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#4527658 - 06/27/20 05:17 AM Re: When does a fighter use top speed? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4


and how do you know all that was any help : they never showed the Early warning readings. all we got is this footage and the pilot acount, plus in the audio one wingman was shot..so he may not even have been the target on lock besides being tracked. Considering how many tornados were hit i doubt all that manouver would help. plus that is early 90s with 80s hardware....that #%&*$# doesnt stick today.

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#4527660 - 06/27/20 05:52 AM Re: When does a fighter use top speed? [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Originally Posted by Blade_RJ

and how do you know all that was any help : they never showed the Early warning readings. all we got is this footage and the pilot acount, plus in the audio one wingman was shot..so he may not even have been the target on lock besides being tracked. Considering how many tornados were hit i doubt all that manouver would help.


Of the 3 Tornados lost to SAMs in the 1991 Gulf War, two were on the low level airfield strikes in the first couple of nights (where vertical proximity to the launcher and relatively low energy state at low level would have shortened available reaction and maneuver time). Once the Coalition switched medium/high altitude attacks, only one more Tornado was lost to SAMs.

Additionally, the Tornado is less maneuverable than the F-16, and as far as I know, no US aircraft were downed by radar-guided SAMs in the Persian Gulf War (one was shot down by a MiG-25 on the first night, and the rest of the US losses were to AAA or IR SAMs/MANPADs).

Beyond that, how do we know maneuver defeated the missiles? Because we can see it/hear it on the HUD tape. I am not sure what further evidence we would expect.

Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
plus that is early 90s with 80s hardware....that #%&*$# doesnt stick today.


Modern SAMs (such as the S-400 or Patriot) presumably have much more effective and efficient guidance hardware and software and longer-ranged missiles in most cases, so I would guess correct to a degree. However, as pointed out above, physics still apply, and, considering that on board countermeasures as well as SEAD/DEAD tactics and weapons would also evolved since the Cold War, I doubt even modern SAMs would prove reliable 1-shot, 1-kill weapons.


Last edited by Nimits; 06/27/20 05:53 AM.
#4527663 - 06/27/20 06:18 AM Re: When does a fighter use top speed? [Re: Nimits]  
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Originally Posted by Nimits
as far as I know, no US aircraft were downed by radar-guided SAMs in the Persian Gulf War (one was shot down by a MiG-25 on the first night, and the rest of the US losses were to AAA or IR SAMs/MANPADs).


An F-16 was downed by an SA-3 and another by an SA-6, and an F-14 by an SA-2, and there may well have been others among the losses attributed to unknown missiles.

#4527668 - 06/27/20 07:21 AM Re: When does a fighter use top speed? [Re: Zamzow]  
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I find it humorous there are some here who feel as if SAMs should be invincible and undefeatable.

They're an AI guided missile that only does as they are programmed. Never underestimate the human factor and their will to survive.

#4527747 - 06/28/20 02:27 AM Re: When does a fighter use top speed? [Re: Crane Hunter]  
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Originally Posted by Crane Hunter
Originally Posted by Nimits
as far as I know, no US aircraft were downed by radar-guided SAMs in the Persian Gulf War (one was shot down by a MiG-25 on the first night, and the rest of the US losses were to AAA or IR SAMs/MANPADs).


An F-16 was downed by an SA-3 and another by an SA-6, and an F-14 by an SA-2, and there may well have been others among the losses attributed to unknown missiles.


No you are absolutely right (not sure how, but had mixed those up with the Serbian shoot downs). There was also an F-15E shot down by an SA-2.

Still, the larger point stands: all things being equal, the second generation Soviet SAMs were not exceptionally dangerous to fighter-type aircraft.

#4527753 - 06/28/20 02:56 AM Re: When does a fighter use top speed? [Re: Zamzow]  
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When does a fighter use top speed?

When he want's to.


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#4527761 - 06/28/20 07:00 AM Re: When does a fighter use top speed? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Missiles don't have as much fuel or capability for sustained thrust as a jet.

Meteor.

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