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#4516110 - 04/13/20 12:08 AM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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xjouve Offline
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I've made noticeable progress today on understanding how to get better fitment between landclass, rivers and map as well. I'll post about that tomorrow as it is 2am in France now, and I need a good sleep! smile

Amiens on the east

[Linked Image]

Saint Quentin on the east

[Linked Image]

Péronne on the north

[Linked Image]

The Somme River

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Best Regards,
Xav.
#4516145 - 04/13/20 10:42 AM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: gecko]  
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I've got a question for you gecko. I saw your work on cfs3h2o.dds and in all regards, it is very good.

From my understranding, this file is more or less a landclass for waters, isn't it? It tell's CFS3 engine which color to use for water according to the region. Can't understand why it has been rotated and inverted, BTW. Anyway.

I tried yours and then my own customization to replace the one into /fxtextures, but I got no chance to make it working with the last version of WOFF. Do you know if it is still compatible?

In fact, it is obvious that in the Somme River region, the water needs to be way more green, so I'm trying to improve accuracy.

Originally Posted by gecko
I'm not often over here, but xjouve's posts at SOH on this brought me. I think there may be a way to have two types of shoreline. Not sure if it will work, but may be worth a shot. Since you are making incredibly detailed water features, the stream.dds texture (which has been made invisible in WOFF) could possibly be repurposed as a shoreline since it clearly won't be needed for its original purpose. As I understand it, using this texture involves adding a stream vector the same way roads are added. So in theory, you could leave the shoreline texture looking more beachy, and use stream.dds to create a shoreline texture better suited to rivers and small bodies of water, and use no edge texture in other areas, such as where a river passes through a town.

Best of luck on this project, looks like you've made some great improvements! As a CFS3 guy, I hope this eventually ends up part of a full size map, but in any case I'm looking forward to what you do with it.


Best Regards,
Xav.
#4516152 - 04/13/20 12:09 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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So, yesterday, to find a way of reconciling all layers used to terrain creation in CFS3, I've almost restarted to the very beginning.

I eventually recalculated the elevation layer for the entire theater. I may have used some different data than that of Microsoft developers back in the days as it does produce slight dissimilarities ingame. And this is good as it makes waterbeds fitting better; especially when it comes to very tight elevation discrepancies.

Just an example: look at my last screenshot above. And now, look at the one I just took couple of minutes ago after having installed the new elevation files into WOFF. The red circle is where you can see the main difference between both.

[Linked Image]

Now, here are the steps.

1) Genuine elevation data from Global Mapper

[Linked Image]

Projection is Geo/WGS84

2) Conversion for CFS3 engine

[Linked Image]

Projection is ???.

a) Notice that from a rectangular shape, ers2tiff (Microsoft app), has turned it into a square (not exactly, but very very close to). I thought that it could be a Mercator projection (used for example by Google Maps), but it isn't. I made tests with maps and it proved not to be the same. It seems to be a brutal resize... Nothing more than that.

b) Notice that the file has borders. And not tight ones.

3) Use as a background for an all-in-one layers file

[Linked Image]

a) Notice that although I've vastly enlarged the file, I kept borders.

4) Playing with the layers

[Linked Image]

a) Notice that I've used rivers as the reference. Looking ingame, I've adjusted all other layers relatively to rivers as they are static once installed into the game. The truth is that adjustments were only a matter of couple of pixels, not much really as layers came fairly well all together from the beginning.

Last edited by xjouve; 04/13/20 12:27 PM.

Best Regards,
Xav.
#4516206 - 04/13/20 05:37 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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Thanks, glad you liked it. Yes, that's basically what cfs3h2o.dds does. I have installed it on WOFF, and it works, though it looks a little different since I think some of the water shaders may be a bit different. Since it sounds like you have redone the full map my texture will fit approximately, but there are some areas where the colors will not be in the right place. Ideally it would need to be redone specifically for your map using your final water outlines image. It can be made much more quickly and accurately that way. I'd like to do one at twice or 4x the resolution of my largest version, as I think your map would be able to take advantage of that, but my PC is not powerful enough to work with such a large file.

#4516227 - 04/13/20 07:24 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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xjouve Offline
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Which version of WOFF are you running? I've retried with PE 5.04 and it doesn't change anything. That's weird.

Well, I'm uninstalling the game and I'll try with 5.03 as it seems me that I tried your mod successfully on this one.

Last edited by xjouve; 04/13/20 07:25 PM.

Best Regards,
Xav.
#4516229 - 04/13/20 07:42 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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Today I succeeded in using 1 arc-sec elevation data for the whole theater. I created 2 versions of it.

1) Resolutions from 128m to 37km Similarly to original terrain files

[Linked Image]

2) Resolutions from 32m to 37km. Look at the size of files, that is a massive mod

[Linked Image]

Flying over the Somme region, my first impression is that the first solution is good, while the massive mod is overkill (and my graphics are going short on FPS; I didn't measure them, but considering the lack of fluidity, I guess about 15-20 FPS at most. However, maybe someone with a better machine could take advantage of it)

Last edited by xjouve; 04/13/20 07:44 PM.

Best Regards,
Xav.
#4516239 - 04/13/20 08:53 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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Fascinating stuff. Keep up the good work!

I wish I understood more of it!


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4516255 - 04/13/20 10:20 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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L'Etoile du Nord
.

I agree Bob. The screenshots are fascinating and most encouraging. The explanation of how it's being done reads like the following for me: Это все больше, чем я могу понять, и это действительно не имеет никакого смысла для меня вообще.

.

#4516256 - 04/13/20 10:35 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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BuckeyeBob Offline
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I like the pictures, too! Other than that, it's all Greek (or Russian) to me.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4516260 - 04/13/20 11:25 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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gecko Offline
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I'm using PE 5.04, and it works fine for me. As mentioned before, it does look different from how it looks in stock CFS3. If you're still having trouble, PM me your email and we can go from there.

#4516321 - 04/14/20 12:45 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: gecko]  
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xjouve Offline
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Originally Posted by RAF_Louvert
.

I agree Bob. The screenshots are fascinating and most encouraging. The explanation of how it's being done reads like the following for me: Это все больше, чем я могу понять, и это действительно не имеет никакого смысла для меня вообще.

.

Originally Posted by BuckeyeBob
I like the pictures, too! Other than that, it's all Greek (or Russian) to me.


Greek and Russian are both Chinese to me! wink

Originally Posted by gecko
I'm using PE 5.04, and it works fine for me. As mentioned before, it does look different from how it looks in stock CFS3. If you're still having trouble, PM me your email and we can go from there.


I found out the problem. My machine can't run big cfs3h2o.dds. It runs okay with 1024x1024; but above that, when ingame, my plane rolls in place for ever and I can't get control over it. I didn't notice that the problem was the size of the cfs3h2o.dds before.

So, I've made some tests about which color to choose for the Somme River. Although I think that your mod would be appropriate as well.

  • 1) I started from an actual view of the Somme River

    [Linked Image]

    Two points to notice there. The Somme waterbed is made 2 types of waterflow.

    a) One big part, kind of marshes, which is almost static, encouraging growth of aquatic plants, producing a dark green color

    b) One tight part, a canal, with constant flow, producing a medium green color

    So, I tested with these 2 types of green. However, as you can see in the above picture, these are not definite colors, but color sets, and that is not possible to display at a resolution of 1024x1024px for the whole theater.
  • 2) Dark green test

    [Linked Image]

    [Linked Image]

    [Linked Image]
  • 3) Medium green test

    [Linked Image]

    [Linked Image]

    [Linked Image]


Best Regards,
Xav.
#4516337 - 04/14/20 02:29 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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xjouve Offline
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Finally, it seems like it was not the size of cfs3h2o.dds that matters. I've succeeded in using a bigger one of 8192x8192px by reducing dds compression quality to bare minimum.

That size is needed to support the mod I want to use.

Look at the following screenshot. I've added a bit a heterogeneity into the water so that the color isn't uniform. I know that it is not easy to see it, but I do believe it adds something to create a more accurate look.


[Linked Image]


Best Regards,
Xav.
#4516371 - 04/14/20 05:08 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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CCIP Offline
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I've been quietly following progress, and I think this looks great! Took me a moment to see the variation, but now I definitely see it and it's a good detail in my book. The only suggestion I'd have is to try and hide the "squares (since apparently every pixel of the texture covers a huge square on the ground) - you can do it by making it more of a gradient between brighter and darker areas, or you can set them up in lines/rectangles of the same/similar colour but different length. It's just a sort of psychological trick, we humans have a tendency to unconsciously notice perfect squares especially if there's multiple ones, since that's not a shape we're used to seeing in natural landscapes smile
I also definitely like the darker, greener-looking water in general, both because it looks more natural for this theater - and because it blends into the landscape more, and it also actually helps conceal the "sharp" shorelines. I've never been a fan of the crisp blue when it's not the tropics. Out of curiosity - does CFS3 have any waterclasses, or is all the water in it the same texture?

As far as an earlier note about hitting limits with things like flow modeling for the flooded farmland - my two cents is that I think what you have looks fantastic and a great improvement over stock WOFF, and I would not worry too much about perfect precision! Anything that it takes to give a better illusion of "being there" is great in my book, and even if you have to guess or "fudge" the water shapes a little - it's a worthy tradeoff.

And maybe it's a pipe dream for someone else to do in the future - but what I would give to see some small boats (even static ones), reeds or other water plants, some foot bridges and maybe even board walkways along the shore... then again, I suppose we're not really going on a sightseeing trip here smile


If you're having trim problems, I feel bad for you son
I got ninety-nine problems, but my pitch ain't one...
#4516379 - 04/14/20 05:44 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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gecko Offline
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Glad you found the problem. The downside of lower quality is the artifacts that tend to show up, and they can get quite noticable on the water texture because of how big the pixels are. I think for the level of detail you are going for you'd need 16384 x 16384.

CCIP, all CFS3 water color is on one texture, but it functions as a map to the entire gameap. If you want to try mine it is available here:
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links.php?catid=158

#4516435 - 04/15/20 07:14 AM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: gecko]  
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xjouve Offline
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Originally Posted by CCIP
I've been quietly following progress, and I think this looks great! Took me a moment to see the variation, but now I definitely see it and it's a good detail in my book. The only suggestion I'd have is to try and hide the "squares (since apparently every pixel of the texture covers a huge square on the ground) - you can do it by making it more of a gradient between brighter and darker areas, or you can set them up in lines/rectangles of the same/similar colour but different length. It's just a sort of psychological trick, we humans have a tendency to unconsciously notice perfect squares especially if there's multiple ones, since that's not a shape we're used to seeing in natural landscapes smile
I also definitely like the darker, greener-looking water in general, both because it looks more natural for this theater - and because it blends into the landscape more, and it also actually helps conceal the "sharp" shorelines. I've never been a fan of the crisp blue when it's not the tropics. Out of curiosity - does CFS3 have any waterclasses, or is all the water in it the same texture?

As far as an earlier note about hitting limits with things like flow modeling for the flooded farmland - my two cents is that I think what you have looks fantastic and a great improvement over stock WOFF, and I would not worry too much about perfect precision! Anything that it takes to give a better illusion of "being there" is great in my book, and even if you have to guess or "fudge" the water shapes a little - it's a worthy tradeoff.

And maybe it's a pipe dream for someone else to do in the future - but what I would give to see some small boats (even static ones), reeds or other water plants, some foot bridges and maybe even board walkways along the shore... then again, I suppose we're not really going on a sightseeing trip here smile


Thanks! I agree for the daker green.

Regarding the angular look, it depends on the part they come from.

If they are generated by the landclass file (LCF), then I won't be able to do much improvement as any gradient is made of different colors, therefore, we have two solutions:

(1) Telling the landclass file (as it needs to know) that new variation of let’s say "green" (the color used for "forest"), also correponds to "forest", and then it would generate the same ingame
(2) Telling the landclass file (as it needs to know) that new variation of let’s say "green" (the color used for "forest"), correponds to "border of forest" (a new class then), and as a matter of fact we would need a new appropriate texture to display something ingame that simulates a smoother transition between, for example, a forest and a field

If they are generated by the river vectors (hyp), then I could try smoothing a bit the polygons (rivers, lakes, etc.). But it has limits: the smoother the polygons, the more the number of vertices (points that once placed the one after the others create the shape), and the more difficult for Microsoft water design files to run. I mean the simpler way to design a line is by using 2 vertices, one for each extreme. It will produce a straight line. Now, if you want to design a curved line, you'll obviously need much more vertices. And imagine when you want to design at same time lakes, rivers, etc. The number of vertices increases dramatically and even more when trying to get those shapes as smoother as possible. smile

Originally Posted by gecko
Glad you found the problem. The downside of lower quality is the artifacts that tend to show up, and they can get quite noticable on the water texture because of how big the pixels are. I think for the level of detail you are going for you'd need 16384 x 16384.

CCIP, all CFS3 water color is on one texture, but it functions as a map to the entire gameap. If you want to try mine it is available here:
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links.php?catid=158


Well, as I'm creating sub-theaters (that will finally include at the end -I guess- only water related mods), I don't really need to cover the whole CFS3 theater. Therefore, it reduces the necessary size of cfs3h2o.dds. But, it seems ATM that I'm not done with weird problems with this file. I got random crashes last time I tested with this specific mod installed.

PS: I cannot recommend more Gecko's water color textures. A must have!




Last edited by xjouve; 04/15/20 08:45 AM.

Best Regards,
Xav.
#4516592 - 04/15/20 10:56 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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xjouve Offline
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Found out today how to control zoom on in-flight map. I didn't realize that before because of faulty placement of big maps each time I tried. Anyway, a map of 8192x8192px can be used full resolution. A larger size might be possible, however, I've tried to use a 20480x20480px map, showing all the little villages, but I didn't get something good.

I have also worked on improving my maps.

The color one

[Linked Image]

The B&W one

[Linked Image]

Close-up (not really intresting without more details)

[Linked Image]

The big map

[Linked Image]

Even with almost no zoom, it is hard to decifer something. Too bad. The dds is of good quality, but there is something with CFS3 there.

Last edited by xjouve; 04/15/20 11:00 PM.

Best Regards,
Xav.
#4516603 - 04/15/20 11:44 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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Those in flight maps look like winners in my book, xjouve. Do you know if there is a way to make the green plane disappear, but keep everything else including all the waypoint lines?

#4516628 - 04/16/20 06:16 AM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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xjouve Offline
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Thanks!

Unfortunately, plane and waypoints are parts the same feature (route).

Ground targets can be removed

[Linked Image]

Route can be removed as well

[Linked Image]

Even the frontline can be removed

[Linked Image]

And we can play with colors and width of the frontline (I like this version)

[Linked Image]

In case you don't like the green colour, then it can be changed.

[Linked Image]

Also, such changes cannot be done ingame. smile

Last edited by xjouve; 04/16/20 08:15 AM.

Best Regards,
Xav.
#4516667 - 04/16/20 12:25 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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Hallo @xjouve,

it's getting more and more interesting …!

So I have a question (2 examples) to understand better the potenzial of your method:
a) Map Alsace, west from Colmar you can see the "Lac de Longemer" and north from it the river "Nuene" (in WOFF and reality). The river flows through the mountains and at some places uphill.
b) Map Alsace, east from Mulhouse and Habsheim there's a lake, nobody knows it.

Is it possible to repair such things with your method?

Thanks for answer!

Last edited by Becker01; 04/16/20 04:12 PM.
#4516676 - 04/16/20 01:05 PM Re: New theater (Questions & Progress) [Re: xjouve]  
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xjouve Offline
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Hallo! Danke shön!

We'll have much more in this area. smile


a) Vosges

[Linked Image]

b) Mulhouse

[Linked Image]


Best Regards,
Xav.
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