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#4508155 - 02/23/20 02:41 AM Command  
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I'm not sure where this should go, it's a lot more than just Naval. Any suggestions... I just got it.


"You'll never take me alive" said he,
And his ghost may be heard if you pass by that billabong
"Who'll come a Waltzing Matilda with me?"



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#4508310 - 02/24/20 06:46 PM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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Originally Posted by Mad Max
Any suggestions...


Play it for a bit, then come back and write a review telling us what you think? smile

Is this CMANO you are talking about or something else?


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#4508497 - 02/26/20 01:14 AM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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It's the new engine, Command Modern.


"You'll never take me alive" said he,
And his ghost may be heard if you pass by that billabong
"Who'll come a Waltzing Matilda with me?"



#4508507 - 02/26/20 03:02 AM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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Correction. MNO2 is nothing more than a continuation of the same garbage engine and the same worthless UI.


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#4508562 - 02/26/20 07:43 PM Re: Command [Re: Herman]  
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Originally Posted by Herman
MNO2 is nothing more than a continuation of the same garbage.



Magnesium dioxide? Come on man, it's a good compound biggrin

Just joking, why do you say this Herman, can you be more specific about what you don't like about it? How is the engine garbage? Don't bother with the UI, I can imagine it has it's limitations, as most do, and besides, there's a good deal of subjectivity when it comes to these things. But what about the engine, and I assume the combat simulation it dishes out, is bad?


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#4508615 - 02/27/20 09:01 AM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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The AI stands for Assured Idiocy or Absolute Imbecile. The AI is so easily spoofed, that it is a complete joke. Here is a video of the 'most difficult and most complex' scenario from the Northern Inferno release from MNO and all I had to do was fly around the predictable defences for a childishly easy victory. Sheesh.



The AI has not improved a whit in MNO2. In fact, many victims report that it may actually be dumber than the original MNO. Hard to believe for most games, but eminently plausible for MNO2. sigh


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#4508639 - 02/27/20 01:59 PM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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Thanks for that. Single player games need good AI so that there is a challenge.

I was just curious. I have a cursory interest in this genre. I haven't tried it mainly due to the steep pricing, but if it lacks a competent AI opponent I'll at least wait until that changes.

I appreciate the video, but I'll have to take your word for what it shows. It's four hours long.


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#4508649 - 02/27/20 04:21 PM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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Sorry about the length of the video, I had previously recorded shorter videos showing the horrendous operational nature of MNO. However, I did not realize how badly short videos fail to show the absolute tedious nature of this horrible game. So, I recorded that video in Real Time, to more accurately show viewers how absolutely boring the game is. Just be thankful that you can FFwd through it or just skip to the end. I had to live every miserable godawful second of those four hours with this horrid game. frown


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#4508650 - 02/27/20 04:37 PM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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I appreciate your candor, and no need to apologize for the length of the video. Just a bit too long for me to watch. And especially if is indeed as terrible as you say. It's like a commercial I see often on TV where one character is saying ' this tastes terrible, you gotta try it'.

And the other one says 'if it's terrible why would I want to try it?'

I did a quick search for reviews and only found a couple of them, which were more positive about it. For me to take this plunge in to such an investment in time and money I need to see something like 'the pinnacle of modern operational wargames' or 'a new standard' or that sort of thing. I also realize that I could like it, horses for courses so to speak. I just don't see making this move at this point.

What's your impression Max now that you've had some time with it?


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#4508686 - 02/27/20 10:37 PM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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I'm still doing the tutorials just now, but it seems OK. Reminds me a lot of Harpoon 2 and 3 with more eye candy. Certainly doesn't seem to deserve the names that Herman is using, but no doubt I'll find out. I don't have a lot of game time, and progress is slow on the tutorials, but it seems fun.


"You'll never take me alive" said he,
And his ghost may be heard if you pass by that billabong
"Who'll come a Waltzing Matilda with me?"



#4508718 - 02/28/20 01:44 AM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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I own it and enjoyed it for a while but never got deeply into it.

I've read many reviews on CMANO, not one came close to panning it as Herman does. He seems a bit too personal and biased to me, like someone involved with the game shot his puppy or something.


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#4508721 - 02/28/20 02:23 AM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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I completely agree with Herman on the interface. It is as bad as he says. When I played it, I found that something like >50% of the time spent, I was trying to overcome the interface instead of playing the game. I don't remember every detail of it, but you will find yourself doing lots of mouse-clicking to enable, disable, then re-enable various options just to get the information you need vs cluttering everything, and you'll be constantly zooming in and out and all over the map to both keep up on what's happening and to command the units. The latter was wonderfully solved by Harpoon ages ago with its custom windows at custom zoom levels, and somehow Harpoon also managed to present information without making it a constant fight of info vs. clutter. But apparently these things were too much to ask of a game released in 2013.

Can't say much on the AI, because I haven't played it enough to comment on it with authority, but to put it this way: I haven't seen anything impressive when I played it. You can try and work around some of the click and zoom fest described above by working with the mission concept, which basically means hand-off to the AI, but you will be back in no time when something happens, because you will certainly do a better job at it than the AI.

To me it is another example of what could have been a good game, ruined by completely unnecessary design flaws you would have thought these people had figured out in primary school - either so to speak, or even literally - before setting out to make a Naval Warfare game of their own.

#4508723 - 02/28/20 02:52 AM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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P.S. I was only telling of my own limited experience with the AI there, but I've watched the crucial parts of Herman's video, and from that it is pretty obvious that there is not much in the way of operational or higher level AI there, if any, and you are basically just playing against scenario design.

#4508726 - 02/28/20 03:13 AM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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So it relies on scripting instead of AI? That's a complaint I have with Combat Mission. The system is too rigid with no ability to react or exploit on the fly. But that's a different type of game.


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#4508730 - 02/28/20 03:40 AM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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Well, at least from the video that is the impression I get. But to be sure, we are talking operational level. There certainly is a tactical AI.

And, you know, I was about to mention Combat Mission, the Cmx2 (or whatever their shortform there is) stuff, and like you, it also bothers me. They're saying scripted plans are much better than handing it to the AI like in their old games, but at the end of the day, what it means is the "operational level" (though in this case, it would be more the grand tactical level) "AI" will only be as good as the scenario designer was at strategy and tactics himself, as well as anticipating the player's moves down the road. Which also limits replayability, because even if the scenario designer did a good job at anticipating (let's leave the whole conundrum of then just doing unexpected things, to offset that, out for now) the player's plan, once you've played the scenario, you know the enemy plan now, so there is no point in playing it again. OK, with the caveat that alternate plans can be scripted and then randomly chosen, but again, that then depends on the time and effort the scenario designer put in, and it's still limited.

And don't get me started on this whole "hand-made maps are better than generated ones" thing. Of course, a pre-planned system cannot work with generated maps, so no wonder the map generator is gone. And lack of a map generator is also good for selling DLC, isn't it. And never mind the old games had a map editor IN ADDITION to the map generator. But you can sell people anything these days with some smooth talk and shiny screenshots.

#4508771 - 02/28/20 01:41 PM Re: Command [Re: heartc]  
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Originally Posted by heartc


And, you know, I was about to mention Combat Mission, the Cmx2 (or whatever their shortform there is) stuff, and like you, it also bothers me. They're saying scripted plans are much better than handing it to the AI like in their old games, but at the end of the day, what it means is the "operational level" (though in this case, it would be more the grand tactical level) "AI" will only be as good as the scenario designer was at strategy and tactics himself, as well as anticipating the player's moves down the road. Which also limits replayability, because even if the scenario designer did a good job at anticipating (let's leave the whole conundrum of then just doing unexpected things, to offset that, out for now) the player's plan, once you've played the scenario, you know the enemy plan now, so there is no point in playing it again.


Quoted for truth. I'm a member on the Batttlefront boards and I have made the same sort of point a few times over there. It's a big weakness, as replayability is so limited as you say. Beyond that, the fact that players are reliant on others to produce their content leaves a huge gap. Limited replayability combined with a lack of content hamstrings the series. I complain about the fact that we are tethered to the supply chain and no tools are given to the player to easily generate his own content. If you've played around with the editor you know what a chore it is to make even the most simple scenario, not to mention campaigns. And even if it were easier, what's the fun in playing something you designed yourself? You have placed all the enemy units and even told them how to behave with triggers and AI plans. It's not fun or challenging when you already know everything about it.

One of the biggest and best CM campaigns is Road to Montebourg for CMBN, by Paper Tiger. He is a pro at this stuff. But even with all of his experience, it took him 800 hours! to make that campaign. Good grief.

I post about the need for some way for players to easily create their own stuff. Some sort of campaign generator is needed. But I also added that without a proper AI, even this would fail to satisfactorily fill the gap. I go on a lot about it here at SimHQ too, such as this post from a couple years ago.

Thanks for the reply Max, it's appreciated. I kinda want to try it to see what I think now. Herman clearly doesn't like this game, Harpoon's his thing and right on. I wonder what I would think of CMO.


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#4508794 - 02/28/20 04:32 PM Re: Command [Re: Mad Max]  
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There´s alot of things that don´t make sense in CMANO´s AI, or to say realistic. The first time I played CMANO was with Northern Inferno, on the first mission I had the OPFOR launch something like two dozen missles at my none escorted AWACS! I was like, really?

Then you have the price tag of CMO, which is really a rehash of CMANO with some fixes. No thanks...

I rather play Harpoon 3, with it´s limited screen resolution.


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#4508803 - 02/28/20 05:44 PM Re: Command [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond

It's a big weakness, as replayability is so limited as you say. Beyond that, the fact that players are reliant on others to produce their content leaves a huge gap. Limited replayability combined with a lack of content hamstrings the series. I complain about the fact that we are tethered to the supply chain and no tools are given to the player to easily generate his own content. If you've played around with the editor you know what a chore it is to make even the most simple scenario, not to mention campaigns. And even if it were easier, what's the fun in playing something you designed yourself? You have placed all the enemy units and even told them how to behave with triggers and AI plans. It's not fun or challenging when you already know everything about it.


Not to drag this thread further off-topic, but on the other hand, this concerns all Wargames and Simulations: The points you raised here are the inherent weaknesses of the "Mission Editor" concept vs. a Mission Generator approach.
It has been my experience that prognoses about the hundreds of scenarios / missions that will be done by the community have only materialized in a few cases, and it greatly depends on a variety of factors, such as size of the community, user-friendliness of the editor, and consistency of the game over time - when it gets updated or changed often, many of the previously done missions will no longer work, which also discourages most people from creating any more. And, as you said, creating missions for yourself is completely pointless - unless the editor allows for many randomization options, and those should be built-in via the editor UI, as opposed to you having to force them in via complicated scripting and trigger combinations. But even then it's still a lot of work, compared to a few mouse-clicks with a Generator.

#4509211 - 03/02/20 06:59 PM Re: Command [Re: heartc]  
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Originally Posted by heartc

and consistency of the game over time - when it gets updated or changed often, many of the previously done missions will no longer work, which also discourages most people from creating any more.


This fits Combat Mission, yes. It's not that the scenarios don't work, but the engine changes fundamentally alter the balance of the scenario. And because of the nature of these scenarios, which are finely tuned to provide a challenge, this can make a difficult scenario impossible, or even the opposite, and now it's too easy. All that playtesting to an inch is essentially invalidated by an engine change. Perhaps an AI could overcome this. Scripting of course cannot.

I'm sure you know this as a CM player. It's frustrating because Battlefront don't care. I mean they care in the compassionate sense, but they clearly either don't think it's an issue, or possibly perhaps, there is nothing they can do. essentially coding themselves in to a corner. Everytime they roll out another late-war (yawn) module with detailed uniforms and obscure vehicles that we will maybe never use, instead of improving the core (and especially content generation) I grow more jaded of the whole affair.

I should be excited about whatever new product they're making, but I am not. I've ignored CMBS, CMFB and CMFI plus the new module. I play CMRT, but have no enthusiasm for the silly-named Fire and Rubble module. I gave them a few names that didn't make a ripple. Not that they should listen to me, but Fire and Rubble? Ugg.

Combat Mission is in desperate need of an overhaul. 20+ years now and I feel like it's not all that much different than it was at the start. It is, but it's subtle. Niche is niche I suppose, but I sure would like to see more ambition from that studio.


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