of aviation and aircraft development.

Why is the P-51 more important and decisive than the Wright Flyer, Heinkel 178, or the Boeing 747? What would've happened if the P-51 never existed?

Quote
One thing is sure, it was a game changer and without it, the Air War in Europe during World War II would not had won by the Allies.

Why was Germany incapable of winning "the Air War in Europe" before the P-51 arrived? Why did the Luftwaffe bleed dry on the eastern front without the P-51 serving in any relevant numbers?

#4535856 - 09/04/20 11:33 AM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
Hey, Nofly. It would be awfully nice if you knew what the hell you were talking about. Most important airplane in history!!? Are you kidding me? The air war would not have been won without it? The early Mustangs weren't "duds" and it just so happens the British DID like it. They used them at low level for, what they called, Army cooperation missons. The USAAF called it Tactical Reconaissance. At sea level, it was one of the fastest airplanes in the world. That's with the Allison engine.
They liked the airframe so much, in fact, that they thought it was worth trying out a Rolls Royce Merlin in it.
The airplane was great, but could the air war have been won without it? Yes. Because Republic designed the P-47N, and had there been no Mustangs, those are the fast, long range fighters that would have wound up escorting 8th Air Force bombers to Germany. Instead, not needed in Europe, P-47N's flew long missions to Japan from Ie Shima and Iwo Jima. VLR missions...very long range.
And the P-51's used during the second world war had a top speed of 435 MPH, not 455.



+1

More effort than I want to waste on him.


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4535859 - 09/04/20 12:04 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: LB4LB]  
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Besides the point that THIS THREAD ISN'T ABOUT THE P-51 MUSTANG!


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4535860 - 09/04/20 12:04 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: LB4LB]  
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There is no reason to berate NFB, and anyone can learn if they're willing to. Without NFB, the Community Hall wouldn't be as alive as it is now.

#4535861 - 09/04/20 12:22 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: Vaderini]  
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Originally Posted by Vaderini
the Community Hall wouldn't be as alive as it is now.



That is very true and it's also highly indicative of just how far SimHQ has fallen.


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#4535879 - 09/04/20 02:04 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: LB4LB]  
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"That is very true and it's also highly indicative of just how far SimHQ has fallen."

Nah, it's just because we're getting older and crankier!


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#4535884 - 09/04/20 02:27 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: LB4LB]  
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Gain a bit of info, have a light bulb moment and then become the spoken word on the subject... it happens biggrin

#4535895 - 09/04/20 03:42 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: LB4LB]  
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Quote
Only the P51 was able to escort B-17 and RAF bombers deep into Germany and back. The P-47 and the P-38 were good planes but even with their fuel drop tanks, they did not have the range the P-51 had.


P-38s were the first American fighters over Berlin.

P-47s of the 56th FG did reach Berlin in 1945.

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NFB you should improve your Google search and you would have found this, http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4535897 - 09/04/20 03:59 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: LB4LB]  
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Yes, and the P-47 I mentioned quite clearly was the "N " model. Not the short ranged D's that served in Europe. The P-47N was the last major developement of the airlplane and was one of the longest ranging single engined fighters of the war. First of the Thunderbolts to have a wet wing.
Oh wait, is this supposed to be about the F-82?


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

#4535899 - 09/04/20 04:12 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch

Nah, it's just because we're getting older and crankier!


I am going to be the better man and will not go back and forth with some of y'all. Talking to some of y'all is like talking to my sisters and to the wall.

Like I tell my Dad: just because you have lived 30 more years than I have does not automatically makes you always right.

The proverb was right: you really can't teach old dogs new tricks. They are set in their own ways and beliefs and are close minded to new ideas and facts.


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#4535903 - 09/04/20 04:26 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: LB4LB]  
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Only if you listen and LEARN Padawan.

Last edited by KraziKanuK; 09/04/20 05:30 PM.

There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4535907 - 09/04/20 05:14 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: LB4LB]  
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'New ideas and facts' that are barking up the wrong tree should not be listened too either...

#4535908 - 09/04/20 05:15 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy


The proverb was right: you really can't teach old dogs new tricks. They are set in their own ways and beliefs and are close minded to new ideas and facts.



I wouldn't go that far with such a declarative statement. Just because we're older doesn't mean we are stubborn because we are set in our ways. Consider that we have cumulative knowledge built up over the years that we draw from, and the wisdom that this brings. We're not closed minded, we simply have a much broader, in-depth pool of information to draw and extrapolate from stored in our heads.

You won't believe how many times I've said, "Gee, I was such a little dumbarse," to myself over the years as I grew older. I swore I knew everything when I was seventeen. In my forties I now realize that I don't know nearly as much as I thought I did, and I bet by the time I'm as old as my grandparents were, that I'll come to the conclusion, "I don't know a #%&*$# thing."

#4535911 - 09/04/20 05:59 PM Re: XP-82 Twin Mustang [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy


The proverb was right: you really can't teach old dogs new tricks. They are set in their own ways and beliefs and are close minded to new ideas and facts.



I wouldn't go that far with such a declarative statement. Just because we're older doesn't mean we are stubborn because we are set in our ways. Consider that we have cumulative knowledge built up over the years that we draw from, and the wisdom that this brings. We're not closed minded, we simply have a much broader, in-depth pool of information to draw and extrapolate from stored in our heads.

You won't believe how many times I've said, "Gee, I was such a little dumbarse," to myself over the years as I grew older. I swore I knew everything when I was seventeen. In my forties I now realize that I don't know nearly as much as I thought I did, and I bet by the time I'm as old as my grandparents were, that I'll come to the conclusion, "I don't know a #%&*$# thing."


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