WOFF PE is awesome. It has it's quirks (yes, it has those Quirks, too!) and it can be tricky, for newcomers especially, to know whether they are getting the best out of the sim and whether their hardware is up to the challenge or if they need to upgrade parts or all of their systems. Then there's all those settings to contend with. What should be set where? And sadly but inevitably, they eventually stumble into a discussion about stutters somewhere, usually because they are experiencing some degree of it for themselves.

So let me say up front, this is NOT another 'stutter test'. It's a methodology for judging the effectiveness of a PC system running WOFF PE at full detail settings, using subjective appraisal of video capture as opposed to benchmarks. It is my contention that 'stutters' are inevitable with the vintage game engine that WOFF PE is built upon, but that with certain 'tweaks' to how the game runs, along with sufficient PC hardware horsepower, those 'stutters' can be mitigated and tamed to a level where it can be played and enjoyed, with smooth, consistent graphics rendering at maximum detail settings.

I think most veteran players and newcomers alike would welcome any information that potentially helps them achieve this, assuming they haven't managed to achieve it for themselves already. I do know that many of them would welcome any advice as to where they might best invest more money into hardware, to improve their current in-game experience. To this end, I'm hoping that this "Tweaker's Challenge" will solicit more entries than just mine, so that we can compare results and machine specs.

As an adjunct to this challenge, I have developed a "Tweaker's Guide" to optimizing WOFF PE. It will be available freely to anyone upon request (once I finish up the screen caps and editing). I don't claim it to be the ultimate or last word in optimizing WOFF, but I hope it will at least help some people to improve their current performance levels. Everything it contains has been applied in my reference video below.

Lastly, I'm omitting TrackIR for now, since not everyone uses it and it adds a whole other layer of tweaking considerations. However, these are explored in more detail in the guide. If people find this exercise useful, then I might follow up with a second one that includes TrackIR.

So, don't be shy, since there won't be any losers, but I do expect there to be some winners. Let's try to help each other through our participation.


Challenge Settings & Instructions - No TrackIR (disable the TIR client before running the test) *Any / All mods allowed

Create a German pilot with an enlistment date of 26 April 1917

Set up a QC mission exactly as shown in the screenshot below



Adjust your WOFF Workshops settings to match the screenshot below (your max resolution is preferred)



Use the following Nvidia Instant Replay Record settings to capture your video



When everything is ready, hit 'Go To Field'. Once the game has loaded, immediately enable player AI by hitting CTRL / SHIFT / A and let it run. Capture 2-3 minutes of video. Take as many attempts at it as you like, to get your best result.

Finally, trim as needed (include everything from the QC setup screen onward) and upload to Youtube. Share your link here along with specs for your PC and the graphics resolution you used.



System specs: i5 8600K @ 3.6GHz,16GB DDR4 @2666MHz. RTX2080, MSI Z370 mobo, Dell 27" G-SYNC @ 144Hz. 2560x1440

HarryH, I have a few suggestions for you to consider

1. Remove all mods. To eliminate variables beyond your control. MODS can be added later when the perfect settings are dialed in so that you can judge if MODs worsen the stutters or not.

2. Start with max settings, but without DX9 shaders because I suspect that is one of the causes.


Then add the MODs, test again, then add the shaders and test one last time.

Appreciate the suggestions, orby, thanks.

After much testing I know for a fact that on my system at least, PR's Scenery Enhancement is an essential performance enhancer. I have theories as to why that is the case, but regardless, I'd rather leave mods as optional for now, just in case someone has found a better combo of mods, or specific reasons for NOT using a particular mod (or mods). I intend the end goal here to be for a newcomer or an existing WOFF player to be able to look at a selection of videos and say "yes, I want mine to look and run like that one. What's the machine spec and how should I set about tweaking it?"

DX9 shaders: EDIT: Can you even turn them off in PE? I can't find an off button Why do you suspect them and what specifically do you suspect them of?

Quick note for those running PR's no blue triangles, scenery/fps enhancement mod. - it's not compatible with my GPU Tuner Patch for WOFF since the Tuner Patch is, among other things, a further development of the PR tweaks. I recommend trying both and using what works better on your particular rig. setups - for more info on the Tuner Patch, click on the relevant link in my sig. file below (my patch is slightly less GPU-intensive than the PR one, and, on ave., should give slightly higher fps, and no blue triangles at all - but, again, compare, test, choose the one that fits better for your rigs. - my patch was tested on AMD, not nVidia, by the way).

Happy flying all,
Von S

.... I'm glad that I added the bit about mods: yours had totally slipped by me, for some reason, until now Von S. Thank you for mentioning it here and for providing the link. I will definitely give it a spin over the weekend and let you know how it performs for me. Not sure how adaptable my Tweaker Challenge is to AMD but I would really love to see a video, if you're up for trying it. My son says AMD's latest tech is supposedly kicking butt

My WOFF PE BT Elimination Mod is based on nVidia, not AMD like VonS's mod, so that may be the difference in effects.

Thanks for clarifying that, PR. As I mentioned above, your mod has been significant in getting me to the point I'm at right now. So an open question to you both: what does the GPU tuner mod do differently or in addition? Is it purely a matter of tuning for specific GPUs?

It's disabled in the ini file located at \OBDSoftware\WOFF\WOFFScenery\Shaders

I set all shadow values to zero and disabled the DX9 extended Mode.

I gave it a quick test and I admit that I was wrong. Without the DX9 extended mode, the game was not smooth....

The main difference is that my tuner mod. slightly thins out tree congestion, also tinkers in different ways with the various ringdim and budget levels in the compositescenery and compositetexturebudgets files. I for example don't follow the unwritten rule of making sure that the various ringdim/level entries use only odd numbers, or only even numbers for lod sizes, density numbers, etc. - I've used both even and odd entries, without any trouble surfacing on my AMD/Intel Xeon rig.

I've received good feedback regarding the patch under the casual campaigns thread, but, again, it's possible that fans of my patch are running perhaps AMD instead of nVidia setups (didn't bother to check with posters to see what vid. cards they have). I also use a modified preload file tweaked from your preload file for no cloud popping. I've also tinkered with unorthodox patch pixel dim sizes and floating point sizes in the files, implementing a solution, that, at least on AMD, works nicely - float texture size of 650 in the terrains file under shaders30, patch pixel dim of 700 in compositetexturebudgets under terrains, terrain patch pixel dim size in the two d3d8 ini files of 100, instead of the stock value of 256).

If I manage to set up vid. recording properly on my Win10Pro side of the Mac Pro, I'll possibly look into taking a short video maybe in QC mode for 5 mins. or so - at any rate it might be good for me to look into vid. recording so I can make the casual campaigns threads more dynamic.

Happy flying,
Von S

As you can tell from VonS's comments above, he "tweeked" A LOT more items in his BT mod than me.

Since I am using a i9 9900K and RTX 2080 Ti, I did not have to worry about wringing out every last FPS than VonS is doing because I and running over 120 FPS normally all the time with my BT mod now.

Another difference is that I give you multiple options to pick your "Scenery Density" depending on your PC strength so a less powerful PC can use one of my lower selections to achieve the higher FPS (and less stutters) than a more powerful PC.

As they say, "everything comes with a price", so you just have to pick what you are willing to live with.

Try both his version and mine to see which one works best for you on your PC/Game in your opinion.

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A very interesting thread and idea. I do wonder though Harry, with you and the rest of the Nvidia system tweakers here, why ShadowPlay? Unless you've shut off the mountains of accompanying GForce Experience bloatware permanently you are using up a whole lot of precious resources for the sake of ShadowPlay and its instant replay service. OBS Studio is a much nicer, free, low-impact video shadow program. All the niceties of NVidia's SP with none of the added baggage and system drain.

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OBS? Is that OBD’s sister company Old Brown Skunk?

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. no Fullofit, it's Open Broadcaster Software.

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A very well taken point. I never use the bloated piece of cr@p that is GeForce Experience - and you can tell exactly what it's intended to do when they start making you use their shovelware utility just to get a feature they full well know many (uneducated) users will jump all over. If this is for the user's benefit, why not just provide the feature, without all the other cr@p?

In fact, I think I'll invent a new term here, just for this kind of thing (if it's not been used already) : Baitware

(Next stop, forced updates...oh wait, that's Microsoft...well, for now...)

Thanks orby, no worries.

I chose it for this exercise because my efforts at tweaking WOFF performance are built around nVida and its G-SYNC technology, and as a way to ensure a level playing field for submitted videos. One of the problems associated with showing visual evidence of in-game performance is the degradation from the capture and encoding processes, so a level playing is the best compromise IMO.

Actually I've found that Instant Replay with the record settings I laid out above has no noticeable impact on performance on my system. Does it not use the nVidia hardware to accelerate the capture / encode process? I did try both OBD and FRAPS. Neither showed much improvement without blowing up the file sizes enormously via higher resolution captures. Not practical for this exercise.

PR and Von S, thank you both for the explanations. All understood. I use the Mission Editor in campaign play and I do appreciate the integration with PR's mod. I always select the highest setting and then cull flights to keep missions at our around 100 planes, which most times yields smooth, consistent flying throughout the mission.

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We''ll have to agree to disagree on this one, Harry. I saw such a noticeable impact to WOFF performance, (and I do mean noticeable), on my older system with GForce Experience installed that I deleted it and all it's related bits and pieces completely, which means of course that I have no ShadowPlay. OBS Studio is the only video capture program I currently have and it works flawlessly with no hit to WOFF performance. So, based on your ground rules, I will not be able to participate in this challenge.

As for the G-SYNC technology, I still have that, even without GForce Experience.

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Well we're not comparing apples to apples then, so not exactly a disagreement I guess the older version either didn't use the GPU or it didn't use it very effectively. Certainly I was wary because I'd heard not so stellar things about Shadow Play, but what they have now can't be the same thing because it works and works well IMO. What is your GPU btw?

As for the video, I'd still love to see it. Happy for you to use OBS. I think it would be helpful for others to see what you've managed to coax out of WOFF, too.

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Harry, here are the current system specs on my WOFF computer:

CPU: Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz LGA 1155 95W Quad-Core, OC’d to 3.8GHz
CPU Fan: Arctic Super Cooler
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 16gb (4 x 4gb) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
Mobo: ASUS Sabertooth P67
Hard Drives: 2 Western Digital 640 GB Caviar Black SATA
Opti Drive: LG 22X DVD+/RW Dual Layer SATA Rewrite
Video Cards: Two EVGA GeForce GTX 970 04G-P4-3975-KR 4gb cards with HB SLI bridge
PS: Corsair HX 850 Watt
OS: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
LG 34UC89G-B 34-Inch 21:9 curved IPS monitor with G-SYNC, 2560x1080 native resolution
Four large case fans, plus the PS, CPU, mobo, and card fans
Saitek AV8R joystick
Saitek Pro Flight rudder pedals
Track IR4 camera with latest IR5 software

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Thanks Lou.

My input - Here are four tests I have done.
My system specs are in my signature.
I am running a much higher resolution than most users here. (7780x1440)
I am using OBS for recording (I do not have a problem with GE Force being installed, I like the options in OBS)
I have my frame rate limited - not sure that helps all that much.
I am using version 2 of the new Terrain Bump Mod
I am using WOFF PE (2) Scenery Improvement (Quality)

I did turn on AI never backs down to make the videos a bit more interesting.

I believe that setting priority = high for WOFF helps.
No so sure about restricting or setting CPU usage.

I think that there are select crashing sounds/animations that have an impact on FPS

As you will see I am using MSI after burner to record GPU and FPS
I think doing this is critical to understand performance.

Finally I find WOFF very enjoyable as it is.

These are recorded at 1440p
While my three monitors are showing everything, only the center monitor is being recorded.

Excellent, thank you Stache. I took a quick look at the first video. You have things running beautifully, good job! I'll check the others as well when I have some time.

Great thread,I'm not at the PC at the moment and so il watch the videos later..I've not used any video capturing for quite a while but if I can get everything up and running ok il certainly try to test..My downfall is that I'm a swine for mods and I don't like to install/ uninstall but il see what I can do great stuff lads

Just wondering if the 'test' quick combat scenario has a known stutter point in it. If not, then mightn't everyone's video look equally stutter-free?

I am not sure i am clear on how we can compare systems ... will there more to it then just watching a bunch of videos and each coming to our own conclusion? Seems we should get some kind of summary with each video to say how many stutters are seen, and how bad/good?

Absolutely, and a point which has been completely omitted in this entire prospect.

A valid test must absolutely show a point/points which will cause stutter, then have whatever settings/tweaks/mods applied to show the stutters gone. In the interest of being thorough, you should undo the patch, tweak, or mod and show the exact same test again, now with stutters returned.

An excellent point indeed.

I do not use any of nVidia's "extras", like Gforce Experience or even the additional drivers nVidia provides. I just use the bare minimum drivers needed to pay my games, so no extra "bloatware".

I tried that before, Scout. WOFF simply isn't scripted in any way, so every flight is unique. This is a high stress QC IMO and it already appears that better hardware gives better results. Yes I hope there will be more videos. Tempting to put a scoring system in place but then there's a big danger that people will get offended and then the whole thing turns into a mess. I think people can judge for themselves, to a degree at least, whether someone else's video is exhibiting a smoother, more consistent flying experience than their own. For example, Stache's video is superior to mine, to my eyes. Neither exhibit any obvious flaws.

My concern is that we won't see many if any videos posted that exhibit any flaws, because people might be too intimidated by the reactions they get. A scoring system would likely make that situation worse. However, I think it's of value, even if we only see a bunch of excellent videos. For example, if you see a video that's better than anything you can manage with the reference test, then you can look at the other person's hardware specs and start trying to figure out why that might be. You can also request my Tweaker's Guide. If your test compares favorably to Stache's, I would say you're already in great shape and you don't have to post if you don't want to.

One of my reservations, going into this, was that I'd be accused of showboating, rather it being a genuine attempt to prove to newcomers to WOFF that smooth, consistent flying is achievable with the sim. To be honest, there's every chance that accusation will come at some point from somewhere. However, I've put a lot of time into the guide, which I didn't have to, so hopefully that speaks for itself.

It's not a test, it's a challenge. Read the intro. Submit your video. Or not.

I was going to suggest using the z key, but I like your idea better. It's a perfect way to tell when those major dips in FPS occur and maybe narrow down the issue which caused it. I may give this challenge a go as well, but use Stache's idea to pinpoint any FPS dips for my own use.

That'd be great, orby, go for it!

Orby, I agree that dips do occur, especially as the air traffic density goes up, and even more frequently when TIR is in use and competing for resources (hence the idea to use separate cores). If I set V-Sync to 1/2 refresh rate, with that rate being set to 144Hz, I end up with less dips which = a smoother, more consistent flying experience.

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Harry, here is my video.



I set up the QC with all settings maxed out as per your instructions, and did not pan around at the beginning of the mission, (which I normally do to pre-load items and minimize the initial stutters and choppiness). Also, simply having video capture on while flying causes things to run less smoothly on my older system due to the increased processing demands. And apologies for the lower video quality, I uploaded at the wrong setting - again. With these qualifiers in mind, here is what things look like in my WOFF world when running and recording your challenge. I hope this is helpful.

Oh, and again, here are the current system specs on my WOFF computer:

CPU: Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz LGA 1155 95W Quad-Core, OC’d to 3.8GHz
CPU Fan: Arctic Super Cooler
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 16gb (4 x 4gb) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
Mobo: ASUS Sabertooth P67
Hard Drives: 2 Western Digital 640 GB Caviar Black SATA
Opti Drive: LG 22X DVD+/RW Dual Layer SATA Rewrite
Video Cards: Two EVGA GeForce GTX 970 04G-P4-3975-KR 4gb cards with HB SLI bridge
PS: Corsair HX 850 Watt
OS: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
LG 34UC89G-B 34-Inch 21:9 curved IPS monitor with G-SYNC, 2560x1080 native resolution
Four large case fans, plus the PS, CPU, mobo, and card fans
Saitek AV8R joystick
Saitek Pro Flight rudder pedals
Track IR4 camera with latest IR5 software


Lou

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Not a lot wrong with that Lou. One or two noticeable moments of less than smooth, but pretty darn good overall I'd say. Do you find that PE is generally smoother than UE was on your system?

Thanks for participating!

Ok, one last video from me before I send myself off to the naughty chair for a self imposed cool down period. This one has full-on TrackIR with my most recent custom profile, manual flying (KKSnowbear's right, the DR-1 is hella fun to fly once you get the hang of it. I still need more practice though.)

Anyway, I've finally achieved what I have wanted for a very long time. For over four years, in fact. Per Lou's plumbing analogy, yes the pipes are only so big, but what matters most in the end is how smooth and how consistent you can have this old bird fly, given it's limitations. I absolutely love everything that OBD has done with this sim and I'm fiercely loyal to them, sometimes to my own detriment, admittedly. But at last, the negative cloud that's been bugging me for so long has been lifted. Yes it's an ancient game engine, yes the pipeline is limited, but surely we can do better with today's hardware? Well, I can at last say with confidence, yes we can.

I'm still around if you want to reach out via PM. For now, I hope you enjoy the video and happy flying all. Stay safe!



H

Great stuff H, take care stay safe and hopefully you'll be back sooner rather than later pal.

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Don't be away too long Harry, you need to come back and keep things lively around here. That last video of yours was very nice, so much so that it prompted me to do one with TrackIR and more planes as well. It's uploading right now and I will post it soon. As for PE vs UE in smoothness, I find them both to be about the same really.

To my first entry, there was one particularly nasty hiccup caused when Java Update launched, yet again I'd forgotten to turn the dam'd thing off before flying. I remembered on this one I'm uploading now though.

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As promised:



Here is a second challenge video using TrackIR, and more planes on both sides. I also moved farther south to get more trees in the landscape. Again, all in-sim sliders are maxed out. Also, on this one, I did pan around outside the cockpit before beginning as this definitely helps minimize initial stutters and hesitations.

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Here is my submission. I made it long (~9 minutes) and with afterburner monitoring so that I can review it. I will discuss the findings regarding CPU usage, Frames, etc... in my other thread as I don't want to derail this one.

System

CPU: i7-9700
GPU: 2080 Ti
HDD: M.2 SSD drive

Just watched both videos, I really enjoyed them. WOFF PE looks absolutely stunning at times.
Is it ok to ask if any of you guys use VonS GPU tuner or Panama Reds BT mods? Thank you.

I use a slightly modified VonS GPU tuner with my own settings.

Thank you OrbyxP

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Adger, I am not using either one of them. I use EVGA PrecisionX 16 and OC Scanner X for tweaking my GPUs, and I've not really had blue triangles since making the move to PE.

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Thank you for your reply Lou i have a EVGA 1070 so thanks il have a nosy at both PrecisionX and OC scanner.
Cheers pal