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#4528596 - 07/03/20 10:49 PM OT: Selling 1080Ti FE  
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kksnowbear Offline
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Shameless plug; thought I'd mention this specifically in here. Limited posting so far (not on auction sites or any other sites as yet).

Selling a 1080Ti, although I do hate to see it go: >HERE<

Admin/mod, please feel free to move/delete if this is inappropriate. No offense intended.

#4528602 - 07/03/20 11:00 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Hey kk, how would this compare to the two EVGA GeForce GTX 970 04G-P4-3975-KR 4gb cards with HB SLI bridge I am currently running?

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#4528606 - 07/03/20 11:28 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Hiya Lou smile Great question...

I test lots of systems, with different GPU/CPU combinations; currently I have over 575 test files (using various versions of the very popular 3DMark benchmark). Although I haven't specifically built and tested a 970 SLI setup, I could offer an extrapolation of sorts:

Typically, SLI setups are good for around 50% increase in whatever the same system was capable of with a single card; 1.5x or 150% the performance, if you will. That's typical, and it does vary, but it's much more common to be less than that, as opposed to more.

I have tested several setups with a variety of 970s, we'll say they score around 16000 in Graphics performance for single card systems. By extrapolation, then, I'd put a 970 SLI setup around 24000. By comparison, the 1080Ti's that I've tested usually go around 34000-38000 (even had one hit 40000). So, doing the math, that works out to maybe 58% improvement.

Your case is somewhat special, though (as if we didn't all know that already biggrin )...

The thing is, you're using a very capable but perhaps long in the tooth CPU as I recall...a 2nd gen i7, yes? Man, those are great CPUs...but it's been a long time now. It is actually possible to mismatch a GPU to a CPU (and vice versa). Sometimes people refer to this as 'bottlenecking' the GPU or CPU with a component that is under-matched. I don't prefer that term, because it sort of implies the GPU won't still increase performance as much as it will. In my experience, the GPU will still perform at a similar level comparatively, but just not as much as it might if it were matched more closely to the CPU.

In other words, while I think you'd still see a big improvement by going to a 1080Ti, it likely wouldn't be as much of an improvement as if you were using a more capable CPU (say a 4790k or better, which can usually go about 150% what a good 2nd gen i7 like yours will do). While I've never tested an intentionally mismatched 2nd gen i7 with a 1080Ti, I did test a 4th gen i5 4460 with a 1080Ti...and it did knock the 1080Ti back about 30% of what it would do with a better-matched CPU (while still delivering a huge increase compared to other GPUs with the same CPU).

I hope that answers the question adequately smile

#4528609 - 07/03/20 11:39 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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An in-depth and thorough explanation kk, just what I would expect from you. biggrin Thanks! So, let me then ask this: Based on my current system specs listed below, what could I conceivably upgrade my CPU to if I were to go with the GPU you are offering?


CPU: Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz LGA 1155 95W Quad-Core, OC’d to 3.8GHz
CPU Fan: Arctic Super Cooler
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 16gb (4 x 4gb) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
Mobo: ASUS Sabertooth P67
Hard Drives: 2 Western Digital 640 GB Caviar Black SATA
Opti Drive: LG 22X DVD+/RW Dual Layer SATA Rewrite
Video Cards: Two EVGA GeForce GTX 970 04G-P4-3975-KR 4gb cards with HB SLI bridge
PS: Corsair HX 850 Watt
OS: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
LG 34UC89G-B 34-Inch 21:9 curved IPS monitor with G-SYNC, 2560x1080 native resolution
Four large case fans, plus the PS, CPU, mobo, and card fans
Saitek AV8R joystick
Saitek Pro Flight rudder pedals
Track IR4 camera with latest IR5 software

.

#4528611 - 07/04/20 12:00 AM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Well, the unfortunate reality in this case is that the CPU you have is (probably) near enough the motherboards max that you'd really have to change motherboards. And, as I'm sure you know, that also means changing RAM.

A lot of the other stuff you have might be re-used, for example the drives, and that's a great power supply.

For you, I'd say if you found an exceptional deal on something high-end 4th or 5th gen, that's the least it would take to make it worth it. And to be perfectly honest, it's probably worth the money to at least consider something 6th or 7th gen if your budget permits. And don't forget to consider the latest retail offerings, because sales are common and the Intel 10th gen has just come out (Meaning the 9th gen stuff just got a lot more attractive - again, budget permitting).

HTH smile

#4528612 - 07/04/20 12:08 AM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Thank's kk, that's sort of what I figured as well, but I wanted a second and more knowledgeable opinion. Looks like I'll be sliding my old computer over into the number two slot and building a whole new box from scratch. Of course, to that end, the GPU you're offering would be an excellent and affordable start on that project.

.

.

#4528626 - 07/04/20 04:57 AM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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you don't need to change your RAM if you go with a 6700k and a z170 motherboard that supports ddr3. IMHO, that would be your best option for cost+performance to take advantage of the 1080 ti. This combo will gain you significant improvement over your current system. A 4790k (plus a z97 motherboard) would also be a good choice, but it probably costs about the same as (if not more than) a 6700k.

Either way, if you're looking to buy new, then it will probably cost you close to $1K for these components (CPU, motherboard, KK's 1080 ti). I don't know how much used is going for.

#4528646 - 07/04/20 01:16 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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I don't know that I'd recommend buying a more recent motherboard/chipset as an upgrade, but saving $75 or so by re-using DDR3-1600 RAM.

For one thing, there are comparatively few Z170 boards that will run DDR3L, so your choices would be limited (which in turn will limit price options). But more significantly, the speed: Here is a comment by a Corsair rep over on their website, from back when the question of using DDR3 on Z170 was current:

"DDR3L offerings for Skylake stop at 2133MHz, while DDR4’s clock ceiling just keeps rising."

>LINK<

Now, a lot of people are going to jump all over the speed question, saying that in order to get faster speeds than DDR3, DDR4 has higher latency (lower latency is better). Well, here's what Corsair has to say:

"The real question and concern most users have when it comes to DDR4 is the higher latency, but as it turns out, this isn’t a very significant issue. DDR3-1600 has higher latency than any DDR4 on the market, while DDR3-2133’s latency is only marginally lower than DDR4-2400"

I believe it accurate to say most Z170 chipsets will support DDR4 that easily runs twice as fast as DDR3-1600 (and beyond). So again, I don't know why you'd want to spend what it will cost to replace a motherboard and CPU worthy of an upgrade, then re-use memory that's half the speed just to save ~$75.

Also, a technical point: DDR3 and DDR3L are not the same thing. The "L" at the end stands for "Low power", which means the voltage supported is on the order of 1.35v instead of 1.5v. It looks like the Z170 boards that use DDR3 actually support DDR3L, and not all DDR3 RAM will function properly at the lower voltage level (if it runs at all). So any given set of DDR3 RAM may not even be supported on a Z170 board. I'd say you'd have to be very careful here.

As regards the comparative cost of 4790k vs 6700k: The real difference is going to be in the motherboard chipset. A 6700k basically means Z170 (or Z270), where a 4790k needs a Z87 or Z97 motherboard. As always, the features of these respective boards is what drives cost, and what may be the biggest feature difference is M.2/NVMe support. This brings huge performance gains in terms of storage speed. Z87 doesn't support this, therefore you should be able to get a much better price on a Z87 setup than any of the other three. I'd expect to pay more for Z97, Z170, or Z270 because of this one factor. (It's worth noting that many boards prior to NVMe support like Z87 or even much older can still be fitted with much faster storage than a SATA SSD - but that's a different subject).

I'm also pretty sure that a 6700k setup will outperform a 4790k...in fact, I have examples of both sitting not two feet from me. The 4790k is overclocked to 4600 at the moment, but barely squeaks past the 6700k, which isn't even overclocked at all. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the 6700k will pull ahead by quite a margin once I ever get around to properly overclocking it. According to siliconlottery.com, 68% of the 6700ks will hit at least 4700, and that means a 17.5% increase over stock. The 4790k is already pretty much at his limit, but the 6700k has room to grow yet.

So, there's little way I could recommend anyone pay the same for a 4790k setup as for a 6700k. The 4790k choice would obviously be about budget/cost, where (if budget permits, as I said above) the 6700k would be a step up - and cost more (and I think this is still true even if the 4790k was a Z97 v Z87...but it does become a tighter contest). Sheer performance is a factor, but even if you lay that aside, newer stuff costs more as a rule.

If budget is super tight, and re-using DDR3 memory is considered a factor, I'd say save the extra cost and go with a 4790k/Z87 setup that can use the DDR3 RAM. TBH, though, I have to say that a better idea than re-using the RAM would be to sell the older setup as a whole, and (even if you save by staying within Z87) get a setup that includes faster memory. For example, I have two Z87 boards here ATM; both running DDR3-1866 (the manual for one says it will go DDR3-3000, but I haven't tested that).

Last edited by kksnowbear; 07/04/20 01:27 PM.
#4528649 - 07/04/20 01:26 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Thanks kk and orby for the continuing information and advice. When I do start the next build I am thinking of going with the ASUS ROG Maximus XI Hero Z390 mobo with the Core i9-9900K Coffee Lake 8-Core CPU, or is that overkill? I can get the pair right now for $900 or a bit less which seem like a lot of power, speed, and features for the money.

.

#4528651 - 07/04/20 01:37 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Lou, it's all about budget at some point. The setup you mentioned seems great...but at $900 without even including a GPU? Wow.

As I've said many times - and I typically rely on objective, empirical data from reputable sources - I think you can get the vast majority of performance for much less cost. Those components are easily 2-3x the cost (or more?) of the type setups I'm thinking of, and I just don't believe the available data shows that they'll provide a level of performance in proportion to the cost.

I could be wrong, though, and I may do some looking into it here directly, just to have some specific, relevant data to consider.

#4528655 - 07/04/20 01:45 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Sorry kk, my bad. I did not mean I would be buying these parts right now but possibly at some point in the future when I do the build, at which point the prices would likely be half of what they are now. That being said, I would certainly appreciate your input on a mobo/cpu combo that would provide similar performance and features for considerably less. I am all about saving money, as well you know. smile2

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#4528664 - 07/04/20 02:18 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Three systems, all with 1080Ti GPUs:

LINK
6700k; 36,000+ results (benchmarks up to around 24,000; Highest=24694)

LINK
4790k; 25,000+ results (benchmarks up to around 23,000; Highest=23294)

LINK
9900k; 15,000+results (benchmarks up to around 29,000; Highest=29976)

That's tens of thousands of results - approaching 100,000. These are actual system benchmarks. Yes, I know they are "synthetic", but we're just comparing systems to one another using the same measurement - this isn't intended to show how any/all of them would do with any particular, specific task. So the synthetics are just fine - in fact, they're widely recognized and cited by testers throughout the industry. 3dMark has become such a standard that UL actually bought it. Doesn't get much more standardized or reliable, except maybe ISO or some such.

What this shows - conclusively, I should hope - is that there is a grossly disproportinate premium paid for the newest hardware, and the performance you get is nowhere near the scale of the increased price you pay.

Comparing all three systems combined with the same GPU, the performance improvement of a 9900k over a 6700k is less than 21%. It's about 26% over a 4790k.

The components that make up the difference - that is, motherboard, RAM and CPU - could be acquired for less than half the $900 figure cited above. Probably closer to one third ($300), depending on a number of factors.

So, 200-300% the cost for 21% performance improvement? Maybe for some, and good for them if so. Not for me, I can tell you that biggrin

#4528666 - 07/04/20 02:33 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Lou - no worries, of course. Just discussion, as always smile And yes, if one intends to do the retail option, you'd be much better off to wait. Prices drop over time, and with sales, etc, it's not unheard of to find stuff (new) at half the cost. The trick with most retail places (I include online sources in 'retail' BTW) is catching it at the lowest price they offer, but not waiting for it to drop so long that they stop carrying it altogether.

This can be difficult, because a 'good' retail operation will stop carrying stuff once the price drops low enough that the margin isn't worth the overhead. And they usually want to get out from under it, just before that happens.

So, prices will drop, sales will help. Half the price? Possible, but tricky. Less still? Not likely, IMHO. The 9900K launched in October 2018 at around $500 or so. Almost two years ago, and the 10-series are already here...but the 9900k isn't close to half off yet, still going for $400+.

#4528667 - 07/04/20 02:34 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Great info to have, thanks again kk. Just a quick look at those numbers it would appear that right now the 6700K is giving the most bang for your buck in terms of a budget build, which is pretty much what you've already said. smile2

.

#4528670 - 07/04/20 02:49 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Lou - yes, the 6- and 7th gen setups are good options lately. Just did a couple of them, as a matter of fact, in the past few weeks. Good performers, overclockable with the right hardware, and upgradeable later to any of the (currently over-priced biggrin ) GPUs.

That said, if someone were to come to me right now, and wanted to get comparable performance for the lowest possible price (while not ruling out performance storage options, or future GPU upgrades), I'd say you have to consider the high-end 4th- and 5th gen stuff. The reason I say this is that newer stuff (6th/7th gen) is just going to generally be priced higher, because it's...well, newer biggrin It also has NVMe support, and can support CPUs that will outperform the 4th/5th gen.

However, just as with the new retail stuff, the performance margin isn't that different, and because of the other differences (NVMe support, CPU support, and 'new factor') you can save a considerable amount by going to a 4th/5th gen arrangement.

So, if someone were real strapped for budget, and especially coming from an older 2nd-gen setup, I'd encourage running the numbers to see how much the 4th/5th gen could save, and compare that to the performance gain of 6th/7th. Another "90% the performance for 75% the cost" proposition, maybe?**

Kinda like used cars: You might know that a 2013 is better overall than a 2009, but your budget might be such that the performance you can get from the extra cost isn't worth it. Every situation will be different. Me, I'm a lot like you: I think the older CPUs/setups still hold their own just fine even with modern games, and have a lot to offer especially looking at costs.

** (EDIT: In the examples I cited above, the 4790k was 95.8% the performance of the 6700k, for example)

Last edited by kksnowbear; 07/04/20 02:59 PM.
#4528681 - 07/04/20 03:55 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Without looking at benchmarks, Real world differences in WOFF Gameplay between a 9700k and a 6700k ( not oc'd) is astronomical. Night and Day. This is from personal experience of owning both and playing WOFF extensively on both.

The difference is even greater when you overlook both. Again from personal experience.

If you're looking for an immediate fix for buying the 1080 ti. I'd go with a 6700k and z170 motherboard like I mentioned above. It's a big performance mismatch to combine a 9900k with a 1080 ti. You'll need the 20 series nvidia gpu. Alternatively, you can also go for a cheaper setup with an AMD 3800 or 3600 which is also a good choice to pair with a 1080 ti. But you will need to buy ddr4 RAM.

Last edited by orbyxP; 07/04/20 04:01 PM.
#4528685 - 07/04/20 04:21 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Naturally, you'd prefer to dismiss the benchmarks - because they don't agree with your opinion. Still, the facts are what they are: 75,000+ examples of how these systems compare. Objective, empirical data from a widely-respected and reliable source.

And it's absolutely inaccurate to say the 9900k is a "big performance mismatch" with a 1080Ti. The 1080Ti is better than a 2070 Super (I own and have tested both), and approaches performance of a 2080 in many instances. That leaves a 2080 Super and a 2080Ti as better. How can it be mismatched when the majority of the 20-series cards can't touch the 1080Ti? To say "You'll need a 20-series" is patently misleading; only the very upper end of the 20 series can outperform a 1080Ti.

#4528701 - 07/04/20 05:55 PM Re: OT: Selling 1080Ti FE [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Incidentally, back to the subject at hand: I decided to lower the asking price for the card by $55. Now asking $520. Happy Fourth of July Sale, if you will smile


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