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#4519480 - 05/04/20 06:03 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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The Sherman was also one of the very few tanks to fight in every theater of war. It was in Western Europe, Russia, North Africa, Italy, and all over the Pacific.It was able to handle all sorts of climates and ground conditions. Really, for the Allies, it was kind of the perfect tank. One vehicle that could be mass produced and exported all over the world... and work with few, if any, maintenance issues when it got there.

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#4519492 - 05/04/20 07:05 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
Ton of interesting World War II videos on that Mark Felton YT channel. Thank you Nixer.


You are welcome. I watched about 20 yesterday.

So, German Tanks vs Shermans.

Yes, the Firefly was a MkIV, Panther and Tiger killer. I believe that the Brits only had like one per troop?

Even ignoring Wittman's vicious romp at Villiers Bocage, in the big armored battles around Caen the Sherman losses were horrifying.

The Allies "aluminum overcast" was far more a danger to German armor than hordes of allied shermans.

Another topical Felton video:




"There's a sucker born every minute."
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#4519493 - 05/04/20 07:09 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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Allied aircraft did little vs tanks and other armour. They were effective vs softskins and very light armour though.

Allied artillery and operational attrition were far more significant. (OA is breakdowns and terrain casualties or lack or parts or fuel to recover all vehicles because of unavailability or loss of and on softskins).

#4519495 - 05/04/20 07:09 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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Originally Posted by Nixer


The Allies "aluminum overcast" was far more a danger to German armor than hordes of allied shermans.





So was the overwhelming Allied naval shore bombardment during the early phases of Normandy.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4519496 - 05/04/20 07:12 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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"The Sherman was also one of the very few tanks to fight in every theater of war. "

Transportability was one the biggest assets of the M4 series. The U.S had to build tanks that could be loaded aboard ships and carried to the battlefield. The Germans didn't have to worry about that. For the U.S. Army's needs, the Sherman was really just about the perfect tank.
As far as the Tiger is concerned, American tank units didn't come up against them very much. The British Army, unfortunately, did. The section of Normandy in which the U.S. was advancing was not good country for Tigers. The British sector, farther north, was, however. Flatter, wide open fields with no hedgerows. That's where that German Tigers had a field day against British tank units.
It isn't fair, really, to match the Sherman up against the Tiger and say that the Sherman was an inferior vehicle. Read up on the tank battles the occurred in the Lorraine region of France in September of 1944. Shermans against Panthers, and the Panthers got their asses thoroughly kicked.


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#4519497 - 05/04/20 07:13 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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I have been playing Panzer General and you can play as German, Italian, American, British, Canadian, Poles, Czech, even Ethiopia and what was then Yugoslavia and the more you advance in the war from 1939 on, the more prestige you earn and it opens up access to newer better tank.

One of the British tank that I was able to get later was the Crocodile. I didn't know it was a flamethrower until the first time I used it against a Tiger II and it had no effect.


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#4519511 - 05/04/20 07:57 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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Now here's Felton again, this time showing how after Normandy and the continuing meat grinder of the eastern front, the attrition of Germany's experienced tankers was really coming into play.

Arracourt in September 1944:




"There's a sucker born every minute."
Phineas Taylor Barnum

#4519519 - 05/04/20 08:22 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
I have been playing Panzer General and you can play as German, Italian, American, British, Canadian, Poles, Czech, even Ethiopia and what was then Yugoslavia and the more you advance in the war from 1939 on, the more prestige you earn and it opens up access to newer better tank.

One of the British tank that I was able to get later was the Crocodile. I didn't know it was a flamethrower until the first time I used it against a Tiger II and it had no effect.


A nice bit of British Patriotism and talk of the effectiveness of the Crocodile


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpIoqyjWvzI

and a tale of ATGs in the dessert


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPJRd_XiDGg


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#4519532 - 05/04/20 09:26 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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Felton is great, another good one is The History Guy https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4sEmXUuWIFlxRIFBRV6VXQ


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
#4519543 - 05/04/20 10:01 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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The History Guy is good,I just find he speaks too fast or not clearly enough at times.


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#4519994 - 05/07/20 01:44 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
"The Sherman was also one of the very few tanks to fight in every theater of war. "

Transportability was one the biggest assets of the M4 series. The U.S had to build tanks that could be loaded aboard ships and carried to the battlefield. The Germans didn't have to worry about that. For the U.S. Army's needs, the Sherman was really just about the perfect tank.
As far as the Tiger is concerned, American tank units didn't come up against them very much. The British Army, unfortunately, did. The section of Normandy in which the U.S. was advancing was not good country for Tigers. The British sector, farther north, was, however. Flatter, wide open fields with no hedgerows. That's where that German Tigers had a field day against British tank units.
It isn't fair, really, to match the Sherman up against the Tiger and say that the Sherman was an inferior vehicle. Read up on the tank battles the occurred in the Lorraine region of France in September of 1944. Shermans against Panthers, and the Panthers got their asses thoroughly kicked.


This I fully agree with. The other aspect affecting US tank design was the recognition that as force that was to be attacking, in strategic terms, there was an assumption that the Germans would always blow bridges over water-obstacles. This severely limited the overall weight, as it was a given that US tanks would have to use pontoon or Bailey Bridges. The Germans were under no such limitation from '42 onwards, allowing them to make heavier vehicles with better armour protection, larger size and turret-rings, and therefore heavier weapons.

In other words, the Sherman was optimised for transport to distant theatres, and for repair without returning it to the USA; and also to be able to continue advances despite the destruction of permament bridges.
As such, it was an excellent design.

#4520014 - 05/07/20 03:02 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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It also used a regular gasoline engine making logistics way easier. It was also very survivable with only around a 2% KIA and usually only 1 dead crew member when a tank was destroyed. That was actually pretty good and I think only the Churchill was more survivable than the Sherman.
That said, it was very easy for German armor and ATs to knock them out and I'm glad I don't have to fight in one.

#4520016 - 05/07/20 03:16 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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A radial engine is not your 'regular' gasoline type engine... lol!

#4520020 - 05/07/20 03:34 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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Radial petrol engines were only one type used, they also had options for diesel engines and a double bank of truck engines.

#4520024 - 05/07/20 03:52 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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I can be all day watching those WW2 YouTube videos. Better than anything on TV.


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#4520091 - 05/08/20 01:29 AM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
I can be all day watching those WW2 YouTube videos. Better than anything on TV.


Youtube has been better than TV for a long time now. It's like it doesn't know how to die despite being beaten to a bloody mashed up pulp by so many other platforms. If you do insist on being bored sh/tless though, all the major news channel have a YT channel as well. One of the best things is that nearly all of the good shows that were on TV back in the day are also stashed away on YT if you want s nostalgia trip.

As for guys like Felton, Drachnifel and tons of others that cover from the caveman era to current, they have really upped the game regards historical based content. I've been on a cold war kick for a bit now regards content and YT has been a dream for finding specific stuff like certain planes, vehicles, tactics, strategies, weapons, beliefs, politics and everything in between.

With so much content you can really nail down a great picture by using so many different sources instead of the old back in day History Channel stuff like - ' Tiger tank, big gun, much scare, kills all'


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#4520092 - 05/08/20 01:32 AM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Alicatt]  
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Originally Posted by Alicatt


A nice bit of British Patriotism and talk of the effectiveness of the Crocodile


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpIoqyjWvzI

and a tale of ATGs in the dessert


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPJRd_XiDGg


Lindybeige is awesome, love his content.


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#4520599 - 05/12/20 04:22 AM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
The Sherman was WWII's best tank.


LOL


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#4520697 - 05/13/20 01:51 AM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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And one point nobody has really mentioned is that the Sherman was designed as an infantry support tank and was never intended to fight other tanks.

The US doctrine at the time was to use the M4 to support the infantry and the tank destroyers to fight enemy tanks.

There was even some pushback to the notion of equipping the M4 with the 76mm gun because it was felt US crews would go looking for enemy tanks which was not what they were supposed to be doing.


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#4520715 - 05/13/20 09:39 AM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: W-Molders]  
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Originally Posted by W-Molders
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
The Sherman was WWII's best tank.


LOL



Thank you for your informed and well thought out reply.


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
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