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#4531042 - 07/23/20 12:52 AM Old Trek vs New Trek  
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This YouTube channel "Major Grin" has a created quite a large playlist of video snippets highlighting how New Trek (Picard, Discovery) differs from and ignores so much of what has come before. Some will say so much the better, but I think not.

Here are a few examples:


https://youtu.be/vPGz7Lb5eBU



https://youtu.be/1jSTMkXqz8o



https://youtu.be/RRSx2p1h4EI



https://youtu.be/4LqQhx4Wvoc



https://youtu.be/vJEUCSguMAQ



https://youtu.be/KtzTouSJJ_0


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
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#4531048 - 07/23/20 03:23 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Yeah, that pretty much ensures I will never want to watch Discovery or Picard.

#4531060 - 07/23/20 05:41 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The last video is reason enough to never watch the new series. Seems like they hired some terrible showrunners.

#4531064 - 07/23/20 08:32 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: Nimits]  
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Originally Posted by Nimits
Yeah, that pretty much ensures I will never want to watch Discovery or Picard.


You really should watch them for yourself, and not let some net-hater make up your mind for you.
You might very well still not like it, but at least you've made the determination based on your own view.

#4531073 - 07/23/20 11:56 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Looking at this controversy objectively, hasn't this cycle been going on with Star Trek for a long time? For example, I know quite a few fans of the original ST crew who don't care at all for TNG or anything else that came after that. So for them, "real" Star Trek is ST: TOS and the 6 theatrical films from ST: TMP through Star Trek VI.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4531077 - 07/23/20 12:19 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
Originally Posted by Nimits
Yeah, that pretty much ensures I will never want to watch Discovery or Picard.


You really should watch them for yourself, and not let some net-hater make up your mind for you.
You might very well still not like it, but at least you've made the determination based on your own view.



Well this old net-hater has watched them both, fanboi.

My opinion remains the same. They are at times mildly entertaining sci-fi but they're not "Star Trek" except in name.

Hey here's an idea, you should really watch the videos I posted and see if you can see the valid points being made, if not at least you've made the determination based on having actually watched them.


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4531101 - 07/23/20 05:02 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I was talking to Nimits, not you.

And why should I watch them? I've watched both Picard and Discovery and I enjoy both shows very much.

Why should I watch a hater-video? Last thing I want to do is fund these people in any way, shape or form. He's not going to change my mind about the shows.

#4531116 - 07/23/20 07:36 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
And why should I watch them?


Because they point out the endless stream of inconsistencies and total ignorance of canon in the new trek shows.


Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
He's not going to change my mind about the shows.



Nor you mine.


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4531288 - 07/25/20 02:58 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
Originally Posted by Nimits
Yeah, that pretty much ensures I will never want to watch Discovery or Picard.


You really should watch them for yourself, and not let some net-hater make up your mind for you.
You might very well still not like it, but at least you've made the determination based on your own view.





The vulgar language in those clips is enough on its own to make me give them a pass.

I abandoned the second season of Jack Ryan in part because of the absurd number of f-bombs in the first two or three episodes.

Last edited by Nimits; 07/25/20 02:58 AM.
#4531313 - 07/25/20 12:42 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: Nimits]  
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Originally Posted by Nimits
Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
Originally Posted by Nimits
Yeah, that pretty much ensures I will never want to watch Discovery or Picard.


You really should watch them for yourself, and not let some net-hater make up your mind for you.
You might very well still not like it, but at least you've made the determination based on your own view.





The vulgar language in those clips is enough on its own to make me give them a pass.

I abandoned the second season of Jack Ryan in part because of the absurd number of f-bombs in the first two or three episodes.


I'm with you.

I read something interesting recently. Everyone always say how cursing makes war movies more realistic. Maybe it does for a modern war, but not necessarily WWII. Early "Band of Brothers" scripts had Major Winters curse throughout the series. Winters himself complained to Tom Hanks, said he did not curse. Hanks said it made the show more believable, Winters stood his ground and eventually all of "his" cursing was removed.

Likewise many of the other real Easy Company veterans said there was too much cursing from the other characters as well, they said that they actually rarely cursed. "Not when you could meet your Maker any minute" according to one. But it's taken as a given nowadays that there must be cursing in every other sentence in a war movie.

I think some producers just like to be edgy, do something that's not been done before. Non-broadcast TV that gets around FCC rules gives them an opportunity. Some seem to get a childish thrill out of the cursing they can now get away with. I recall an interview with Ron Moore and he was giddy about getting away with "frak", it was really childish the way the whole thing thrilled him so. Likewise in one of the videos above Kurtzman feels the need to tell the audience "F*ck, that's the "f-word" by the way" as if everyone didn't know, he just wanted to be edgy and actually say it. They're like kids who just learned a new curse word and want to say it every chance they get in front of their friends because it makes them sound cool or tough.

The impact of Kirk saying "Let's get the hell out of here" at the end of "City of the Edge of Forever" was powerful. Now there is nothing left, nothing held back that can be reserved and then used for a moment like that one when it would really be meaningful.


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4531348 - 07/25/20 04:31 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Nimits
Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
Originally Posted by Nimits
Yeah, that pretty much ensures I will never want to watch Discovery or Picard.


You really should watch them for yourself, and not let some net-hater make up your mind for you.
You might very well still not like it, but at least you've made the determination based on your own view.





The vulgar language in those clips is enough on its own to make me give them a pass.

I abandoned the second season of Jack Ryan in part because of the absurd number of f-bombs in the first two or three episodes.


I'm with you.

I read something interesting recently. Everyone always say how cursing makes war movies more realistic. Maybe it does for a modern war, but not necessarily WWII. Early "Band of Brothers" scripts had Major Winters curse throughout the series. Winters himself complained to Tom Hanks, said he did not curse. Hanks said it made the show more believable, Winters stood his ground and eventually all of "his" cursing was removed.

Likewise many of the other real Easy Company veterans said there was too much cursing from the other characters as well, they said that they actually rarely cursed. "Not when you could meet your Maker any minute" according to one. But it's taken as a given nowadays that there must be cursing in every other sentence in a war movie.

I think some producers just like to be edgy, do something that's not been done before. Non-broadcast TV that gets around FCC rules gives them an opportunity. Some seem to get a childish thrill out of the cursing they can now get away with. I recall an interview with Ron Moore and he was giddy about getting away with "frak", it was really childish the way the whole thing thrilled him so. Likewise in one of the videos above Kurtzman feels the need to tell the audience "F*ck, that's the "f-word" by the way" as if everyone didn't know, he just wanted to be edgy and actually say it. They're like kids who just learned a new curse word and want to say it every chance they get in front of their friends because it makes them sound cool or tough.

The impact of Kirk saying "Let's get the hell out of here" at the end of "City of the Edge of Forever" was powerful. Now there is nothing left, nothing held back that can be reserved and then used for a moment like that one when it would really be meaningful.

That sums up my feelings pretty well also, and I specifically thought of the "City on the Edge of Forever" when going through this topic. I don't mind cursing where appropriate, but as you say, it's almost like they're children who found out they can get away with something they couldn't before and have to use it all the time. Deadpool had lots of cursing, but it flowed well and fit the movie. In these Star Trek shows, it's just frivolous, and has been said, somewhat counter to the established canon.


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#4531515 - 07/27/20 12:16 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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From profane to inane, Kurztman Trek covers the gamut.




https://youtu.be/WO3GUzzS0Qw


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4531532 - 07/27/20 03:18 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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There is very little reverence left for anything anymore. Modern "artists" congratulate themselves that they have made something new, when all they have done is deconstruct and debase what more skilled men created.

#4531545 - 07/27/20 05:17 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Well it's not like tng didn't have swearing.

Or did they finally edit out Picard saying Merde?

Or Riker saying verule? (OK that ones made up.. But he still swore none the less....)

#4531560 - 07/27/20 10:06 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: Khai]  
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Originally Posted by Khai
Well it's not like tng didn't have swearing.

Or did they finally edit out Picard saying Merde?

Or Riker saying verule? (OK that ones made up.. But he still swore none the less....)



There is a difference in degree and quantity.

There is Rhett Butler cursing once in "Gone With The Wind" at one end of the spectrum and "Wolf of Wall Street" at the other end, both have swearing but they're not the same.


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4531584 - 07/27/20 01:19 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The good thing about ST (tv shows) IMO, is that it has always evolved and fit well in the time each show came on. TOS wouldn’t work in another era when TNG did, TNG wouldn’t work now and so on. Likewise none would work in an earlier era. That is, as new releases, certainly they’re all great to revisit and hold up well like that. The sign of well made shows.
Picard...I can see that being polarizing, but what I liked the most is that it fleshed out the universe more whereas other shows left it pretty sterile. Before, you mainly saw governments, military, scientists or farmers on a colony somewhere, portrayed as somewhat backwards.
Discovery I friggin love. Too ambitious the first season, they took on too much, but still one of the best first seasons of a ST show. The second they really nailed. Looking forward to the new shows, especially Pike’s. They’ve done a good job building strong, interesting characters to take off with.


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#4531585 - 07/27/20 01:23 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
The good thing about ST (tv shows) IMO, is that it has always evolved and fit well in the time each show came on. TOS wouldn’t work in another era when TNG did, TNG wouldn’t work now and so on. Likewise none would work in an earlier era.
.



Agreed. Let's face it, audiences change over time and to assume that a certain formula that worked in one era will work again in the current era is misguided. To use another example, the Tim Burton Batman movies today are largely seen as campy comic book adaptations and would garner a lot of laughs (in a negative way) but back in the late 80's and early 90's the audiences loved those films.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/27/20 01:47 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4531590 - 07/27/20 01:43 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Oh yeah, Batman was exciting because it was considered dark and hardcore Batman for the first time.

Hollywood does tend to feel it has to raise the bar as a crutch, but sometimes the new stuff is just plain better in spite of that, not because of it. 24 had to raise the stakes every season to a point they eventually just couldn’t keep up with. The first season is still the best.
Discovery made the same mistake with the battle at the end of season 2. Big battles aren’t necessarily more intense. That’s probably my only criticism of season 2 though. In WoK it was much more intense.
Remember ST 3 when they lost the Enterprise? It was devastating, like a major character being killed off. In ST Generations, it was still rough. The recent ST movies...who cares? The ship wasn’t seen as anything but a taxi, so when it gets beaten up, I just find it ridiculous how long it goes on. Kill it, they’ll just 3D print another one in no time. LOL I think they’ve improved on that with Discovery, the ship is once again part of the cast.


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#4531655 - 07/27/20 09:14 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I agree that shows need to change with the times, and also, I think the early TNG shows were very different than the original series, and that came from Roddenberry himself - I think his views changed over time. I actually think the shows got better after he was gone (RIP), because they could do things that he didn't allow.

That said, I think there's still a canon that has been established that a lot of the swearing and attitudes of the newer shows don't 't fit into. When they did the Abrams Trek movies, I had a thought, and I think it applies here, as well, which is, why call it Star Trek if you're going to make it a very different show?

I know that Hollywood loves an established franchise for safety, but if you're going to change it to a large degree, it seems you're going to limit your audience. People who didn't like Star Trek won't watch it because it's called Star Trek, and people who do like Star Trek won't like it because it's too different from the show they expected.


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#4531665 - 07/27/20 11:03 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The recent movies really are an odd situation. It's like a very expensive experiment to see if you can make ST movies independent of a tv show and cast. I really like the cast of the movies, but the movies themselves are very forgettable since they managed to lose the attachment to the characters that the fans had. ST just doesn't work without a show and regularly seen cast the way that SW does. They counted too much on the fans knowing the Kirk-Spock relationship and didn't bother to develop it themselves in any way. I think it might have been ok to continue calling it Star Trek, but they should've picked up new characters and stuck to a shorter timeline for the movies so you could grow to appreciate them. Preferably without the major changes they adopted. It WAS nice to see Nimoy on there, but they still could've included him.


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