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#4514710 - 04/05/20 04:41 AM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: Nimits]  
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Originally Posted by Nimits

I am not sure if that was directed at me, and I cannot speak for others, but it is not my suggestion that Fauci or other leaders at CDC or NIH (or FDA) are corrupt (at least in reference to the current crisis). I believe they are advocating what they honestly think are the best solutions to the problem; I am however concerned the medical and scientific establishment, like most experts, are narrowly focused on the aspect of the problem set they best understand (slowing the spread of the China virus), and do not fully comprehend the grave and dangerous probable long (or even short) term consequences of the policies they are advising.


No, my statement was not aimed at you. Your comments have been very reasonable and the concerns you have expressed totally valid.
There are countless examples of drugs that were effective in vitro but totally failed when used in vivo; that worked in cell cultures or in specially bred mouse lineages but that failed to work in clinical trials on human beings.
Again, there are many many possible candidates for effective antiviral therapies out there. The trials need to be done as quickly and as reliably as they can so that they may still provide us with accurate data or additional vital time will be lost.

This pandemic frankly has me scared for myself, for my family, and of course for our nation and the world in general. In addition to the many lives lost among all age groups, there may be long lasting serious health effects among survivors as well. And we may get through this period only to find ourselves in a devastating economic depression with millions jobless and impoverished. The effects of this pandemic are likely to be profound and long lasting.
The sooner we get effective treatments and a vaccine the better. The trick is how to balance the need for haste with the need to get accurate results. Numerous small scale trials will be necessary. Smaller trials are less likely to generate valid results, but I do believe they can be used to point the way to larger scale trials on a graduated basis.

But also beware of people loudly touting miracle cures. Past experience has taught me to take these claims with a healthy grain of salt no matter how much I want to believe them.


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36
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#4514712 - 04/05/20 04:56 AM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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I'd avoid too much salt. It is linked to hypertension which has a co-morbidity with SARS-Cov-2

#4514725 - 04/05/20 09:20 AM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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This is why I don't trust Fauci. Back in 2013 he was all for an existing, yet unproven drug combo for MERS. A far deadlier coronavirus. Read his comments about the drug in this USA Today article.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eatment-for-new-sars-like-virus/2091443/

Couple of quotes:


"We don't have to start designing new drugs," a process that takes years, Fauci says. "The next time someone comes into an emergency room in Qatar or Saudi Arabia, you would have drugs that are readily available. And at least you would have some data."

Even though the treatment hasn't gone through definitive trials, Fauci says, "if I were a physician in a hospital and someone were dying, rather than do nothing, you can see if these work."



So I still wonder, what motive does he have to be less emphatic about the hydroxy combo today?


"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#4514912 - 04/06/20 05:31 AM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
This is why I don't trust Fauci. Back in 2013 he was all for an existing, yet unproven drug combo for MERS. A far deadlier coronavirus. Read his comments about the drug in this USA Today article.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eatment-for-new-sars-like-virus/2091443/

Couple of quotes:


"We don't have to start designing new drugs," a process that takes years, Fauci says. "The next time someone comes into an emergency room in Qatar or Saudi Arabia, you would have drugs that are readily available. And at least you would have some data."

Even though the treatment hasn't gone through definitive trials, Fauci says, "if I were a physician in a hospital and someone were dying, rather than do nothing, you can see if these work."



So I still wonder, what motive does he have to be less emphatic about the hydroxy combo today?


I don't know all the details of this offhand. I know that the mortality rate for MERS was approximately 34% of all affected which is extraordinarily high and the two drugs mentioned in your article were proven antivirals with known activity against Hepatitis C. Hydroxychloroquine has been shown to reduce viral loads in cell cultures but results in human trials against influenza, Ebola, and Dengue fever have not been impressive, if not outright failures. Also, the recent preliminary French study regarding use of hydroxychloroquine against SARS-CoV-2 had such severe methodological flaws as to be basically worthless and I would not use it as a basis to recommend that medication. Let's hope better run rapid trials show hydroxychloroquine to be effective. That would be a game changer and a godsend.


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36
#4514914 - 04/06/20 07:02 AM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: Docjonel]  
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Originally Posted by Docjonel
Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
This is why I don't trust Fauci. Back in 2013 he was all for an existing, yet unproven drug combo for MERS. A far deadlier coronavirus. Read his comments about the drug in this USA Today article.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eatment-for-new-sars-like-virus/2091443/

Couple of quotes:


"We don't have to start designing new drugs," a process that takes years, Fauci says. "The next time someone comes into an emergency room in Qatar or Saudi Arabia, you would have drugs that are readily available. And at least you would have some data."

Even though the treatment hasn't gone through definitive trials, Fauci says, "if I were a physician in a hospital and someone were dying, rather than do nothing, you can see if these work."



So I still wonder, what motive does he have to be less emphatic about the hydroxy combo today?


I don't know all the details of this offhand. I know that the mortality rate for MERS was approximately 34% of all affected which is extraordinarily high and the two drugs mentioned in your article were proven antivirals with known activity against Hepatitis C. Hydroxychloroquine has been shown to reduce viral loads in cell cultures but results in human trials against influenza, Ebola, and Dengue fever have not been impressive, if not outright failures. Also, the recent preliminary French study regarding use of hydroxychloroquine against SARS-CoV-2 had such severe methodological flaws as to be basically worthless and I would not use it as a basis to recommend that medication. Let's hope better run rapid trials show hydroxychloroquine to be effective. That would be a game changer and a godsend.


You realize you're debating against politics, religion, and ideology here and not actual science?

#4514915 - 04/06/20 07:09 AM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
This is why I don't trust Fauci. Back in 2013 he was all for an existing, yet unproven drug combo for MERS. A far deadlier coronavirus. Read his comments about the drug in this USA Today article.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eatment-for-new-sars-like-virus/2091443/

Couple of quotes:


"We don't have to start designing new drugs," a process that takes years, Fauci says. "The next time someone comes into an emergency room in Qatar or Saudi Arabia, you would have drugs that are readily available. And at least you would have some data."

Even though the treatment hasn't gone through definitive trials, Fauci says, "if I were a physician in a hospital and someone were dying, rather than do nothing, you can see if these work."



So I still wonder, what motive does he have to be less emphatic about the hydroxy combo today?

because you can go BLIND, also a few percentage of people reacted to it

#4514925 - 04/06/20 09:15 AM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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But Fauci continues to suggest he can't recommend Hydroxy because the data is anecdotal.

Every day there are loads of new anecdotal evidence pouring in from around the world that hydroxy is working.
Stories like this one are flooding social media:

https://abc7.com/health/la-doctor-seeing-success-with-hydroxychloroquine-to-treat-covid-19/6079864/

We can pass this off as farce and whatnot, but at some point one has to wonder why all these doctors would be making stuff up. Don't we trust our doctors as the gentleman stated we should?

I trust first hand accounts from doctors on the front line.


"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#4514939 - 04/06/20 12:01 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/03/didier-raoult-hydroxychloroquine-plaquenil.html

We have here in France the same controversy...anddon't be fooled by his look of druid or wizard, he speaks with reason and care and he is one of the best communicable diseases expert in the world and works with a high experienced team of university searchers and physicians ...people in Marseilles are medically treated his way with much better results than anywhere else in France.


"Anyone can shoot you down if you don't see him coming but it takes a wonderfully good Hun to bag a Camel if you're expecting him."
Tom Cundall.
#4514976 - 04/06/20 05:06 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Originally Posted by Blade_RJ



because you can go BLIND, also a few percentage of people reacted to it


Some people die from penicillin, I had my childhood baby sitter die when she was injected with her first chemo treatment, literally dead within 5 minutes. I went to college with a girl who had routine surgery and died on the operating table from the anesthesia.

The military gives that stuff out like candy, I have my pills still and I plan on giving them to my parents if they get sick.

You have yet to address why the overwhelming majority of doctors worldwide swear by it.

At some point, the suicides from economic collapse and other costs will outweigh the cost of a disease that kills less than the flu.


Keep Calm and Check Canopy

There are no ex-paratroopers, only ones off jump status

Learn Economics at:
http://www.mises.org
Carthago delenda est
#4514983 - 04/06/20 05:26 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Gov.Cuomo has now stated that Hydroxy appears to be having positive results. And I'm sure he's hearing that information from doctors on the front lines.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...l-drug-in-new-york-hospitals-anecdotally


I wish politics did not make its way into this, but it did, and it was disgusting.


"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#4515059 - 04/07/20 02:34 AM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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This article brings up an interesting point as to why ventilators aren't working well:

https://archive.is/ONUmi

As for the validity--I question the author as they are self-described as not an MD. They also mention chloroquine "binding with DNA" when covid has RNA, so I question the last portion the most. The first half is interesting, though.


As a counterpoint, this is far more credible:

https://www.asbmb.org/asbmb-today/science/032820/why-scientists-are-studying-if-chloroquine-could-t


And supports the ACE2 pathway theory as to how it prevents Covid from hijacking cells. My initial thoughts when I first learned of chloroquine and how it should work is supported by this second article.

The first I remain suspect of and supplied a link only for those looking for further theory.

Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 04/07/20 02:47 AM.
#4515095 - 04/07/20 11:29 AM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo


I wish politics did not make its way into this, but it did, and it was disgusting.



It's an election year so thus anything and everything that can be used to gain an advantage over the opposing side will be exploited to the fullest. It's human nature.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 04/07/20 11:30 AM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4515099 - 04/07/20 12:02 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by TerribleTwo


I wish politics did not make its way into this, but it did, and it was disgusting.



It's an election year so thus anything and everything that can be used to gain an advantage over the opposing side will be exploited to the fullest. It's human nature.



Are you guys serious? Politics? Turn on world news outside the US and tell me that it's an election year for the other 100+ countries affected by this virus. UK prime minister went into ICU yesterday... politics? Amazing?

Last edited by orbyxP; 04/07/20 12:06 PM.
#4515100 - 04/07/20 12:05 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: orbyxP]  
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Originally Posted by orbyxP


Are you guys serious? Politics? Turn on world news outside the US and tell me that it's an election year for the other 100+ countries affected by this virus.



Did you fail basic reading comprehension class in school? I was responding to Terrible Two's comments about what is happening with Cuomo and NY. Foreign countries do not enter the equation in this case.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4515102 - 04/07/20 12:10 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Nope. Global problem. Not politics was my point.

#4515105 - 04/07/20 12:26 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Yeah I don't know what's happening polically across the globe.

But here in the US, politics have played a huge factor in the expediency of getting a possible treatment for covid to the front lines.


"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#4515125 - 04/07/20 02:24 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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In a republic, things get done via politics. It is often ugly, but nonetheless a feature rather than a bug.

From a recent Schlicter opinion piece I linked down in PWEC:

Quote
Adults accept risk when balancing various interests. The idea that “It’s not worth one life” is childish and stupid. We have cars. Cars kill 30K people a year. We accept that risk. What’s the proper risk balancing for the Chinese coronavirus? Well, we as citizens need to figure that out. That process is called “politics.” That’s why whenever anyone tells you that “This is no time for politics,” they really mean they don’t want you to have any input into the decision. Without politics, you have a dictatorship, and that seems to be the unspoken theme of a growing number of elected officials and others.

But Americans are not good at being bossed around – [snip]

America is really run by consent. When we citizens agree that a policy was duly enacted through the proper processes and makes some semblance of sense, we obey voluntarily. Our tax system is essentially voluntary – it depends on people being generally honest. Sure, there are audits after, but while most people may grumble about the rates, paying our share is legit and so we generally try to figure out what we owe under the law and pay it. Have you ever driven at 3 am and seen people stop at STOP signs at empty intersections? It’s a legit law, so we accept it and obey it instead of having to have a cop right there to force us. Having lived on a couple of other continents, I can assure you that is not how every country works.


Do not take the above as me aiming it at anybody in here. My intent in posting it was just to emphasize that while we may not like watching the sausage getting made, the end product sausage is useful, and the ugly production process is how we get it.

As distasteful as I find some of the political discourse these days, I remain thankful to live in a country that has competing ideas and solutions. Ultimately, the people have their say.

#4515131 - 04/07/20 02:53 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Something that hasn't been discussed here yet, I don't believe...

These deaths aren't like humanely putting your pet down, and even surviving can be hell. I've read some accounts by survivors younger than me who had a brutal reaction to Coronavirus.

Your joints and body ache like you're being stabbed, you get a miserable high fever and a cough that doesn't give relief as you begin drowning in your own fluids. You'll probably make it but with possible lung damage. And if you're obese with no cardio fitness, it's even worse as the excess fat presses down on your weak lungs. Hope you don't smoke.

This can happen to any one of us, although the odds for having such a bad reaction is low. Personally, I'd rather wait it out as long as possible (and luckily I can), although no one knows a timeline yet to business as usual.



The rusty wire that holds the cork that keeps the anger in
Gives way and suddenly it’s day again
The sun is in the east
Even though the day is done
Two suns in the sunset, hmph
Could be the human race is run
#4515139 - 04/07/20 03:39 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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This thread was about the drug combo or other curatives, not politics.

Can we please keep it that way? There are plenty of other threads on here with folks touting their political opinions.

This thread could be a valuable resource if a member gets sick.

#4515162 - 04/07/20 05:43 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: CyBerkut]  
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Originally Posted by CyBerkut
In a republic, things get done via politics. It is often ugly, but nonetheless a feature rather than a bug.

From a recent Schlicter opinion piece I linked down in PWEC:

Quote
Adults accept risk when balancing various interests. The idea that “It’s not worth one life” is childish and stupid. We have cars. Cars kill 30K people a year. We accept that risk. What’s the proper risk balancing for the Chinese coronavirus? Well, we as citizens need to figure that out. That process is called “politics.” That’s why whenever anyone tells you that “This is no time for politics,” they really mean they don’t want you to have any input into the decision. Without politics, you have a dictatorship, and that seems to be the unspoken theme of a growing number of elected officials and others.

But Americans are not good at being bossed around – [snip]

America is really run by consent. When we citizens agree that a policy was duly enacted through the proper processes and makes some semblance of sense, we obey voluntarily. Our tax system is essentially voluntary – it depends on people being generally honest. Sure, there are audits after, but while most people may grumble about the rates, paying our share is legit and so we generally try to figure out what we owe under the law and pay it. Have you ever driven at 3 am and seen people stop at STOP signs at empty intersections? It’s a legit law, so we accept it and obey it instead of having to have a cop right there to force us. Having lived on a couple of other continents, I can assure you that is not how every country works.


Do not take the above as me aiming it at anybody in here. My intent in posting it was just to emphasize that while we may not like watching the sausage getting made, the end product sausage is useful, and the ugly production process is how we get it.

As distasteful as I find some of the political discourse these days, I remain thankful to live in a oountry that has competing ideas and solutions. Ultimately, the people have their say.



+1

Great post


"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which The Party is always right." - George Orwell, 1984
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