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#4522761 - 05/28/20 02:32 PM GAO and the F-35  
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Nixer Offline
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Big report and lots of GovSpeak.

Busy with school work will read much of it later.

One quote:

Quote
while the F-35 program has increased the production rate and negotiated lower aircraft prices, it is not meeting manufacturing leading practices identified by GAO. Specifically, only about 3,000 of the over 10,000 airframe contractor's manufacturing key processes meet predefined design standards for ensuring product quality. Also, the fielded aircraft, over 500 so far, do not meet the program's reliability and maintainability goals.


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#4522762 - 05/28/20 02:39 PM Re: GAO and the F-35 [Re: Nixer]  
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PanzerMeyer Online centaurian
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Being at war makes all the difference with creating incentive. During WW 2 the US government and armament manufacturers HAD to get it right in order to achieve victory. During peace time though? The bureaucrats and suits take over and make sure everyone gets their pockets filled nicely.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 05/28/20 02:42 PM.

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#4522772 - 05/28/20 03:31 PM Re: GAO and the F-35 [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Being at war makes all the difference with creating incentive. During WW 2 the US government and armament manufacturers HAD to get it right in order to achieve victory. During peace time though? The bureaucrats and suits take over and make sure everyone gets their pockets filled nicely.



And I'm certain there were many quality defects etc. that got through, some resulted in dead men and it was never known about or if known about it was not mentioned. It was just a fact of war.


I wish the GAO looked as deeply into where the real waste is in the federal government: the Welfare State.


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#4522788 - 05/28/20 04:36 PM Re: GAO and the F-35 [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Being at war makes all the difference with creating incentive. During WW 2 the US government and armament manufacturers HAD to get it right in order to achieve victory. During peace time though? The bureaucrats and suits take over and make sure everyone gets their pockets filled nicely.


The flip side of that is when you are facing an existential threat, the standard often times becomes 'good enough' in the interest of getting enough quantity of something that can be used to fight with.

Of course, we have had a number of wars that did not rise to the widely held perception of being an existential threat. I'd say you get more of the gravy being spread around during those times.

#4522796 - 05/28/20 05:01 PM Re: GAO and the F-35 [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Being at war makes all the difference with creating incentive.

I disagree. The British in the World Wars and the Germans in WWII definitely had an incentive, but widespread bureaucracy and 'the suits' still occurred with massive loss of life as a result. Ironically, it was the LACK of an industrial military complex in the US and the USSR that made their industrial military complexes work so well during the war. There was no bureaucracy in place to be bureaucratic. There were no factories in place that needed to be kept in business for the sake of being in business. There were no shareholders and profit margins to protect, since those shareholders were all to glad that they could sell something to someone, instead of going out of business because the civilian market collapsed.

As soon as an industry exists just to exist, it starts going wrong

#4522802 - 05/28/20 05:18 PM Re: GAO and the F-35 [Re: Vaderini]  
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Originally Posted by Vaderini
There were no factories in place that needed to be kept in business for the sake of being in business. There were no shareholders and profit margins to protect, since those shareholders were all to glad that they could sell something to someone, instead of going out of business because the civilian market collapsed.




The USSR would not have had all of this pre-1941 anyway due to its ideology.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 05/28/20 05:19 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4522833 - 05/28/20 08:01 PM Re: GAO and the F-35 [Re: Nixer]  
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Vaderini Offline
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The USSR wasn't industrialized pre-war because of it's ideology, but because of it's demographics. The vast majority of the population was illiterate -let alone educated-, destroying any chance of development and innovation. The people lived rural and decentralized, making any large industry nigh impossible and without a large supply of intermediate goods, any advanced construction is rendered impossible (the same reason why Detroit and only Detroit could become Motor City). There is a reason why the attempts of the czars to industrialise all horribly failed.

On the contrary, industrialization was a key aspect of the 5-year plans and without communism, industrialized world wonders like the Dniepr hydroelectric dam would have never been built and the people never would've gotten access to electrical power. Free schools for everyone meant that iliteracy dropped to basically 0%, an educated middle class started appearing, and that development started happening. A planned economy by a centralized state caused factories to become viable.

I even dare to say that without its ideology, the Soviet Union wouldn't even have been able to field its own mechanized forces prior to 1941.

#4522845 - 05/28/20 09:06 PM Re: GAO and the F-35 [Re: Vaderini]  
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bolox Offline
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I broadly agree with your characterisation of USSR and USA. However I would suggest that the UK position was more complicated.

In many ways the wartime economy was 'nationalised' to almost the extent of the USSR (while retaining some 'capitalistic' elements)- eg food rationing under Woolton, and to a large extent aircraft production- particularly the shadow factory scheme, with the government building factories, and then appointing 'industrial experts' to run them.
Then there was Beaverbrook, the classic example being spitfire production dispersion, with established factory spaces being requisitioned an often brutal manner (not quite at the point of a gun but often little short of it- and owners/shareholders be dammed).

Sure there were many examples of commitees being inefficient (eg tank design)- but even that managed to finally produce something 'half decent' in the Comet.


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