Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
#4506196 - 02/05/20 02:13 AM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: Zamzow]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
F4UDash4 Online cool
Veteran
F4UDash4  Online Cool
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
SC
Originally Posted by Zamzow
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
NASA in its current state has very little to do with actual space exploration.


Name one unmanned mission in the past 40 years that would have made more sense manned...


That makes no sense. No one wants to send people to Pluto, Jupiter or Saturn.

Originally Posted by Zamzow
During those 40 years we've learned a lot more about space than the Apollo missions taught us - even from the ground...


Learned more about "space"?

Well we learned a good bit about various bodies in space, but the six manned landing missions to the moon collected more data specific to the moon than could have been collected in decades by dozens of unmanned missions to the moon. And it done it cheaper than the same amount of data could have been collected unmanned.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4506199 - 02/05/20 02:29 AM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
F4UDash4 Online cool
Veteran
F4UDash4  Online Cool
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
SC

[Linked Image]

Quote
Several things are immediately apparent from Figure 2. Most obvious is the sheer volume of Apollo's scientific legacy compared to the other missions illustrated. This alone goes a long way to vindicate the points made above about human versus robotic efficiency. The second point to note is that the next most productive set of missions are the lunar sample return missions Lunas 16, 20 and 24, which highlights the importance of sample return. Indeed, a large part of the reason why Apollo has resulted in many more publications than the Luna missions is due to the much larger quantity and diversity of the returned samples which, as we have seen, will always be greater in the context of human missions. The third point to note is that, despite being based on data obtained and samples collected over 40 years ago, and unlike the Luna, Lunokhod, or Surveyor publications, which have clearly levelled off, the Apollo publication rate is still rising. Indeed, it is actually rising as fast as, or faster than, the publications rate derived from the Mars Exploration Rovers, despite the fact that data derived from the latter are much more recent. No matter how far one extrapolates into the future, it is clear that the volume of scientific activity generated by the MERs, or other robotic exploration missions, will never approach that due to Apollo.

"We're still benefiting from the scientific legacy of those few soil samples brought by the Apollo mission, but we can only do this because we went to the Moon, got these samples, and came back," says Crawford. "If we sent a rover to Mars along with a return vehicle, that would enormously increase its scientific impact, but that's hasn't been implemented yet because its still incredibly expensive. If a mission goes to Mars, lands in one place, bring back half a kilogram of Mars rocks, it will be immensely valuable, but compared to Apollo, which not only visited six sites (and many hundred of sites with the help of the lunar rover) but came back with 382 kilograms of lunar material, it sort of pales in comparison."


Why Space Exploration Is a Job for Humans

Attached Files Screen shot 2012-04-02 at 3.57.12 PM-thumb-615x400-83613.png

"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4506441 - 02/06/20 05:37 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,572
Arthonon Offline
Veteran
Arthonon  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,572
California
I saw that same article and chart, but I am not sure we can really tell what that means for future space exploration. First, those are publications, and without knowing what they're writing about, some of them could be rehashing old data, revising things, etc., which isn't necessarily dependent on the original data, but more on how the data was originally analyzed. Additionally, the manned missions were a lot more complex, and of course included humans, so some of those publications could be about things that just simply don't apply to unmanned missions, like what is involved in human space flight, or the processes that resulted in the spacecraft design, and so on. Maybe they're not, maybe they're all about the Moon itself, but I can't tell.

Also, something that is mentioned in the article but I think dismissed too easily, it what's planned for the future, and how technology will improve and allow for unmanned missions to do a lot more. Also, that chart only shows what was published about two rovers, but many of the Mars missions work together, so it might make more sense to combine more of those missions together to get a better feel of the publishing rate. Additionally, we wouldn't know what we know about Mars without the unmanned missions, which will help in planning the manned missions, so those unmanned missions could potentially be added to the costs of any future manned missions.


Ken Cartwright

No single drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood.

http://www.techflyer.net

#4506455 - 02/06/20 07:43 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
F4UDash4 Online cool
Veteran
F4UDash4  Online Cool
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
SC
We should also not measure space exploration solely on the basis of scientific discoveries made. It is important for humans to move out into space and to live on other worlds on the merits of expansion of the human presence in the solar system alone.

And when we do have a permanent colony on Mars the rate of scientific discovery about that planet will explode to such an extent that many proponents of unmanned exploration will regret that they had not instead pushed for man to go there sooner as it will quickly overshadow everything learned by probes and rovers.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4506463 - 02/06/20 08:32 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,572
Arthonon Offline
Veteran
Arthonon  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,572
California
I agree that there is value in sending humans into space, for a variety of reasons. I'm a sci-fi nerd, so I love this stuff, and I think we might just differ on the process. I was more responding to the Mars Direct approach and Zubrin's take on it.

I think we need to use the Moon to practice and build proficiency in extended human operations in space and on other celestial bodies. If something goes wrong on a Mars flight, there's a much greater chance that it could result in loss of life because of the distances and time involved. Apollo is the only manned space flight we've done beyond Earth orbit, and that was a long time ago, and as mentioned was more about getting there than doing anything. I think we need to build up a capability before taking that larger step to Mars. If something catastrophic happened on the first Mars mission and the crew were lost, you'd have to wait a very long time before people would support giving it another try. Best to reduce the chances of that happening and provide the best odds of success.


Ken Cartwright

No single drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood.

http://www.techflyer.net

#4506505 - 02/07/20 12:53 AM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Ssnake Offline
Virtual Shiva Beast
Ssnake  Offline
Virtual Shiva Beast
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Germoney
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
We should also not measure space exploration solely on the basis of scientific discoveries made. It is important for humans to move out into space and to live on other worlds on the merits of expansion of the human presence in the solar system alone.

I'm not fundamentally opposed to the long-term goal but objectively spoken there is no urgency in this. The sun will last another 4 BN years which is an unfathomly long (if finite) time, which leaves resilience against large scale asteroid impact as the next big threat as the prime justification. Which could still take several million years to happen, and even then it might be more practical to detect them far out and to alter their courses subtly to prevent collision.

The reality is that terraforming is a very hard and very expensive method, with a potentially huge return on an equally huge investment, but over a time exceeding a human life span considerably. We haven't yet developed a finance market for centuries-long investments; this is a very serious impediment because states/politicians simply do not have the patience to pour huge sums into a money sinkhole from which neither the current voters will profit nor their children, or grandchildren - nor do pension funds who only want to stay invested for the duration of the average person't work life.
Admittedly, terraforming is also the only known (theoretical) method to expand the available amount of real estate. In order to make it possible we need to develop a zero-/low G space based industry as the prime motivation to invest into long-term deep space habitats. And that requires that we first discover things that can only be produced in such an environment in an economically feasible manner that it justifies the expense of building all the needed deep space infrastructure.

Someone will have to pay for all this, so you have to convince those people. Effectively you'd be selling uninhabitable rock to people who can't reach it, with the unenforceable promise that their great-great-great-great grandchildren might inherit a piece of land that is suitable for colonization by lichen. I'm a space enthusiast, but good luck with that.

#4506514 - 02/07/20 02:25 AM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
F4UDash4 Online cool
Veteran
F4UDash4  Online Cool
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
SC
Well I'm not necessarily worried about creating an offworld backup in case of disaster on earth, just that is has always been in humans fundamental nature to expand into new territory and bring human life to areas where there was none before. Now that we've occupied most of the dry surface of earth and we are in need of new territory to exploit for living purposes as well as raw materials we need to start looking to space. And it IS a good thing to have a backup in case of some earth disaster, which could come in many more forms than what you've listed. Disease, war, super volcanoes etc. could wreak havoc on earth's population.

Nor is terraforming necessary, at least not in the short term (and short term in this case would be the next 100 years or so). Underground tunnels or pressurized habitats made for local raw materials on mars would suffice for a long, long time.

As for financing, I think Musk is on the right track. I think most of us would be surprised at just how many people would be willing to sell everything they have on earth to invest the proceeds ($100k, $200k etc) and move to Mars.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4506543 - 02/07/20 08:23 AM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Ssnake Offline
Virtual Shiva Beast
Ssnake  Offline
Virtual Shiva Beast
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Germoney
I disagree with you on several points. For one, I believe that the population growth will stop sooner than most people believe, and the human population on Earth will contract afterwards faster than most believe. This is not necessarily a bad thing if it resuces pressure on our ecosphere while keeping a high standard of living for the individual, but I think that the global economy will hit a severe global recession of unprecedented magnitude and duration in the second half of this century (see "Empty Planet" for further reference).
That we're running out of raw materials is another myth. Hydrocarbons may be depleting but I think that we'll have surplus energy in the future to create synthetic fuels from electrolyte hydrogen and atmospheric or sequestered CO2 storage for our air transportation needs where the high energy density of kerosene appears irreplacable.
The historical analogy with the settlement of The West falls flat because people were moving into inhabitable and arable land inside the best ecosphere that we have (and will have for centuries to come).

Elon Musk's proposal is, frankly, to export pensioners to let them die on Mars. They might create bigger habitats there for more pensioners to die there until some young cave dwellers might be willing to go there and spend the rest of their lives in artificial Mars caves. But I just don't see this to become "a thing" and in any case supporting people in artificial caves over a distance 35...100 million miles is unsustainable. Sooner or later the pool of Mars enthusiasts will be exploited, at which point the whole settlement is doomed to die. It might take a hundred years, but even if the problem of self-sustaining artificial ecosystems is being solved they will still be be "complex simple" ecosystems with next to no reserves to compensate for more than small disturbances.

#4506557 - 02/07/20 01:23 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: Ssnake]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,472
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,472
Miami, FL USA
Originally Posted by Ssnake
For one, I believe that the population growth will stop sooner than most people believe, and the human population on Earth will contract afterwards faster than most believe..



The current data doesn't back this assertion up in any way. While the population growth rate for Western and other first world countries has indeed leveled off or even decreased, the population growth rate for almost all developing and third world countries is still very high by comparison. Unless the are some unforeseen major cultural shifts that occur, the high population growth in the developing world will not be changing for a long time...if ever.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4506558 - 02/07/20 02:03 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Ssnake Offline
Virtual Shiva Beast
Ssnake  Offline
Virtual Shiva Beast
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Germoney
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
While the population growth rate for Western and other first world countries has indeed leveled off or even decreased, the population growth rate for almost all developing and third world countries is still very high by comparison.

And yet, the growth rate is declining steadily. What's more, I know of no exception from the rule that the reproduction date is a function of the per capita income. Wherever the per capita income grows beyond the 12,000 USD threshold (per year), the birth rate falls under the sustaining rate of 2.1 children, and wherever the birth rate has dropped under 1.5 it has never recovered to anywhere close to 2.1. The USA are still growing exclusively thanks to immigration. If left to itself, like western Europe or Japan (and soon, China), the existing population is unable or unwilling to have as many children as would be required for a stable population number.
With shrinking population numbers will decline the relative economic importance the currently largest economies. The economic growth will be more and more generated ion the emerging markets, which will accelerate the prosperity (and therefore shrinking birth rates). This effect will percolate to even the poorest countries by the end of this century, at which point no country is left that produces a continuous surplus of young people. The world population will shrink, and it will shrink fast.

Like I wrote, not necessarily a bad thing for the global ecosphere, but a development for which neither we nor our children (and probably not the grandkids either) are preapred.

#4511347 - 03/18/20 01:13 AM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
F4UDash4 Online cool
Veteran
F4UDash4  Online Cool
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
SC
NASA spent a decade and nearly $1 billion for a single launch tower

Quote
The analysis finds that the total cost of constructing and modifying the structure, known as Mobile Launcher-1, is "at least" $927 million. This includes the original $234 million development cost to build the tower to support the Ares I rocket.
After this rocket was canceled in 2010, NASA then spent an additional $693 million to redesign and modify the structure for the SLS rocket. Notably, NASA's original estimate for modifying the launch tower was just $54 million, according to the report by Inspector General Paul Martin.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4519247 - 05/03/20 01:39 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,688
CyBerkut Offline
Administrator
CyBerkut  Offline
Administrator
Hotshot

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,688
Florida

#4519286 - 05/03/20 05:56 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: CyBerkut]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
F4UDash4 Online cool
Veteran
F4UDash4  Online Cool
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
SC



More than an entire Falcon Heavy launch vehicle.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4519311 - 05/03/20 08:40 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,572
Arthonon Offline
Veteran
Arthonon  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,572
California
And then they're expendable? That's crazy. I thought part of the cost of the original shuttle engines was that they needed to be reusable. How does making them expendable make them MORE expensive? (that's a rhetorical question)


Ken Cartwright

No single drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood.

http://www.techflyer.net

#4529763 - 07/13/20 01:08 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
F4UDash4 Online cool
Veteran
F4UDash4  Online Cool
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
SC


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4530284 - 07/16/20 06:58 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
F4UDash4 Online cool
Veteran
F4UDash4  Online Cool
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
SC
NASA’s inspector general report roasts Lockheed Martin for Orion fees

Quote
Since NASA awarded its first contract on Orion in August 2006, the report says NASA has spent $16.7 billion for development of Orion, or about $1.1 billion annually. NASA has paid the lion's share of those funds to Lockheed Martin, the prime contractor for development of the Orion capsule. For this tally, the report does not include funding for Orion's large Service Module, which is being built and delivered by the European Space Agency.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4535092 - 08/28/20 07:02 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
F4UDash4 Online cool
Veteran
F4UDash4  Online Cool
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
SC


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4546785 - 12/02/20 02:12 AM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
F4UDash4 Online cool
Veteran
F4UDash4  Online Cool
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,851
SC
Component failure in NASA’s deep-space crew capsule could take months to fix


"The component is difficult to reach: it’s located inside an adapter that connects Orion to its service module — a cylindrical trunk that provides support, propulsion, and power for the capsule during its trip through space. To get to the PDU, Lockheed Martin could remove the Orion crew capsule from its service module, but it’s a lengthy process that could take up to a year. As many as nine months would be needed to take the vehicle apart and put it back together again, in addition to three months for subsequent testing, according to the presentation."


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4546856 - 12/02/20 05:05 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 17,301
Nixer Offline
Scaliwag and Survivor
Nixer  Offline
Scaliwag and Survivor
Veteran

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 17,301
Living with the Trees
I like this one:

NASA spends $.72 of every SLS dollar on overhead costs

Oh well, good enough for government work...right?


Censored

Look for me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or Tic Toc...or anywhere you may frequent, besides SimHq, on the Global Scam Net. Aka, the internet.
I am not there, never have been or ever will be, but the fruitless search may be more gratifying then the "content" you might otherwise be exposed to.

"There's a sucker born every minute."
Phineas Taylor Barnum

#4546859 - 12/02/20 05:23 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,472
PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 121,472
Miami, FL USA
NASA currently gets just under 1% of the total Federal budget. Can you imagine how the incompetence would be magnified if we ever allowed the Feds to run a healthcare system for 330+ million people?


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
Page 4 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
Grumman Wildcat unique landing gear
by Coot. 04/17/24 03:54 PM
Peter Higgs was 94
by Rick_Rawlings. 04/17/24 12:28 AM
Whitey Herzog was 92
by F4UDash4. 04/16/24 04:41 PM
Anyone can tell me what this is?
by NoFlyBoy. 04/16/24 04:10 PM
10 Years ago MV Sewol
by wormfood. 04/15/24 08:25 PM
Pride Of Jenni race win
by NoFlyBoy. 04/15/24 12:22 AM
It's Friday: grown up humor for the weekend.
by NoFlyBoy. 04/12/24 01:41 PM
OJ Simpson Dead at 76
by bones. 04/11/24 03:02 PM
They wokefied tomb raider !!
by Blade_RJ. 04/10/24 03:09 PM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0