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#4514357 - 04/03/20 02:19 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
I do find it intriguing that the media will scour the planet to find that one guy who dies from something, while ignoring the 99.9% who don't. I don't have a theory on why it happens this way, other than creating a headline that will turn heads. Imagine for a moment if someone died from drinking too much beer.... Oh wait.

We have 70 years of safety on this drug. People with lupos and arthritis have been on it for decades.



I don't think that's what happened in this case though. The guy saw the drug in news headlines, and then tried to ingest fish tank cleaner because it contained the same chemical. The media didn't highlight this to bring the effectiveness of the drug into question, but more likely so that other people didn't make the same mistake and try to self medicate with a product not intended for use in humans.


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#4514368 - 04/03/20 02:56 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Doctors are not well informed of virus or drug mechanics like scientists. For new inflections I don't trust any doctor to determine what drug works unless they were former scientists or research oriented pharmacists.

Doctors are good at regurgitating known treatments for known diseases.

Last edited by orbyxP; 04/03/20 03:00 PM.
#4514381 - 04/03/20 03:46 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
I do find it intriguing that the media will scour the planet to find that one guy who dies from something, while ignoring the 99.9% who don't. I don't have a theory on why it happens this way, other than creating a headline that will turn heads.
...


Ayup. "If it bleeds, it leads!"

#4514383 - 04/03/20 03:52 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: orbyxP]  
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Originally Posted by orbyxP
Doctors are not well informed of virus or drug mechanics like scientists. For new inflections I don't trust any doctor to determine what drug works unless they were former scientists or research oriented pharmacists.

Doctors are good at regurgitating known treatments for known diseases.


"Pharmaceutical school."

It is rare I met a doctor that I considered intelligent. Most are slightly above average at best.

#4514399 - 04/03/20 04:59 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st


If a treatment would be showing promise, you'd be hearing about it from credible major sources of information, either government or media.


I am not entirely sure that is true. The medical and scientific bureaucracy, at least in the US, is used to working on timelines of years to approve new treatments, and I hear that business-as-usual attitude (we need large, long term studies to approve treatments, etc.) expressed by Dr Fauci and others. The problem is, of course, (and I am not sure that medical or even some political leaders understand) we do not have years but weeks to figure out something better than economic shutdown and social distancing, or we will face a situation where the present policies do long term harm so severe it outweighs whatever near term benefits they may have gained us.

Moreover, as national medical leadership have stated they believe the best (or only) way of combating the virus is prolonged economic shutdown and suspension of civil liberties, it may be they believe that expressing support for treatments that (in their view) would encourage local leaders to prematurely end shelter at home policies would be counter to the best interest of their policy recommendations and the nation. We already know the "credible major sources" were not entirely truthful about about the use of face masks when it came to telling people they were not a net benefit for the general public (not true) when the real policy goal was to ensure hospitals had a sufficient supply (due to China hording the world's production).


Last edited by Nimits; 04/03/20 05:08 PM.
#4514405 - 04/03/20 05:05 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: Nimits]  
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Originally Posted by Nimits


The problem is, of course, (and what I am not sure that medical or even some political leaders are understanding) is we do not have years but weeks to figure out something better than economic shutdown and social distancing, or we will face a situation where the present policies do long term harm so severe it outweighs whatever near term benefits we may have gained.


Agree. As I have said before, the majority of folks are affected very little....a fever and some cough maybe and that's about it for most cases. Clear direction should be given to those at high risk and the rest of the population returns to normal activity. Dealing with the high risk population to keep them from getting infected is really what it should be all about. I'm sure there are people who are smart enough to figure out how this can be accomplished without ruining the world economy.

On a similar note, there are probably other events that kill way more people (flu, accidents, etc...), but they don't have the short term impact of overwhelming healthcare systems like this current disease.

Last edited by orbyxP; 04/03/20 05:14 PM.
#4514415 - 04/03/20 05:17 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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True about the Dr Fauci types. I've yet to hear him say something like this, "we want... No we need to find a stopgap cure right now, to the best of our ability,.and we are kicking in high gear to find a temporary solution to combat covid using existing drugs and or new drug therapies. We need to do this and are doing this until a vaccine is available."

This kind of attitude is what's missing from Fauci. And it leaves me a.bit suspicous to his motives.

We can do both.


"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#4514475 - 04/03/20 09:07 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Originally Posted by orbyxP
Doctors are not well informed of virus or drug mechanics like scientists. For new inflections I don't trust any doctor to determine what drug works unless they were former scientists or research oriented pharmacists.

Doctors are good at regurgitating known treatments for known diseases.


"Pharmaceutical school."

It is rare I met a doctor that I considered intelligent. Most are slightly above average at best.




Physician here.
I don't appreciate those remarks Mr_Blastman. Blanket statements like that do not reflect well on those posting them.

I'm pretty busy at the moment as you can imagine. Reliable data on all of this is scarce. The media and politicians are touting any possible cure to a desperate public no matter how scant or questionable the evidence.
It's simply the truth that in situations like this many of the early anecdotal reports will be found to lack scientific credibility when more rigorous studies are performed.
The original French study regarding hydrochlorquine that has been widely touted and mentioned by President Trump was a joke in terms of its methodology, if not outright fraudulent. Several grievous flaws that totally invalidate its conclusions have been pointed out. The main researcher, Dr. Didier Raould, was banned from publishing in the journal of the American Society for Microbiology for falsifying results. Other researchers have discovered that his lab Photoshopped electrophoresis gels to get the results he desired in studies.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ar...cin-an-effective-treatment-for-covid-19/
https://forbetterscience.com/2020/0...-raoult-to-save-the-world-from-covid-19/


This does NOT invalidate the studies being done by other labs, including the studies ongoing in China. I do hope that hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine are proven to be effective treatments as much as anybody else does. Believe me, all of my colleagues here on the front lines do. But in my decades in practice I have seen many touted miracle cures for many conditions that never panned out or made it out of the laboratory. There is no Big Pharma conspiracy against it. And in desperate times when people are dying I would not fault anyone for trying these meds- in the lack of any other option I would use them on my patients as well, if need be. And in time, which we are currently in short supply of, more rigorous studies will give a better idea of whether these treatments are truly effective. Let us pray that they are. Just remember that hydroxychloroquine was shown to have effective antiviral properties in vitro in the past, but this did NOT translate to effective in vivo properties. When tested against the influenza virus, Ebola, and Dengue fever it was NOT effective at all.

So, I can not state with any authoritative evidence that it works better against SARS-CoV-2 than it does against those viruses. At this time it is all we have, for whatever that is worth. Azithromycin, an antibiotic, may also have antiviral properties as it prevents acidification of the lysosomes that act like an intracellular digestive system and are crucial to viral replication. However, anyone who authoritatively declares the effectiveness of these treatments may eventually be shown to be right, but they currently lack the evidence to back up such definitive statements. I don't want us barking up the wrong tree and flocking to a treatment that ends up not being effective at the expense of ones that are.


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36
#4514477 - 04/03/20 09:14 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
True about the Dr Fauci types. I've yet to hear him say something like this, "we want... No we need to find a stopgap cure right now, to the best of our ability,.and we are kicking in high gear to find a temporary solution to combat covid using existing drugs and or new drug therapies. We need to do this and are doing this until a vaccine is available."

This kind of attitude is what's missing from Fauci. And it leaves me a.bit suspicous to his motives.

We can do both.


Why are you suspicious of his motives?
Do you have any basis for calling into question his integrity?
Frankly, as a physician, that kind of statement pisses me off.
What makes you think they are proceeding on a purely business as usual basis and not speeding things up as fast as they can without totally undermining the validity of the results of such trials?


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36
#4514486 - 04/03/20 10:10 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Thanks for the info Docj.

Everybody is a little extra stressed right now. Being out of work doesn't help many much either.

Nor does, in your case, being overworked in a life and death environment.

Thanks for you efforts and stay as safe as you can sir.


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#4514491 - 04/03/20 10:26 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: Docjonel]  
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Originally Posted by Docjonel
Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
True about the Dr Fauci types. I've yet to hear him say something like this, "we want... No we need to find a stopgap cure right now, to the best of our ability,.and we are kicking in high gear to find a temporary solution to combat covid using existing drugs and or new drug therapies. We need to do this and are doing this until a vaccine is available."

This kind of attitude is what's missing from Fauci. And it leaves me a.bit suspicous to his motives.

We can do both.


Why are you suspicious of his motives?
Do you have any basis for calling into question his integrity?
Frankly, as a physician, that kind of statement pisses me off.
What makes you think they are proceeding on a purely business as usual basis and not speeding things up as fast as they can without totally undermining the validity of the results of such trials?



Is there any evidence from Dr Fauci that indicates he trying to speed things up? So far he's spending quite a.bit of time trying to convince people that a certain drug doesnt do what several doctors are saying it does.

I find that behaviour very odd.


"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#4514493 - 04/03/20 10:32 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: Docjonel]  
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Originally Posted by Docjonel

What makes you think they are proceeding on a purely business as usual basis


The public interviews and statements I have watched and read from Dr Fauci and other members of CDC and NIH.

#4514501 - 04/03/20 11:32 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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He's saying what I would say which is that the medical profession can't say a drug is effective without adequate proof. The entire system is based on making sure we can have faith in what the medical profession is giving out to people and even then it's not always successful.
Fauci is not in charge of the FDA which is in the process of approving sped up trials of different agents.

But you have no basis whatsoever to impugn the guy's integrity. You are implying, no basically stating, that he is corrupt in some way.


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36
#4514527 - 04/04/20 03:03 AM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Don't worry Docj, most of us don't have such ill conceived notions about physicians.


“Together, let us take up the challenge to reawaken America's religious and moral heart, recognizing that a deep and abiding faith in God is the rock upon which this great Nation was founded.” - Ronald Reagan, May 4, 1982
#4514579 - 04/04/20 01:10 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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As to that Fox News interview about a cure it belongs in this scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUh5IShNwXo


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4514603 - 04/04/20 03:00 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: Docjonel]  
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Originally Posted by Docjonel
He's saying what I would say which is that the medical profession can't say a drug is effective without adequate proof. The entire system is based on making sure we can have faith in what the medical profession is giving out to people and even then it's not always successful.
Fauci is not in charge of the FDA which is in the process of approving sped up trials of different agents.

But you have no basis whatsoever to impugn the guy's integrity. You are implying, no basically stating, that he is corrupt in some way.


I am not sure if that was directed at me, and I cannot speak for others, but it is not my suggestion that Fauci or other leaders at CDC or NIH (or FDA) are corrupt (at least in reference to the current crisis). I believe they are advocating what they honestly think are the best solutions to the problem; I am however concerned the medical and scientific establishment, like most experts, are narrowly focused on the aspect of the problem set they best understand (slowing the spread of the China virus), and do not fully comprehend the grave and dangerous probable long (or even short) term consequences of the policies they are advising.

#4514663 - 04/04/20 07:38 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: Nimits]  
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Originally Posted by Nimits
CDC or NIH (or FDA)


All perform different roles, there is some overlap, but generally....

NIH/universities = research ... show proof that something works in the lab

FDA = need proof it works in people before approval

CDC/HHS = guidelines +/- policies ... based on proof that it works in people.

Physicians = don't need proof that it works, but don't set the policies or guidelines.



Last edited by orbyxP; 04/04/20 07:41 PM.
#4514664 - 04/04/20 07:38 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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New study, kills covid-19 in 48 hrs. I'd imagine there's many existent drugs that will be effective.


https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/anti-parasitic-drug-kills-covid-19-in-lab-c-955457



"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#4514668 - 04/04/20 07:46 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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More good news there.


WARNING: This post contains opinions produced in a facility which also occasionally processes fact products.
#4514673 - 04/04/20 09:33 PM Re: Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Viruses are not alive. You cannot kill them... only denature their protein. Soap and water is sufficient for that, and it does it in far less than 48 hours.

There is an element of error, or #%&*$# in any account of a drug which 'in the lab' kills a virus. Quite apart from the difference between action in laboratory and in a human you want to keep alive... There are a great many things which can kill bacteria or denature proteins in viruses which are not good for people (or indeed which can also kill them).

Not that looking isn't good. The hope is that something will come of the search for a solution... but there is a reason for the caution of medical professionals in signing off on a 'cure' before there is scrutiny of the methods, outcomes and risks.

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