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#4505156 - 01/27/20 06:03 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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Now news reporting it wasn't his helicopter. Helicopter was owned by Island Express Holding Corp. Had $50M liability limit. Blue Book value on it is like $750K. With tons of upgrades probably $5M. N# was N72EX.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-...-helicopter-with-a-history-in-illinois-5


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#4505164 - 01/27/20 06:55 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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This witness is very well spoken. His words are so concise that I felt I could visualize what happened. Which is more upsetting...



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#4505188 - 01/27/20 10:30 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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Any pilots here?

News this afternoon indicates
Quote
they were VFR initially (in very marginal conditions) and then requested SVFR when BUR went IFR. Eventually got SVFR Cclearance but were running at 184 mph when they turned into terrain. News was asking would you even leave VFR and not just file IFR initially.


I don't understand any of that.

I am not a pilot and the only thing that even come close is Microsoft Flight Simulator and Enemy Engaged.

Anyone here who is a pilot can give it to us in Plain English for those of use who don't speak pilot?

#4505193 - 01/27/20 10:53 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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visual flight rules
special visual flight rules
BUR - Burbank airport
instrument flight rules

easy to find on google


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#4505195 - 01/27/20 11:12 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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He was getting into worse conditions which is why he requested change from VFR to Special VFR which allowed him to fly VFR when the normal ceilings and visibility wouldn’t allow it. That is troubling and not the usual process of getting Special VFR to takeoff in marginal conditions but the airfield has good weather nearby or to fly up through some thin cloud and get on top of the weather. From the terrain and his climbing, it looks like he saw the rising ground and was trying to climb over it. That pushed him from just below the ceiling into it. Then one of two things happened. Either he became spatially disoriented losing sense of directions and balance and went into a diving turn which ended with the crash. Or he recognized that he was getting into worse conditions and did the normal of turn out of it back into the better visibility you just came from. That accounts for his direction change; add to that he may have combined descend from the weather you just climbed up into. Reversal of direction and altitude loss combined to put him into the mountain side.

He was IFR rated, but for some reason did not request IFR and ATC control. That would have been a significant delay to the flight.

Pilot error based on the current info.

What a shame.


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#4505206 - 01/28/20 12:14 AM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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MAYBE that older S-76B was not single pilot IFR rated...

Dunno, just guessing. Ok, reading Seems WAPO says it was single pilot IFR equipped,

Yep, pilot error with extenuating weather thrown in AGAIN...and again...and again... Somebody was in a hurry.



"There's a sucker born every minute."
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#4505212 - 01/28/20 02:57 AM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: oldgrognard]  
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One of the articles I read today said something about the pilot requesting some kind of IFR guidance or radar guidance from ATC, but the ATC replied that the helicopter was currently flying too low for them to assist in that manner.

Originally Posted by oldgrognard
He was getting into worse conditions which is why he requested change from VFR to Special VFR which allowed him to fly VFR when the normal ceilings and visibility wouldn’t allow it. That is troubling and not the usual process of getting Special VFR to takeoff in marginal conditions but the airfield has good weather nearby or to fly up through some thin cloud and get on top of the weather. From the terrain and his climbing, it looks like he saw the rising ground and was trying to climb over it. That pushed him from just below the ceiling into it. Then one of two things happened. Either he became spatially disoriented losing sense of directions and balance and went into a diving turn which ended with the crash. Or he recognized that he was getting into worse conditions and did the normal of turn out of it back into the better visibility you just came from. That accounts for his direction change; add to that he may have combined descend from the weather you just climbed up into. Reversal of direction and altitude loss combined to put him into the mountain side.

He was IFR rated, but for some reason did not request IFR and ATC control. That would have been a significant delay to the flight.

Pilot error based on the current info.

What a shame.


Last edited by WolverineFW; 01/28/20 02:58 AM.
#4505216 - 01/28/20 03:45 AM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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Get there itis is looking like a major contender in this one..

#4505219 - 01/28/20 04:39 AM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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The video proves the pilot had no idea where he was at, all the rest is history. Very SAD.


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#4505338 - 01/28/20 09:39 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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This guy re-create the flight on Google earth



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#4505343 - 01/28/20 11:09 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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If it was so foggy that they couldn't see, why they didn't just go to a higher altitude and hover until the fog clears?


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#4505346 - 01/28/20 11:39 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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I am watching that video Marc posted and listening to the audio recording.

My impression and understanding is each time you leave one area of the city to go into another area, you need special clearance, instructions and change frequency to talk to a different set of ATC.

If flying cars for the masses ever become a reality, that 34 some thousands traffic fatalities from traffic accidents in the USA each year (2018 statistics) is going to look puny.

At the end when they were following the freeway from an altitude of 500 feet and then they tried to get above the mountains that can be as high as 2800 feet.

Looks like while gaining altitude, the pilot made a wrong turn and went left into the mountains instead of going right to continue following the freeway at a higher altitude.


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#4505404 - 01/29/20 12:41 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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If the data on flightaware etc is correct what would cause the rapid decent just before the crash? To me that doesn't look at all like a controlled, intentional flight path. Especially after the climb just prior, it just doesn't make sense that you would climb above the fog and then make a left-hand turn and "dive" back into the fog.


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#4505416 - 01/29/20 02:29 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
If the data on flightaware etc is correct what would cause the rapid decent just before the crash? To me that doesn't look at all like a controlled, intentional flight path. Especially after the climb just prior, it just doesn't make sense that you would climb above the fog and then make a left-hand turn and "dive" back into the fog.

Supposedly he went into cloud above the fog and lost SA..


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4505434 - 01/29/20 04:25 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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I just read the chopper didn't have TAWS.

$13 million price tag and it had no TAWS.


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#4505484 - 01/30/20 12:24 AM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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It was an OLD S-76B.

Current model is the S-76D.

Looks like NO Helicopter or crew was certified IFR in the charter operation.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremy...owed-to-fly-by-instruments/#6cf0ec9726ea



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#4505490 - 01/30/20 12:50 AM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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somewhat relevant:



(caveat: I know this is specifically detailing a dead man's spiral in VFR but he had to have been experiencing the same feeling)

Last edited by Vertigo1; 01/30/20 01:40 AM.

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#4505529 - 01/30/20 01:25 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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Special VFR clearances can be requested in Class B, C, D, and E airspace areas. The flight requirements are to remain clear of clouds and 1 SM visibilty. At night it can only be permitted if the pilot is IFR rated and the aircraft is IFR equipped. This is a moot point since it was daytime. The aircraft does not have to be IFR equipped nor the pilot be IFR rated in the daytime. A special VFR is obtained from the tower, and if the tower is not available, from the appropriate ATC facility.

Now this applies to airplanes, I don't know if it's different for helicopters. Maybe it is but being that helicopters are more maneuverable (ie, they can hover), the rules may be looser than for aircraft.

Radar and comms could also have been blocked by the mountains as they are "line of sight." That might explain why they couldn't continue flight following or communications.

Flight following, BTW, is something VFR aircraft request from approach that adds them to the aircraft that are wanting flight advisories such as traffic, time permitting. The aircraft is given a squawk code on the transponder so they can be easily identified/labelled on the radar and are tracked by ATC.

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#4505556 - 01/30/20 04:30 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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just another case of non ifr pilots crashing when they get into ifr conditions?

ridiculous

how many times does that need to happen... yeesh.

i'm beginning to feel that pilots without a -current- IFR rating with recent currency training/checks probably shouldn't be allowed to carry passengers, ever. and certainly not for a commercial operation.

#4505576 - 01/30/20 06:51 PM Re: Kobe Bryant dies in helicopter crash [Re: Chaz]  
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He was an IFR pilot and if reports are correct he was an IFR instructor. Anyone who gets into IFR conditions (Instrument Meteorological Conditions - IMC) when not ready for it can get into trouble.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_meteorological_conditions

Part of this issue is that the pilot went from VMC to IMC while operating under VFR rules. He was not permitted to fly into the clouds/fog without being on an IFR flight plan or under ATC clearance. He was not under positive ATC control. This is clear by the controllers telling him he was too low for flight following which he was requesting. This means he was too low for solid radar contact. Therefore they could not control him. This is not just a danger for him, but other aircraft. Aircraft flying IFR and/or under ATC control are watched for collision avoidance. He entered conditions that he could not see other aircraft (under VFR the rule is “see and avoid” ). So he became a mid-air collision problem as well as his own danger. He broke VFR rules by entering IMC conditions. His task load was already high and then increased greatly. Despite him being an IFR rated pilot the task load happened quickly and overwhelmed him.

There isn’t a problem with non-IFR pilots carrying passengers.

Don’t get overwrought over an incident in the face of decades of safe flying. It is a unsupportable knee jerk reaction.

I am a VFR pilot with a good deal of IFR training but am not IFR rated. My aircraft is IFR capable. I also have terrain indication, obstacle warning, Traffic Information System in and ADSB-out. I do not violate VMC conditions. I fly with Flight Following often, but must still maintain VFR rules. I have used Special VFR clearance for taking off from an airfield to go to better weather. I would not do any but a very short Special VFR clearance. It means you are already in very dicey conditions and may result in unintentional entering IMC. It is a procedure not to be entered lightly and I have never done it while in the air. When I fly with my instructor friend on board I often practice IFR flying just as a caution and to stay emergency familiar. But I would never fly IMC with my current proficiency. Also by regulation I am not allowed.

The pilot was pushing weather conditions, failed to terminate the flight when he had to get Special VFR, failed to terminate the flight when he could not get Flight Following, and violated regulations by entering IMC without clearance and being on IFR with control.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
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