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#4531699 - 07/28/20 06:08 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
ST just doesn't work without a show and regularly seen cast the way that SW does. They counted too much on the fans knowing the Kirk-Spock relationship and didn't bother to develop it themselves in any way.


Eh, I think you give Abrams more credit too much credit. As demonstrated by his body of work, it seems his main idea for character development is a toss in a random "surprise" twist out of left field followed by an improbably-sized (space) ship . . .

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#4531710 - 07/28/20 09:51 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: Nimits]  
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Originally Posted by Nimits
Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
ST just doesn't work without a show and regularly seen cast the way that SW does. They counted too much on the fans knowing the Kirk-Spock relationship and didn't bother to develop it themselves in any way.


Eh, I think you give Abrams more credit too much credit. As demonstrated by his body of work, it seems his main idea for character development is a toss in a random "surprise" twist out of left field followed by an improbably-sized (space) ship . . .



And lens flares, lots and lots of lens flares.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4531773 - 07/28/20 04:30 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted by Arthonon
I agree that shows need to change with the times, and also, I think the early TNG shows were very different than the original series, and that came from Roddenberry himself - I think his views changed over time. I actually think the shows got better after he was gone (RIP), because they could do things that he didn't allow.



They grew worse after he died.

Roddenberry kept them nerdy and quirky and breathed life into the characters--he was the heart and soul of Star Trek and could literally name every single component on a starship and how everything functioned. The new movies focused more on action and less on characters and plot, though I can see why after lessons were learned from "ST: The Motion Picture" and applied to "The Wrath of Khan." They learned the wrong lessons, however. ST II actually understood pacing and didn't overwhelm the audience with nonstop action, and maintained dramatic pacing and tension throughout, while still allowing for that Star Trek sense of awe and discovery that is important and crucial to the franchise. The new movies, for the most part, fail at this--especially the most recent film, "Beyond," which I felt was abysmal.

I actually liked "ST: The Motion Picture," and watched it over and over as a kid, because it was raw, pure science fiction and the polar opposite of "Hollywood." It almost felt as if it could have been something written by Heinlein, Asimov or Clarke, and that's saying a lot and a true complement to Roddenberry because he really stepped up his game there. I also loved "Wrath of Khan," however, because it preserved the ST ethos and built upon it further.

Enterprise was the last decent series for me, mostly because it maintained some of that crucial nerdiness that is essential for Star Trek.

I don't want swearing, gritty, in your face hoohah with anything new that is made, nor do I want a repackaged kid's rollercoaster ride movie like "Beyond" was. I want good 'ole fashioned Star Trek. If they can't give us that then they might as well leave it be, until someone worthy enough of Roddenberry's legacy, who respects what the man did and stood for in his writing, comes along and brings the universe properly back to life.


Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 07/28/20 04:32 PM.
#4531775 - 07/28/20 04:36 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman


I actually liked "ST: The Motion Picture," and watched it over and over as a kid, because it was raw, pure science fiction and the polar opposite of "Hollywood." It almost felt as if it could have been something written by Heinlein, Asimov or Clarke, and that's saying a lot and a true complement to Roddenberry because he really stepped up his game there. .





I am 100% of the same mind here. The influence of 2001 on TMP is undeniable. All you have to do is watch the Spock walk sequence as he enters the deeper interior of V-Ger using the jetpack. That influence from 2001 is what made TMP such a "thinking man's" science fiction film.


When it comes to Wrath of Khan, the brilliance of that film is how it proved that you CAN have action scenes and intelligent dialogue and profound sci-fi concepts at the same time.


Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/28/20 04:36 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4531782 - 07/28/20 05:18 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Roddenberry would have ruined Trek had he lived longer and maintained overall control. His original concept was brilliant but somewhere along the line he went off the deep end. It is said he wanted no internal conflict between starship crew members, everyone just got along because they had evolved beyond base instincts. In other words he wanted Trek to be the exact opposite of 'Picard' where everyone is at each other's throats. Both extremes are terrible.

I think the best balance of interpersonal interaction and overall tone is somewhere between TNG and DS9.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4531801 - 07/28/20 07:13 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I'd heard about the no-internal-conflict as well, and agree that you need a little to make it interesting. Also, Roddenberry wanted the Ferengi to replace the Klingons as the bad guy, and they would represent capitalism, which he then considered a great evil. When I look back at the first few seasons and am reminded about how bland and boring they were, I think that is mostly due to Roddenberry's control. The crew seemed to mostly be along for the ride in most of those early episodes, and not really doing a whole lot.


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#4531805 - 07/28/20 07:26 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted by Arthonon
Also, Roddenberry wanted the Ferengi to replace the Klingons as the bad guy, and they would represent capitalism, which he then considered a great evil.



And what hypocrisy, coming from the guy who wrote goofy lyrics to the TOS theme music solely so he could claim royalty rights on it.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4531811 - 07/28/20 08:13 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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+1 F4U

The estimated net worth of Roddenberry at his time of death was 500 million.

Hmm... I guess the “evils” of capitalism didn’t account for any of that 500 million.....


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4533053 - 08/09/20 12:27 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I wasn't going to share this, then I got to the end of the video... watch it all the way through and you'll see what I mean (but don't cheat, watch it from the beginning!)



https://youtu.be/BesKS-bCDbo


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4533396 - 08/12/20 11:50 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Wow, even I didn't expect this.

Exclusive – Star Trek: Picard Lost Nearly Half Its Audience Before The Finale


Quote
Star Trek: Picard is in trouble. Though the first episode of the show set new records for CBS All-Access when it premiered in January of 2020, viewers quickly abandoned the show as they realized what they were watching. CBS has refused to reveal any of the actual viewership numbers for the series, but we have an inside source who has exclusively slipped us the real numbers.

This is the same source who made us the first outlet to break the news that Star Trek: Strange New Worlds was happening, so they’ve proven their reliability. That said, we only have one source for this data and we generally prefer to have two sources before reporting something like this. Read on with that context in mind.

According to our source at CBS, though the premiere episode of Star Trek: Picard broke records by recording the biggest number of tune-ins for any CBS All-Access show at that time, those numbers quickly fell off. Our source says that by the time show’s final episode aired on March 26th, the number of people watching Star Trek: Picard in the United States had fallen by 45%.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4533422 - 08/13/20 07:50 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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This is nothing new.

Most shows never exceed their initial episode viewers.

Star Trek: Enterprise:
First episodes: 12 million viewers.
Final episode of season 1: 5,3 million viewers.
Final final episode: 3,8 million viewers.

TNG
First episode: 15,7 million
Last episode of season 1: 10,2 million.

Voyager:
First Episode: 21,3 million
LAst episode of season 1: 6,1 million

#4533432 - 08/13/20 10:37 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
This is nothing new.

Most shows never exceed their initial episode viewers.

Star Trek: Enterprise:
First episodes: 12 million viewers.
Final episode of season 1: 5,3 million viewers.
Final final episode: 3,8 million viewers.

TNG
First episode: 15,7 million
Last episode of season 1: 10,2 million.

Voyager:
First Episode: 21,3 million
LAst episode of season 1: 6,1 million




Both TNG and Voyager lasted 7 seasons. Picard's numbers are just for 1 year.


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#4533437 - 08/13/20 11:06 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Streaming shows have yet to have any kind of industry-accepted method for measuring ratings/audience numbers so it's extremely difficult right now to gauge just how popular streaming shows are.

Working on the assumption that businesses always want to make a profit, all you can say for now is that if a streaming service renews a show, they are happy with the current audience numbers and if they cancel a show then they were not happy with the audience numbers.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4533438 - 08/13/20 11:30 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: Allaire]  
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Originally Posted by Allaire
Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
This is nothing new.

Most shows never exceed their initial episode viewers.

Star Trek: Enterprise:
First episodes: 12 million viewers.
Final episode of season 1: 5,3 million viewers.
Final final episode: 3,8 million viewers.

TNG
First episode: 15,7 million
Last episode of season 1: 10,2 million.

Voyager:
First Episode: 21,3 million
LAst episode of season 1: 6,1 million




Both TNG and Voyager lasted 7 seasons. Picard's numbers are just for 1 year.

My figures are all for Season 1. Start end end of first season, which are comparable.

Espesially Voyagers are interesting, it still had 7 season after dropping over 70% views in the first season.

#4533439 - 08/13/20 11:34 AM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog

Espesially Voyagers are interesting, it still had 7 season after dropping over 70% views in the first season.


Yes, I was also surprised by that big drop. It would be difficult yet interesting to investigate the reasons behind that massive drop in the audience.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4533498 - 08/13/20 04:56 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Janeway's voice was annoying, to me at least. smile So that's one reason viewers might have stopped watching. She lacked the suave and calming smooth of Picard or Kirk, and instead was resonant, terse and harsh.


Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 08/13/20 04:57 PM.
#4533499 - 08/13/20 05:03 PM Re: Old Trek vs New Trek [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Janeway's voice was annoying, to me at least. smile So that's one reason viewers might have stopped watching. She lacked the suave and calming smooth of Picard or Kirk, and instead was resonant, terse and harsh.




That's possible but I think a bigger factor was the fact that for most of its run, Voyager aired at the same time DS 9 did. I think it was a mistake for Paramount to have had two ST series going at the same time. I think there was some cannibalization of viewers since DS9 was clearly the more popular ST show at the time.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 08/13/20 05:03 PM.

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