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#4519315 - 05/03/20 09:08 PM Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans  
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Living with the Trees

Never had heard of this little engagement before.



This Felton guy does some interesting videos.


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#4519323 - 05/03/20 10:13 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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The overwhelming numerical and air superiority of the US and U.K. on the Western front more than made up for the woefully inadequate Sherman! The Firefly and Easy Eight variants fared much better though going toe to toe against German armor.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 05/03/20 10:13 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4519326 - 05/03/20 10:18 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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Well... when you surrender a couple of augmented tank companies to two Panthers and a guy with a pistol...


edit: Oh and another one I had never heard of:




This Felton guy is a goldmine of obscure cool WWII info.

Last edited by Nixer; 05/03/20 10:19 PM.

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#4519333 - 05/03/20 11:56 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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He does do some really cool stuff. There is one he does on Goerings capture that is really interesting.


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#4519336 - 05/04/20 12:08 AM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
The overwhelming numerical and air superiority of the US and U.K. on the Western front more than made up for the woefully inadequate Sherman! The Firefly and Easy Eight variants fared much better though going toe to toe against German armor.


The Sherman wasn't terrible, its just that tank designs that had a similarly excellent degree of automotive performance yet had enough guns and armor to overmatch the heavier German tanks, didn't exist until at least 10 years after the war.

#4519342 - 05/04/20 02:26 AM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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The Sherman was WWII's best tank.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4519352 - 05/04/20 04:24 AM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
The Sherman was WWII's best tank.



If we are talking about super mass produced tanks that had a huge impact on the outcome of the war then the T-34 is absolutely on equal terms to the Sherman.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4519368 - 05/04/20 08:29 AM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Crane Hunter]  
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Originally Posted by Crane Hunter
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
The overwhelming numerical and air superiority of the US and U.K. on the Western front more than made up for the woefully inadequate Sherman! The Firefly and Easy Eight variants fared much better though going toe to toe against German armor.


The Sherman wasn't terrible, its just that tank designs that had a similarly excellent degree of automotive performance yet had enough guns and armor to overmatch the heavier German tanks, didn't exist until at least 10 years after the war.

The Firefly's QF17pdr gun had better range and penetration than the much vaunted 88/36 on the Tiger I especially using the APDS round which were available during the Normandy campaign.

Though the 88/43 on the Tiger II was more powerful than the QF17, the bore on the 88/43 was the same size as the earlier 88/36, the cartridge was around 284mm longer.

A bit of WW2 propaganda film "A Date With a Tank" about the 17pdr on this link: https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/2372

Originally Posted by IWM
Production of the British 17-pounder. AT gun, presented as a race against first the probability and then the certainty of the development of a new German Tank (the Tiger) which existing 2 and 6-pounders. will not be able to match.


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#4519375 - 05/04/20 10:42 AM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
The Sherman was WWII's best tank.



If we are talking about super mass produced tanks that had a huge impact on the outcome of the war then the T-34 is absolutely on equal terms to the Sherman.



In terms of numbers yes, in terms of reliability and crew comfort/ergonomics it doesn't quite compare to the Sherman.

It's much vaunted "sloped armor" (which wasn't a T34 innovation as much as the History Channel would claim) was not much, if any, more effective than contemporaries, it's only real asset beyond its numbers was the 85mm gun on later variants.

If I were equipping a WWII army with only one tank I'd choose the Sherman.


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#4519380 - 05/04/20 11:10 AM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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17Pdr was accurate with APCBC, but lacks consistency with APDS due to the early state of sabot design and inconsistent separation issues. It also had a poor HE shell compared to 76mm, and particularly to 75mm or 105mm shermans

Thus while it had excellent penetration out to extended ranges it couldn't make as much advantage of that because of the limitation of accuracy.
The 17pdr was also a bit much for the Sherman, compromising the ergonomics a fair bit after cramming the gun and larger ammunition in.

The triad of 75mm, 76mm and 105mm used by the US forces was a better mix (especially since almost all use was against light armour or in infantry support).

#4519391 - 05/04/20 12:14 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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Let's not forget, no matter how 'good' a tank is supposed to be, there is also the matter of it's crew, and how proficient they are coupled with morale...

#4519396 - 05/04/20 12:38 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
The Sherman was WWII's best tank.


Oddball disagrees thumbsup "All the tanks we come up against are bigger & better then ours"



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#4519417 - 05/04/20 02:25 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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FTs, H35/H39s, PzII, PzIII, PzIVH? None of those are bigger and better than the Sherman.

Sure the few Panthers, Tigers and Tiger B are bigger, some of the PzJg are tough to penetrate from the front... but they are not common - Panther is seen fairly often, but there are almost no Tigers and they are concentrated into a few points, so you either meet lots or none at all. And it is certainly a stretch to call a JgPz38 or a StuGIII 'better' than a Sherman.

Relatively few US tanks fought enemy tanks, and infrequently, especially against larger concentrations. Most were used for infantry support and against light armour used in penny packets.

#4519418 - 05/04/20 02:29 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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Lieste knows his stuff. He's not one of those who watched "Fury" and thought it was an accurate depiction of WW 2 armored combat. biggrin


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4519427 - 05/04/20 03:32 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Lieste]  
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Originally Posted by Lieste
FTs, H35/H39s, PzII, PzIII, PzIVH? None of those are bigger and better than the Sherman.


FT ? Do you mean B1 ?

I mean, there is 25 years between the Renault FT and the M4 Sherman, so thankfully Sherman is better.

#4519428 - 05/04/20 03:34 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Lieste knows his stuff. He's not one of those who watched "Fury" and thought it was an accurate depiction of WW 2 armored combat. biggrin

Ask Michael Wittmann if the Sherman was any good wink


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#4519437 - 05/04/20 04:15 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Alicatt]  
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Originally Posted by Alicatt

Ask Michael Wittmann if the Sherman was any good wink



Especially the Firefly variant. Touche'!

To be fair though, he was greatly outnumbered.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 05/04/20 04:15 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4519439 - 05/04/20 04:21 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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Despite it's reputation and being derisively dubbed 'Ronson' or 'Tommy Cooker' the Sherman had the highest ration of crew survivability I believe, due to sprung large hatches. Unlike the Churchill which had tiny egress points especially for a man of the size of my wife's father! Luckily he didn't have the need to get out of one in a hurry.
Fortunately the Hun big Cats as mentioned were few and far between, and unservicable more often than not!
I gather the 'Firefly' Crews would camouflage the tell-tale length of the 17pdr as it would be a primary target.



#4519442 - 05/04/20 04:27 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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Ton of interesting World War II videos on that Mark Felton YT channel. Thank you Nixer.


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#4519456 - 05/04/20 04:48 PM Re: Two Panthers take on 21 Shermans [Re: Nixer]  
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And while popular culture always talks about the Panthers and Tigers, the historical fact is that the Panzer IVJ was much more numerous and was an extremely effective tank against the best the Allies could muster even in 1945.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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