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#4515135 - 04/07/20 03:24 PM New graphics card needed  
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My old PC died, so I bought a new HP 843F mini PC. The graphics card that came with it is an Intel Celeron G4900@3.10 GHz. It also shows, Intel UHD graphics 610. It has a DDR4 memory card at 4GB. Please understand, I don't know what any of this means. I'd like to get an Nvidia card to install. I think it has to be a mini card. I looked inside, and there isn't much room for a card. Does anyone have any suggestions on what I should get?
Right now, while in-game, I average about 32-34 fps. Most of my settings are either on low or, in some cases, off. On the numerical settings, half way. I want to enjoy this sim to the fullest, if that's possible.
Thanks.

Last edited by jakethescot1; 04/07/20 03:25 PM.
#4515150 - 04/07/20 04:24 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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Hopefully some of our computer specialists will pitch in with more info., but, as far as I know, and, working from my own experiences with mini computers (Mac Mini) - there usually is no slot available for an external (or internal), discrete graphics card.

I remember a few years ago that external and discrete graphics cards were talked about all over the net, as the latest thing, that will be easily pluggable into usb3 and other ports on mini/compact computers - but I haven't been paying attention to developments in that area.

I recommend running most settings in the WOFF main menu at no higher than medium, on "integrated" vid. cards - and perhaps also trying out my WOFF GPU Tuner patch - it may help to bring fps up a bit on your rig.

(The Celeron running at 3.1 GHz is, by the way, your central processor - the graphics card is the UHD 610, integrated onto the main processor, the Celeron in your case, and not removable.)

Von S

Last edited by VonS; 04/07/20 04:25 PM. Reason: Added info.

// FE2 on a Mac (https://tinyurl.com/FE2onMac) // WOFF on a Mac (https://tinyurl.com/WOFFonMac) // FE2 FMs (https://tinyurl.com/FE2fms) // WOFF FMs (https://tinyurl.com/WOFFfms) // WOTR FMs (https://tinyurl.com/WOTRfms) // WOFF GPU Tuner (https://tinyurl.com/WOFFgputuner) // WOTR GPU Tuner (https://tinyurl.com/WOTRgputuner) // All VonS WOFF/WOTR mods. are tweaks of files that are © OBD Software. //
#4515157 - 04/07/20 05:06 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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https://SimHQ.com/forum/tmp/23440.jpg
Isn't this for a graphics card?

Attached Files pci slot.jpg
Last edited by jakethescot1; 04/07/20 05:06 PM.
#4515159 - 04/07/20 05:20 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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That wide port certainly looks like the standard "PCI/PCIe" port that takes a discrete graphics card - although, depending on the size of the compact computer, you might have to have the enclosure/lid off for something to be installed in that port. Also, check the back of the computer for ports that have a small icon near them that display the image of "lightning flashing." Those are known as Thunderbolt 3 ports and are usually the best indication whether or not a compact computer can take an external, discrete graphics card via that port.

If you install a separate graphics card into that PCI port that is on your pic., you will then technically have an "internal, discrete graphics card" installed - but, as noted above, I have no idea if that is a practical option considering the compact case size of such computers.

Hopefully other posters will pitch in if they have experience with installing "eGPU" devices (external graphics cards) on compact computers. Hope you're able to sort things out and get WOFF running at higher fps and settings.

Von S smile


// FE2 on a Mac (https://tinyurl.com/FE2onMac) // WOFF on a Mac (https://tinyurl.com/WOFFonMac) // FE2 FMs (https://tinyurl.com/FE2fms) // WOFF FMs (https://tinyurl.com/WOFFfms) // WOTR FMs (https://tinyurl.com/WOTRfms) // WOFF GPU Tuner (https://tinyurl.com/WOFFgputuner) // WOTR GPU Tuner (https://tinyurl.com/WOTRgputuner) // All VonS WOFF/WOTR mods. are tweaks of files that are © OBD Software. //
#4515163 - 04/07/20 05:47 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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Thank you, VonS.

#4515166 - 04/07/20 05:58 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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Jake, you'll need to measure but it looks like a mini card will fit. Depending on your budget, for just under $300 the ZOTAC GeForce GTX 1660 Ti 6GB card looks like a good amount of power in a small box. You will need to make sure your mobo, CPU, and memory sticks will be compatible with your choice, and that your power supply has the heft to push any card you may decide to plug in. Unfortunately, most of those little value-priced PCs scrimp a lot on the power supply. If you get a chance you should PM someone like kksnowbear, he builds gaming rigs and has a wealth of info when it comes to them. Good luck.

Lou

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#4515173 - 04/07/20 06:24 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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(Thanks for the shout-out Lou salute )

Hi Jake, I'd be glad to help, we can discuss in PMs if you want or here, up to you. A couple things at first though:

Yes, it appears the long, thin slot your picture shows is in fact a PCIe x16 graphics card slot (this according to HP website).

And Lou makes an excellent point above, as does VonS: The real issue(s) with upgrading these 'mini' machines is physical space and power. That said, the GPU manufacturers know about these limitations and - sometimes, depending on exactly how tight the restrictions are - you can find scaled-down versions of cards that require less space and power (though sometimes at a premium, since they also know anyone looking at those cards is generally doing so because they have no other option).

Couple things you can find out that will help tremendously:

"HP843F" appears to be a reference number for the motherboard, but in order to know about physical fit and power, we really need the model number of teh PC as a whole. Look outside the chassis, front and particularly back, to see if there's a label or badge with a model number. Also, on the power supply (hereafter, "PSU") look and see if there's a label on it of any sort. If you can get pictures of these labels, all the better!

Fear not, if there is a card that meets your requirements, we'll get it in there smile I have done a few such upgrades with other forums members who were in similar circumstances (including both written and telephone support, if needed). No charge, of course, unless you're interested in acquiring hardware I may already have smile

#4515180 - 04/07/20 06:59 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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Further to the requests for more info above: It looks as if the 843F is what HP calls a "Menlo" motherboard, and it appears to be used in a wide range of HP Small Form Factor (SFF) machines like yours. Most seem to have model numbers beginning with 280G3 or 290G1 and then possibly some other numbers after that. Maybe this will help you find the actual model number.


EDIT: Any chance this is a HP Slimline 290-p0043w? HP Link : https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c06102969

Last edited by kksnowbear; 04/07/20 07:03 PM.
#4515186 - 04/07/20 07:52 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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Hope this helps. I followed the link you posted. I believe that's it.

https://SimHQ.com/forum/tmp/23444.jpg

Attached Files CPU info.jpg
Last edited by jakethescot1; 04/07/20 07:54 PM.
#4515187 - 04/07/20 07:57 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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Yessir, sure does, it's the model I mentioned above (290-p0043w)...unfortunately, that specific model imposes some very tight constraints - both physical and power - on your options.

Kindly allow me a moment to finish up some research I'm doing on it, and I'll get back here soon as I can smile

#4515189 - 04/07/20 08:01 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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If I'm honest Jake I'm not sure if a new GPU will give you much more of a impact. WOFF like its predecessors likes CPUs ( your celeron G4900) which I believe is pretty low end ..you can grab them for about 40 quid. Also the highest the single core on the CPU the better.

If you were going to pay upwards of 150-£200 for a new GPU I'd definitely want to make sure that the money to performance ratio is worth it.
Best of luck in what you decide pal


"Vis unita fortior"

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#4515191 - 04/07/20 08:03 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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Take all the time you need. I really do appreciate your, Lou, and VonS help. You three have done way more than I expected.

#4515192 - 04/07/20 08:05 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: Adger]  
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Thanks, Adger.

#4515195 - 04/07/20 08:21 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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Your welcome mate.

Just for a quick comparison I use a older CPU (i7 4790k) in fact it's 4 yrs older than yours mate and because it's the fastest CPU that I can use with my old motherboard. And I get a Cpumark of 8241..yours gives a mark of 2365.
I just don't want you to get burnt mate if you spent that kind of cash for only a bit of a performance boost,the ideal situation would be if somewhere would let you test a Nvidia or AMD GPU and see if there's much performance increase pal.

Again best of luck mate I sincerely hope you get the performance you'd like.


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4515197 - 04/07/20 08:31 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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So it looks as if, due primarily to the limitations of the PSU in that unit (it's 180 watts, which is extremely conservative), you'd pretty much be limited to a GT-1030 card. The GT1030 is the type of card I mentioned above, essentially made with these very constrained SFF systems in mind; it's a 30 watt card, which is almost assuredly the lowest-power requirement of any newer (10- or 20-series) GPU.

Mind you, this assumes you're only interested in buying new, current generation. There may be other choices if you're interested or your budget is super tight.

Here's a thread on the HP site about a guy who did just what you're looking at:

HP Slimline Upgrade

There are probably lots more like him out there. Although I didn't actually watch them, in my searching I saw quite a few videos about upgrading these HP SFF machines.

The GT1030 should be a fairly big performance advantage over the Intel 610 graphics; anywhere from 200-400% performance. It's a 2G card, so the usable resolution is going to be 1080p or less, but this is probably well beyond what the 610 is doing. Plus, the 610 uses some of your system's memory, leaving you less than 4G - any dedicated add-in card will have it's own memory thus leaving more for the rest of your system.

Will it max out WOFF? No. Particularly not with the CPU you have, since WOFF tends to be somewhat CPU constrained. Will it provide decent performance? Probably. Define "decent" smile It really depends on what you're used to. If you've been using the integrated 610 Intel graphics, I cannot imagine you'd be anything but thrilled with the difference even a 1030 could make.

You can find these at most online computer sites (NewEgg, Amazon...) for around $90 depending on exact model.

Also: You'll need to consider what type connection you're using to the monitor. Most common if you're using a TV is HDMI, but there's also DisplayPort and DVI, or even the older VGA - depends on connections on your monitor and cable(s) you already have (unless you wish to buy others). According to the manuals from HP, that model has HDMI and VGA ports on the back for the onboard video.

If you're interested in going beyond what the GT1030 can do, I believe that, technically speaking, you could upgrade the power supply (at additional cost of course) and then support a more powerful GPU; something like the 1660 Lou mentioned above. Those are the most powerful cards (I think) you can get without exceeding the wattage on the PCIe slot itself (meaning the card won't use more than 75 watts.)

(Note that I work far more with Nvidia cards than AMD, so that's what I usually discuss - but this is not to say AMD doesn't have cards that would work. If you're more keen toward AMD, let me know and we'll see what's available).

I hope this helps, and please feel free to ask any questions.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 04/07/20 08:43 PM.
#4515201 - 04/07/20 08:40 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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I should say that, although there is no doubt a fast CPU is important in this sim, I would disagree with the concept that a faster GPU won't give much of an impact.

First, you have to consider that you're already accustomed to the CPU you have and the integrated graphics. So, while it may not be able to max out this sim (as I said above), the more powerful GPU will absolutely outperform what you're used to.

In lay terms, your CPU isn't going to get any slower than what you're already used to...so...you're already used to it wink And your GPU will be a lot stronger, which is bound to be much better than what you're used to now.

And, don't forget: The integrated graphics also use system resources that are freed up if you use a dedicated graphics card. This also helps alleviate a lot of burden on a resource-constrained machine.

Would it be good to upgrade the CPU? Yep - and it can be done any time. Is it putting anywhere near the kind of drag on your performance the GPU is? Not likely.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 04/07/20 08:50 PM.
#4515208 - 04/07/20 09:10 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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My head hurts. So, in order to replace the CPU, I'll have to take components out, install the new CPU, and then put everything back in. OK. So, I need to find a CPU that is compatible with a 300 series motherboard?

Wait. I found this on the link provided.

Motherboard supports the following processor upgrades:

Intel Core i5-8400 (2.8 GHz base frequency, up to 4 GHz with Intel Turbo Boost Technology, 9 MB cache, 6 cores)
65 W
Intel UHD Graphics 630
Intel Core i7-8700 (3.2 GHz base frequency, up to 4.6 GHz with Intel Turbo Boost Technology, 12 MB cache, 6 cores)
65 W
Intel UHD Graphics 630
Intel Core i3-8100 (3.6 GHz base frequency, 6 MB cache, 4 cores)
65 W
Intel UHD Graphics 630
Intel Pentium Gold G5400 (3.7 GHz base frequency, 4 MB cache, 2 cores)
54 W - 58 W
Intel UHD Graphics 610
Intel Celeron G4900 (3.1 GHz base frequency, 2 MB cache, 2 cores)
54 W
Intel UHD Graphics 610

Use on of these?

Last edited by jakethescot1; 04/07/20 09:15 PM.
#4515216 - 04/07/20 09:35 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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Well, I didn't address a CPU upgrade because you didn't ask about it wink

And, again, I don't think it's strictly necessary; you will still get improvement from just changing the GPU.

All that said, if money is less of an object (which I never assume) then by all means, change the CPU too. It should be mentioned, however, that whatever cost savings were realized by buying one of these SFF machines to begin with, can quickly disappear with upgrades. If you'll forgive my saying so, you'd have probably been better off buying a different machine to start with.

Unfortunately, here again with the CPU upgrade as with the GPU, power supply (watts) is going to be a major factor. Notice that the Celeron G4900 is a 54W (that's watts) CPU. So, you could use any other 54W CPU without requiring more power.

The problem is there's only one other 54W processor in the list, and even that says "54-58W". It runs slightly faster and has more cache memory than the Celeron you're using now, so it's definitely an upgrade of sorts.

But...it costs roughly $60 (unless you buy it used, that is).

The issue I see is that this specific processor isn't going to bring that much more to anything, even WOFF, compared to the increase you're going to get from a (much better) GPU.

Any of the other CPUs in that list are rated to use another 11 watts (65 vs 54) and, if you're already adding a more powerful GPU, I'd be very concerned about power. Even a measly 11 watts more.

So - if your money isn't super tight and you want to upgrade the CPU, sure. But I'd suggest doing the GPU first, and see what you think about that by itself. You can always change CPUs later - although, again, I'd seriously question how much difference the one option you have is going to make.

Now, as I mentioned before: If we consider upgrading the power supply, that would allow much more room for GPU and more powerful CPUs. But, again, as I mentioned above - by the time you do all that, you've tied up quite a sum in upgrades. If it's me, I'd ditch the HP and move to a normal sized gaming setup, so future upgrades won't be this problematic.

I hope you don't take offense to that level of honesty, and I'm sorry if all this is a bit overwhelming.

#4515220 - 04/07/20 09:47 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
If it's me, I'd ditch the HP and move to a normal sized gaming setup, so future upgrades won't be this problematic.

I hope you don't take offense to that level of honesty, and I'm sorry if all this is a bit overwhelming.



I have to agree with kksnowbear's comments and i personnally dont believe your going to get the level of performance that you want and deserve Jake without having to change PSU,GPU and CPU..i know its a ballache pal.

fwiw what kind of rig did you play WOFF on before this new HP Jake? did it give you the performance you wanted? it may help in your decision. Also how long have you had the HP if you don't mind me asking


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#4515222 - 04/07/20 09:59 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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The recommendation for 300 watt PSU is - like most - overrated. It's based partly on the fact that many people buy cheap power supplies that (even if rated 300W) wouldn't actually deliver that in a million years. Also, most people let their PCs get way too dirty - and heat is a major factor in 'derating' output power of a PSU. Basically, if I know it's going to require X, and then I double X in my recommendation, then I know as a design engineer you shouldn't have a problem even with an old, dirty, cheap power supply (though sometimes, people still do have problems...bad connectors, power supply is already bad, etc).

Here's the simple math: The unit has a 180W power supply in it right now. It is therefore impossible for this unit to require more than 180W - it wouldn't run if that were true.

The 1030 GPU has a 30 watt "TDP" (that's "Thermal Design Power"), meaning it draws a max of 30 watts (this may vary depending on the exact design). What I can tell you, for absolute certain, is that a card that does not have an auxiliary 6- or 8-pin PCIe power connector cannot, by spec, draw more than 75W. That means that, with a 300W recommendation, they're assuming the balance of the system draws 225W - which the OP's SFF HP does not, because - as we know - it only has a 180W PSU.

So, we can add a 30 watt GPU to a machine that's never using more than 180W...and, at most, the combination would never draw more than 210w. (For those counting, the secret is that the unit wasn't already using the full 180 watts before the GPU is added; I'm guessing only about 150W if that...people also tend to overrate power supply wattage, too) .

And, the link I posted above is a guy who actually put a 30w GT 1030 in one of these machines and reported it worked without incident. Definitely be worth the legwork, but as I mentioned I would bet there's a ton of others like him online, doing the same upgrade because they're stuck in the same boat.

Now, I'd definitely say it's pushing the limits of what that PSU can handle, and I'd think twice about adding anything else (I'm pretty sure I said all that already). The truth is, there's just very little else that can be done in this set of circumstances.

Like I said, if it were me, I wouldn't use one of these SFF machines for gaming at all. But that's where the thread started; that's the hand that was dealt in this case.

EDIT: To be clear I am not saying you wouldn't be happy with just adding the 1030 card, nor that you have to ditch the HP. I believe the 1030 card may well be worth the $90 or so it costs, given that you're accustomed to using the integrated 610 graphics. I don't think it's worth changing the CPU at this juncture. I'd only consider ditching the HP if the upgrade costs were going to exceed the $90 cost of the 1030 card. I just wouldn't spend any more than that trying to upgrade it - if the $90 won't put you where you want to be, you should probably consider starting over. Then again, if it were me, I'd honestly not have set out to use a machine like these SFF units for gaming - just being honest.


Last edited by kksnowbear; 04/07/20 10:09 PM.
#4515224 - 04/07/20 10:09 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: kksnowbear]  
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kksnowbear, I wouldn't want anything but your full honesty. I asked for advise and I expect just that, Honest advise.

So, what would be your advise to me on buying a new gaming system? Could I get a good system for around $1,000?

Last edited by jakethescot1; 04/07/20 10:18 PM.
#4515225 - 04/07/20 10:14 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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I appreciate your understanding smile

If it's not asking too much, may I inquire as to your location? Nothing too specific - for example, I'm just northeast of metro Atlanta.

#4515226 - 04/07/20 10:18 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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Missouri.

#4515228 - 04/07/20 10:19 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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Ahh, OK thanks.

#4515229 - 04/07/20 10:27 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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Originally Posted by jakethescot1
kksnowbear, I wouldn't want anything but your full honesty. I asked for advise and I expect just that, Honest advise.

So, what would be your advise to me on buying a new gaming system? Could I get a good system for around $1,000?



Sorry, I think I missed that last question.

Yes. Especially if you're even a little flexible, you can get a fairly decent machine for that. Less, even, TBH. Few questions: Does it have to be "brand name" (Dell, HP, etc...)? Does it have to be brand new (assuming of course, there's a warranty, support, etc)?

#4515234 - 04/07/20 10:51 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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No, it doesn't have to be a brand name, or new.

#4515235 - 04/07/20 10:53 PM Re: New graphics card needed [Re: jakethescot1]  
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OK, great. Check PMs smile

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