#4527381 - 06/25/20 03:32 PM
Re: When does a fighter use top speed?
[Re: Zamzow]
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Mr_Blastman
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When they gotta gtf outta dodge!
Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 06/25/20 03:33 PM.
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#4527383 - 06/25/20 03:43 PM
Re: When does a fighter use top speed?
[Re: NoFlyBoy]
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Vaderini
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To outrun a SAM or a AA missile? This is not possible in real-life, the speed of a SAM is between mach 3 and 6, and their targeting logic has been extremely good since the 1960's.
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#4527397 - 06/25/20 04:45 PM
Re: When does a fighter use top speed?
[Re: Zamzow]
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Mr_Blastman
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You can't "outrun" a SAM on the level, but you can drag them out with altitude. Darned gravity really sucks for solid fuel motors... Frankly, though, there's better ways to dodge a SAM than playing that game.
AA missiles, on the other hand, can be defeated with a combination of notching, speed, and a climbing, opposing spiral. Once their engines run out of fuel, it becomes a game of bleeding off their energy by forcing them into high AoA swings.
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#4527419 - 06/25/20 05:59 PM
Re: When does a fighter use top speed?
[Re: Zamzow]
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Vaderini
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You can't "outrun" a SAM on the level, but you can drag them out with altitude. Darned gravity really sucks for solid fuel motors... Frankly, though, there's better ways to dodge a SAM than playing that game.
AA missiles, on the other hand, can be defeated with a combination of notching, speed, and a climbing, opposing spiral. Once their engines run out of fuel, it becomes a game of bleeding off their energy by forcing them into high AoA swings. Real-life isn't a videogame. A SAM never gets fired so far on the limit of its range that 'dragging them out with altitude' is relevant, and I can't recall a single case that a A-A missile has been evaded by skill since the Vietnam War.
Last edited by Vaderini; 06/25/20 06:00 PM.
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#4527440 - 06/25/20 07:23 PM
Re: When does a fighter use top speed?
[Re: PanzerMeyer]
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Vaderini
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Ah Youtube, the source of good information! Either that F-16 pilot had god-like skills or those Iraqi SAM battery operators were utterly incompetent. Or they fired in the wrong mode (easily done), fired outside of missile parameters, only had the targeting radar online (which was certainly the case around Baghdad) , had a technical malfunction (probable, since the Iraqi missiles were years overdue for their scheduled maintenance) had the wrong missiles in the launcher, had the missiles spooled up for too long or too short, etc, etc...
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#4527447 - 06/25/20 07:45 PM
Re: When does a fighter use top speed?
[Re: Zamzow]
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Arthonon
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I am not sure that there has been enough combat to really know how often a fighter could avoid a SAM or A-A missile in actual combat conditions. I think that the few exchanges we've seen in the past few decades have had mitigating circumstances, where things were small scale and/or one side had a significant advantage in capability over the other. Sure, if fired under optimum conditions, it's unlikely a fighter could avoid it, but in combat, especially large scale combat, combatants are not always going to wait for optimum conditions.
If an opponent fires a missile at an enemy aircraft under full combat conditions, I think it's possible that it could be at extreme range and the fighter could use its speed to drag the missile out until it runs out of fuel. The Su-22 in Syria spoofed an AIM-9X fired from a Super Hornet, so avoiding a modern missile is certainly possible.
As a more direct answer to the original question, a fighter might extend in max speed to avoid getting into, or staying within, the parameters of an enemy aircraft's weapons to begin with so a missile is never fired.
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#4527451 - 06/25/20 07:49 PM
Re: When does a fighter use top speed?
[Re: Vaderini]
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Mr_Blastman
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You can't "outrun" a SAM on the level, but you can drag them out with altitude. Darned gravity really sucks for solid fuel motors... Frankly, though, there's better ways to dodge a SAM than playing that game.
AA missiles, on the other hand, can be defeated with a combination of notching, speed, and a climbing, opposing spiral. Once their engines run out of fuel, it becomes a game of bleeding off their energy by forcing them into high AoA swings. Real-life isn't a videogame. A SAM never gets fired so far on the limit of its range that 'dragging them out with altitude' is relevant, and I can't recall a single case that a A-A missile has been evaded by skill since the Vietnam War. Videogame or not, the logic and science still applies. p = m*v a = Δv/Δt They just don't go away, those pesky physics. Missiles don't have as much fuel or capability for sustained thrust as a jet. Or are you suggesting a real life pilot would stare at his chirping RWR and decide that...
Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 06/25/20 07:50 PM.
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#4527520 - 06/26/20 03:08 AM
Re: When does a fighter use top speed?
[Re: Vaderini]
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Nimits
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Real-life isn't a videogame. A SAM never gets fired so far on the limit of its range that 'dragging them out with altitude' is relevant
From the Vietnam War on, SAMs, especially the second generation Soviet SAMs (SA-2/3/6/8) have routinely been defeated by maneuver, countermeasures, or a both. For example, North Vietnam fired 240+ SA-2s in Linbacker II, and only downed 17 aircraft for their trouble. While onboard countermeasures and SEAD sorties had a major part in that, there were kinetic defeats of the SA-2s as well. Similar results have where achieved in other engagements between western air forces and Soviet-types SAMS throughout the 70s-90s. Or they fired in the wrong mode (easily done), fired outside of missile parameters, only had the targeting radar online (which was certainly the case around Baghdad), had a technical malfunction (probable, since the Iraqi missiles were years overdue for their scheduled maintenance) had the wrong missiles in the launcher, had the missiles spooled up for too long or too short, etc, etc... Or they were firing SA-2s/S-75s, which historically had only marginal success against fighter-type aircraft when the pilot had some sort of warning and was able to maneuver. As an an side, I know the Iraqis resorted to firing SAMs ballistic on occasion during the Gulf War, especially after we massacred their front line air defense systems early on, but I do not think that was the case in this instance (the pilot was getting RWR indications of an SA-2, and, from the HUD video, they seemed to be guiding much closer than a ballistic shot would likely have allowed).
Last edited by Nimits; 06/26/20 03:29 AM.
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#4527533 - 06/26/20 05:48 AM
Re: When does a fighter use top speed?
[Re: Lieste]
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Nimits
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Do we know they *actually* expended 240+ SAMS? Yes. As of 2001, North Vietnam admits to firing 239 missiles (primarily at the B-52s) during the battle. Given that they should have had on hand 300-400 missiles in the Hanoi area at the start of Linebacker II, and as it was quite obvious at the end of the battle that North Vietnam either had or was about to be run out of missiles, it seems they actually would have expended more than that. Marshall Michel (from which the preceding is cited) speculates that perhaps the North Vietnamese were not counting malfunctioning missiles in their number expended. The Osprey book on the SA-2 suggest 266 missiles were fired during Linebacker II (though I am unsure of its source). All in all, I think 240+ is a reasonable estimate.
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#4527633 - 06/26/20 11:45 PM
Re: When does a fighter use top speed?
[Re: Zamzow]
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Dart
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The Federal Law covering Movie Quotes compel me to answer the question with a paraphrase: "When they are inverted."
The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events. More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.comFrom Laser: "The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
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Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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