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#4532613 - 08/04/20 07:49 PM August 6th, 1945, 75 years later.  
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https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...n-drop-more-than-two-atomic-bombs-japan/

The day the world changed when the US dropped the first Atomic bomb on the Japanese city of Hiroshima.

3 days after that another Atomic bomb was dropped on the Japanese city of Nagasaki.

Are there any survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki still living?

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4532614 - 08/04/20 08:00 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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#4532615 - 08/04/20 08:00 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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#4532617 - 08/04/20 08:26 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Thank you! I cannot imagine the horror they lived through and the nightmares they had.

#4532642 - 08/04/20 10:48 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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#4532647 - 08/04/20 11:13 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: Ajay]  
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Originally Posted by Ajay



Another good read: Retribution: The Battle for Japan, 1944-45

Quote
By the summer of 1944 it was clear that Japan’s defeat was inevitable, but how the drive to victory would be achieved remained to be seen. The ensuing drama—that ended in Japan’s utter devastation—was acted out across the vast stage of Asia, with massive clashes of naval and air forces, fighting through jungles, and barbarities by an apparently incomprehensible foe. In recounting the saga of this time and place, Max Hastings gives us incisive portraits of the theater’s key figures—MacArthur, Nimitz, Mountbatten, Chiang Kai-shek, Mao, Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin. But he is equally adept in his portrayals of the ordinary soldiers and sailors—American, British, Russian, Chinese, and Japanese—caught in some of the war’s bloodiest campaigns.

With unprecedented insight, Hastings discusses Japan’s war against China, now all but forgotten in the West, MacArthur’s follies in the Philippines, the Marines at Iwo Jima and Okinawa, and the Soviet blitzkrieg in Manchuria. He analyzes the decision-making process that led to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki—which, he convincingly argues, ultimately saved lives. Finally, he delves into the Japanese wartime mind-set, which caused an otherwise civilized society to carry out atrocities that haunt the nation to this day.

Retribution is a brilliant telling of an epic conflict from a master military historian at the height of his powers.


“Together, let us take up the challenge to reawaken America's religious and moral heart, recognizing that a deep and abiding faith in God is the rock upon which this great Nation was founded.” - Ronald Reagan, May 4, 1982
#4532649 - 08/04/20 11:23 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Oppenhiemer didn't realize the power that he had released until he witnessed what was probably the largest man made explosion in history up until that time, in the New Mexico desert. He thought of a quote from Hindu scripture in the Bhagavad Gita. "I am become death. The Shatterer Of Worlds."
Some of the scientists involved began to have second thoughts. Some thought that, maybe, the Japanese should be shown what the weapon could do and that they would surrender. But I am of the opinion that had it not been used, the invasion of Japan, in November of '45, would have cost many more lives. They would have fought to the last man, woman and child. It would have been the worst bloodbath in history.


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

#4532652 - 08/04/20 11:35 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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+1 Pooch


And to think that all of this could have been avoided had Japan surrendered earlier instead of fanatically fighting until the end. Tojo and Hirohito had plenty of chances so those unfortunate deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were on their hands.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 08/04/20 11:37 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4532657 - 08/04/20 11:47 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
Oppenhiemer didn't realize the power that he had released until he witnessed what was probably the largest man made explosion in history up until that time, in the New Mexico desert. He thought of a quote from Hindu scripture in the Bhagavad Gita. "I am become death. The Shatterer Of Worlds."
Some of the scientists involved began to have second thoughts. Some thought that, maybe, the Japanese should be shown what the weapon could do and that they would surrender. But I am of the opinion that had it not been used, the invasion of Japan, in November of '45, would have cost many more lives. They would have fought to the last man, woman and child. It would have been the worst bloodbath in history.



Additionally they were going to execute all the prisoners they held. The quick surrender stopped that from happening. So I count the saving of tens of thousands of prisoners to greatly offset any horror of the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4532806 - 08/06/20 06:50 AM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
Some thought that, maybe, the Japanese should be shown what the weapon could do and that they would surrender. But I am of the opinion that had it not been used, the invasion of Japan, in November of '45, would have cost many more lives. They would have fought to the last man, woman and child. It would have been the worst bloodbath in history.


That is not really an opinion. The Japanese army in particular was barely phased by the first atomic bomb, and even after two of Japan's cities had been burned to ashes many in the Japanese upper ranks were advocating for continuing the war. The atomic bombs (couple of the Soviet declaration of war ending the Japanese fantasy that the Soviets were going to broker a negotiated peace between Japan and the western Allies) gave the peace faction the political will necessary to end the war, but it would be ridiculous to suggest that a neutral demonstration would have given the Japanese government the same shock.

#4532829 - 08/06/20 01:53 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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This thread should probably be in PWEC, but we'll see how it goes.

Some useful context provided in this article:
https://townhall.com/columnists/vic...al-august-debate-over-the-bombs-n2573760

#4532832 - 08/06/20 02:02 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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There were couple online articles this week saying Japan surrendered not because of the 2 atomic bombs, but because Russia declared war on them and the Japanese were more afraid of the Russians than the Americans .

#4532833 - 08/06/20 02:08 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
There were couple online articles this week saying Japan surrendered not because of the 2 atomic bombs, but because Russia declared war on them and the Japanese were more afraid of the Russians than the Americans .


That is indeed a possibility since the Japanese army knew that they stood no chance against the Soviet steam-roller in Manchuria in 1945.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 08/06/20 02:09 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4532836 - 08/06/20 02:41 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Nimits, I'm not the one making the "rediculous" suggestion that the bomb should have been demonstrated to the Japanese. It was made by some scientists who were part of the Manhattan Project. And I also don't understand what it was that I wrote which "is not really an opinion." Clarify.


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Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

#4532845 - 08/06/20 04:51 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
There were couple online articles this week saying Japan surrendered not because of the 2 atomic bombs, but because Russia declared war on them and the Japanese were more afraid of the Russians than the Americans .


That is indeed a possibility since the Japanese army knew that they stood no chance against the Soviet steam-roller in Manchuria in 1945.



The Soviets had little capability to direct any meaningful attack against the Japanese home islands.

Only the US had the capability of launching a massive amphibious assault against the Japanese home islands.

Only the US could mount massive bombing raids against the Japanese home islands, conventional and nuclear.

Only the US could completely cut off and starve out the Japanese home islands with submarines and air dropped naval mines.

And I'm pretty sure the Japanese were well aware of this.


“Together, let us take up the challenge to reawaken America's religious and moral heart, recognizing that a deep and abiding faith in God is the rock upon which this great Nation was founded.” - Ronald Reagan, May 4, 1982
#4532849 - 08/06/20 05:15 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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When Hirohito made his announcement to the Japanese about their country surrendering to the Allies, he said,

"The enemy has deployed a new most cruel bomb that could result not just in the obliteration of the nation but the total extinction of human civilisation." There is good reason to suspect that the Bombs were his primary reasons for ending the war.
The timing of Russia's entry into the war against Japan was no accident, I think. Stalin had a spy in the Manhattan Project. He knew the weapon was about to be used. He had to get into the war on Japan or the Soviet Union would not gain any land concessions from the Japanese.

Last edited by Pooch; 08/06/20 05:17 PM.

"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

#4532859 - 08/06/20 07:01 PM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
There were couple online articles this week saying Japan surrendered not because of the 2 atomic bombs, but because Russia declared war on them and the Japanese were more afraid of the Russians than the Americans .


That is indeed a possibility since the Japanese army knew that they stood no chance against the Soviet steam-roller in Manchuria in 1945.



The Soviets had little capability to direct any meaningful attack against the Japanese home islands.

Only the US had the capability of launching a massive amphibious assault against the Japanese home islands.

Only the US could mount massive bombing raids against the Japanese home islands, conventional and nuclear.

Only the US could completely cut off and starve out the Japanese home islands with submarines and air dropped naval mines.

And I'm pretty sure the Japanese were well aware of this.


The problem is the Japanese High Command weren't aware of anything that wasn't part of their plan. They continued to fight the war without deviating from a rigid strategy from the first setbacks, without adapting to the situation as the war progressed. Further hampered by interservice rivalry and dismissing all Humint and sigint as the 'chattering of old women'. Therefore they overestimated the Soviet threat and tied up millions of troops in Manchuria, idle apart from exploitation and persecution of the populace. Adding to the 30 million dead there whom apologists for the use of the bombs tend to overlook in their outrage.
The atomic bombs often seem to be considered in isolation because of their immediate carnage and destruction, the Japanese people had suffered higher losses of centres of population primarly constructed of wood with war industries interspersed. And still the blinkered and rigid command would not give in.
I perceive the most egregious error of the Japanese Navy was the lack of offence against or defence of merchant shipping, not considered an honourable action within the interpreation of Bushido.



#4532887 - 08/07/20 12:50 AM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer

And to think that all of this could have been avoided had Japan surrendered earlier instead of fanatically fighting until the end. Tojo and Hirohito had plenty of chances so those unfortunate deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were on their hands.


I don't know if they could have surrendered earlier. They were still split on surrendering, and they didn't try to contact the US or UK about surrendering. They did try to contact Russia, who ignored them, up until they declared war on Japan.

#4532901 - 08/07/20 05:01 AM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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#4532916 - 08/07/20 11:07 AM Re: August 6th, 1945, 75 years later. [Re: wormfood]  
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Originally Posted by wormfood


I don't know if they could have surrendered earlier. They were still split on surrendering, and they didn't try to contact the US or UK about surrendering. They did try to contact Russia, who ignored them, up until they declared war on Japan.



The point of my previous post wasn't about whether or not the Japanese leadership could agree among themselves to surrender earlier but rather that the ethical/moral onus was on them and not the US for the consequences of the atomic bombs.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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