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#4503765 - 01/14/20 04:47 PM W10 or Linux??  
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lederhosen Offline
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Salute

didn't know where to put this one.

Anyway, W7 is no longer supported. I wouldn't care but my wife does. So I'm being forced to upgrade/change OS in the near furure.
Now I could go W10, but many IT people have said no, go to Linux

Any thoughts???


make mistakes and learn from them

I5 4440 3.1Ghz, Asrock B85m Pro3, Gtx 1060 3GB
#4503773 - 01/14/20 05:20 PM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: lederhosen]  
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I've had no problem with Win10 (professional ed.) on the BootCamp side of my Mac. Just make sure to set the internet connection to "metered" and to set system updates to come in as slowly as possible (allowing for lots of testing at the Microsoft end biggrin ) - preferably choose 365 days for large system updates, and 30 days for security updates. If you want to run the home ed. of Win10 instead, download the program "O&O Shutup10" that allows for manual overriding of several updates that are done/forced automatically in the home ed. There are other manual override tools available but the one indicated here is one of the more user-friendly ones.

In terms of Linux, you will have to install WINE (a Windows compatibility layer) no matter the Linux distro. you are running, and then to install WOFF/WOTR that way - through WINE - if you want to have everything running on the same operating system (with no dual booting). The only user-friendly ed. of Linux that I know of (and tested for myself in VirtualBox several years ago) is Linux Mint (the Ubuntu-based install of Linux Mint, not the Debian-based distro. that they have, since that one is more finicky with updates).

To minimize hassle, I would stick with Win10 - the baked-in antivirus/anti-malware "Windows Defender" program that comes with it is fine, just make sure to load up with relevant security plugins for your web browser of choice (such as AdBlockPlus, Privacy Badger, etc.). If you want a full solution - run VirtualBox on your Win10 install too, and stick Linux Mint into the VirtualBox - that way you can use Linux Mint in VirtualBox for virus-free web browsing, and do everything else on the Win10 side. Seamless and no dual booting that way.

Hope some of the suggestions help with your decision.

Happy flying (and computing),
Von S smile


Last edited by VonS; 01/14/20 05:21 PM. Reason: Fixed typos.
#4503786 - 01/14/20 05:55 PM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: lederhosen]  
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I have been thinking about it a lot recently too. I hate Windows 10 automatic update policy, so I think I will switch to Win 8.1 as the next OS (if necessary). That is also because of better compatibility with older software than W10.

#4503791 - 01/14/20 07:08 PM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: lederhosen]  
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Been running Windows 8.1 for a long time now, partly because of W7 going away, partly because of certain features not being supported in W7 (native UASP for USB3, for example), and partly because of forced updates and other issues with W10.

If you're considering W10, then W8.1 isn't that much more terrible TBH. I've had no troubles at all running various software/games so far. W8.1 is supported for at least another 3 years, if I'm not mistaken, and you can avoid some of the W10 nonsense. Good tips above (and all over online) about avoiding problems with privacy, updates, etc.

Like VonS, and in spite of a deep and long-standing hatred for all that M$ has done to ruin Windows...I'd have to say W10 rather than Linux. The thing is, as popular as it may be with many, Linux still doesn't see the sort of widespread support that Windows does, something M$ knew and exploited long ago. Unfortunately, what this translates to in reality is that there is far, far more software that will run under Windows natively than under Linux. (Due respect to others' knowledge and experience, I personally don't count overlays etc only because they aren't necessarily within technical grasp of most average users).

My $0.02, FWIW - HTH smile


Last edited by kksnowbear; 01/14/20 07:24 PM.
#4503806 - 01/14/20 10:30 PM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: lederhosen]  
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It really depends on what you want to do with the systems and therefore what software you need to run. I run both W10 and Linux at home; Linux an my laptop for most tasks (web, email, document editing, programming, and finances), and W10 on a desktop for GAMES (this is the WOFF forum after all). My wife is running W10 only. This is mainly because of some family genealogy software she uses; but she also uses the same system for her email, web, document editing, etc.

So, if you can do everything you want under Linux, go for it; but if you can't, then @kksnowbear's advice is very relevant.

That's my $0.02.

#4503809 - 01/14/20 10:49 PM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: mandrews]  
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Originally Posted by mandrews
It really depends on what you want to do with the systems and therefore what software you need to run. I run both W10 and Linux at home; Linux an my laptop for most tasks (web, email, document editing, programming, and finances), and W10 on a desktop for GAMES (this is the WOFF forum after all). My wife is running W10 only. This is mainly because of some family genealogy software she uses; but she also uses the same system for her email, web, document editing, etc.

So, if you can do everything you want under Linux, go for it; but if you can't, then @kksnowbear's advice is very relevant.

That's my $0.02.


A well-taken perspective, indeed. I forget that 'productivity' on a PC is much better represented in the non-Windows world than are games. The idea of running a laptop for productivity w/Linux and a desktop just for games is interesting, as well. Something worth considering once I'm no longer able to evade being assimilated biggrin biggrin biggrin

#4503925 - 01/16/20 11:34 AM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: lederhosen]  
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Originally Posted by lederhosen
Salute

didn't know where to put this one.

Anyway, W7 is no longer supported. I wouldn't care but my wife does. So I'm being forced to upgrade/change OS in the near furure.
Now I could go W10, but many IT people have said no, go to Linux

Any thoughts???


I did once installed Linux Mint and I did get bored by, always doing the difficult way for installing drivers, welcome back in time, deja vu MS/DOS. :-(
Now if wanting to go on Win7 you could face security problems, but that can be solved as there is something to read at, Google this “BypassESU” and Mydigitallife forum will be your friend. :-)
But why doing the difficult and illegal way, hook on an extra SSD bigger then 240Gb, cost €30,- and just install the free Linux Mint or wathever on that specific disk and your wife is happy. Now for playing WoFF on your Win7 boot, just disable the internet connection permanently and you are 99% free of any security issue. Banking and others can be safely done on the Linux boot, while that is connected on the internet.




Last edited by dutch; 01/16/20 11:57 AM.
#4504008 - 01/17/20 07:57 AM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: lederhosen]  
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FsFOOT Online content
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FsFOOT  Online Content
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Personally I switched to Linux. I started migrating to Linux before the end of XP updates.

Started with an old secondary machine using Ubuntu then made a Dual Boot using Linux Mint on a laptop given to me that was running Windows 8.1.
See my old page: Got Mint?

But note the Mint version now is up to 19 series - I actually use 18.3 on that same laptop now without Windows and have another laptop running 19.2. actually i should just get the automatic updates to 19.3 which is the latest in that series. I run these series because they are LTS series that is Long Term Support which means updates for 5 years @ an industry standard or now to 2023. Anyway with Mint its no problem to migrate or upgrade so it doesn't matter much but still I recommend LTS versions).

Personally I had np with 8.1 its a fine OS as far as actual performance etc. just the Metro interface is annoying and I had to go through hell to 'lock it down' because of the telemetry, internet connections it makes, etc. All the stuff that totally annoys me. Being a Techie and a security buff helped I actually got it somewhat locked down with a lot of reading and effort.. That was back in 2016. Now its easier there is a lot more programs to deal with that crap - just go to ghacks.net

One day I got locked out of Win 8.1 and since I was already migrating I just stayed on it. Now I no longer run Windows at all.


Also as a matter of preference I use Mate desktop environment, although Cinnamon, an interface developed by Mint team itself is the most widely used and others may well prefer.. The reason I use Mate is its the lighter weight memory with the least amount of release glitches. Sometimes the Cinnamon and others have issues more often. Anyway That seems to have lessened over the years)

When running Linux you can have choices of the Desktop Environments (DE), interface and so forth. Its a large subject but basically all you need to know is KDE or Plasma as its called now - based DE are the heaviests and IMO tend to bog down a system unless you have a new machine lots of RAM and speed and tweak it.
Traditionally Linux systems (especially using a KDE or heav-ish GUIs) have a marked response delay compared to Windows - you have to tweak the DE compositor response time or get used to it. But its less so now in many cases.

Anyway, choosing what 'flavor' of Linux or Distribution (aka 'Distro') is a difficult thing for new people and even though I've experimented with Linux / Unix based systems since the 90's I did a lot of research to finally decide Mint is what I wanted and would make the least hassle overall for my usage, with wide array of available software from the Repositories.

You see on Linux due to variances software must be prepared to be compatible with various mainstream versions. Thus 'Distros' are created to use prepared packages by various entities, teams or Companies, etc. which are set up to be able to connect or include repositories of software that is prepared to be compatible with that version or DE, etc.

Its a long subject, but made easier now-a-days - just stick with Major mainstream versions.
The most widely used is Ubuntu-based. It has the most software and is easiest. Mint is an Ubuntu-based Distro.
Ubuntu is actually possible by being made by made by Canonical a commercial company. Ubuntu based systems also have probably the best security updates the fastest.
There is a huge team of professionals and security experts that 24 -7 are keeping on top of breaking security flaws. Typically a flaw is actually discovered either by an AV reseacher or an Ubuntu researcher.

Or the other places are Redhat / IBM or SUSE which are the big players in business but those are commercial systems used by corporations, military, servers, clusters etc.. They don't have the software really for end users and are paid systems. They also offer free user-supported community versions but they are not recommended by me as they are slow to update are more or less testing grounds for geeks, etc. or in the case os a few like OpenSuse tailor for small business use mostly in Europe, etc. and lack updates and software also.
Redhat + fedora, Suse and Opensuse are different eco-systems than Debian or Ubuntu. I don't recommend them even though I originally learned some Redhat back in the 90's for web server uses.

There is also Arch based Distros like Manjaro. I don't recommend. Arch is advanced Linux. The end systems most advanced users evenetually long for since you can build up an arch system to do whatever you want exactly piece by piece. But I don't use arch. Its its own eco-system.

Ok so I have to say that whether you use Linux or not there is a adjustment period. And the odd feeling and/or frustrations you will have to learn to deal with. Depending on your usage for the computer. Because its differs from Windows.
This throws most people off. Although its no different really than if you are for instance driving a foreign auto or driving in the UK where they drive on the left side of the road.

Now if you just only use browser its no problem to adjust. In fact if say your wife uses browser or kids and you opened Firefox on Linux system for them they would never even know they were not on Windows. Because its the same browser.
Now some people only swear by Google Chrome. Well it doesn't come standard on most on Linux. They have Chromium. Although AFAIK you can get it. You have to download it. Chromium uses the same engine, features may vary. I don't use so I can't comment more, other than to say Most people if they swear by only Chrome they are also put off and often won't try Linux.

If you use email well on Linux they don't have MS office etc. But they have free Libre Office or mny other suites. They have thunderbird or many others less used.
The only real issues with Linux is people have is MS office documents in some cases the formatting can be off.
Well actually that is because M$ fault. M$ actually does not adhere to industry standards. That said there is np for me with so many documents I use Libre Office.
If stupid M$ would have used the open documents formats or so many others there never would be a problem
No wonder they always do thaat -- otherwise they would not exist long! Becuase basically when its all said and done Linux is overall a better OS than M$.

Personaly I only use web-based email though my browser so its np for me. I hated Outlook etc. Besides that was always one of the #1 security weakness anyway.

Now there are a slew of softwares now a days to remote connect various emails. Apps / clients basically. Also if you twitter,etc. or so many other things

Now this is another thing about Linux I should say that relates to what I said above:
Software can work on Linux version - even if it doesn't come in the default repositories that your version is set up for - If someone has prepared it correctly. Usually you have to go to the website and download it. Many softwares have version for Ubuntu , Mint , Debian (which is actually want Ubuntu is based on) etc.

Easier on Ubunt or Mint there is what is called PPA's - Personal Archives peope make you can download or add as a repo. They get updates if done correctly.

You see really anything you can do on Windows you can do on LInux.

With LInux there is hardly ever a need to buy software again in your lifetime, unless you want to. And many softwares are superior and more industry compliance actually.

There is not the same software in most cases so again you have to get used to it.
So its like if you moved to say Italia or the UK. The shops are a bit different, the money, etc. You have to adjust. You might. like me like it better. Or you might not.

Now on the gaming front; That stops a lot of gamers. There is Steam on Linux now, but not all games are available. There is Wine and it works for some games, for instance EAW can be flown on Linux easily with better framerate than Windows - See my website in my signature.

For gamers is most important does your game work on Linux? Look it up. Google a lot or at your game site, etc.

And then also there's Dual Boot you might go with.

or EAW from a Live USB ( I used SparkyLinux because it has Wine pre-installed from the get-go)

VonS is really the Goto man for WOFF in Wine on Linux - in fact he's quoted in the manual http://www.overflandersfields.com/index_html_files/FAQ%20WOFF%20UE.pdf

Anyway here's a bunch of links.
https://www.linuxmint.com/download_all.php

https://distrowatch.com/

https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major

https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=faq

https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=faq#newtolinux

https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=glossary

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_compared_to_other_distributions

https://help.ubuntu.com/

my site:

https://eawonlinux.neocities.org/linux.html

Got Mint?

https://eawonlinux.neocities.org/eollinks.html

https://eawonlinux.neocities.org/eoleaw.html

https://eawonlinux.neocities.org/eoleaw128ewine.html

or EAW from a Live USB ( I used SparkyLinux because it has Wine pre-installed from the get-go)

Goodluck!
-------------------

Oh btw for Win 7 here's the link for extended support;

https://www.ghacks.net/2020/01/14/windows-7-support-ends-today-here-are-your-options/

https://www.ghacks.net/2019/12/07/s...dows-7-extended-security-updates-checks/


btw: I don't have WOFF, etc. but I am thinking about trying it.

Last edited by FsFOOT; 01/17/20 08:06 AM. Reason: grammar - excuse but too long for edits
#4504038 - 01/17/20 12:47 PM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: lederhosen]  
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lederhosen Offline
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Salute

thx all for the input.

I upgraded for free to W10. So far I just have to get used to it I guess.
But I will try a dual boot OS in the near future with Linux


make mistakes and learn from them

I5 4440 3.1Ghz, Asrock B85m Pro3, Gtx 1060 3GB
#4504091 - 01/17/20 08:58 PM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: FsFOOT]  
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VonS Offline
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Originally Posted by FsFOOT


VonS is really the Goto man for WOFF in Wine on Linux - in fact he's quoted in the manual http://www.overflandersfields.com/index_html_files/FAQ%20WOFF%20UE.pdf



For WOFFue/pe in WINE (WineSkin specifically) on a Mac - not so much on Linux (haven't tested on Linux). Also, for WINE on a Mac, keep in mind (if any Mac users are here) that WOFF in WINE works well to about ver. 10.12 (Sierra) of OS X - High Sierra (10.13) and above is hit-and-miss. I now run WOFFpe (and WOTR) in Win10 professional on the BootCamp side of my Mac Pro (2013) - allows for crossfire mode with the two vid. cards, giving the advantage of 12GB of video ram more video processing power on the order of 60 to 80% extra**. For simpler Macs with integrated video cards (by Intel) - and providing you can install OS X ver. 10.12 or earlier on them - installing in WineSkin is a good solution if you don't like dual booting into Windows.

Happy flying,
Von S smile

** Whether video ram is stacked, mirrored, both stacked and mirrored, partially stacked but fully mirrored, etc., is beyond my interests - consult Google if interested in more info. on how Crossfire/SLI mode functions.

Last edited by VonS; 01/18/20 05:14 AM. Reason: Crossed out reference to doubled video memory in crossfire mode, to appease video card pundits who may be reading these forums.
#4504113 - 01/18/20 12:20 AM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: VonS]  
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Originally Posted by VonS
[quote=FsFOOT] I now run WOFFpe (and WOTR) in Win10 professional on the BootCamp side of my Mac Pro (2013) - allows for crossfire mode with the two vid. cards, giving the advantage of 12GB of video ram.


You'll pardon my saying so - but (assuming I'm following), you're saying you have two cards with 6G each and because of Crossfire, that gives you 12G video ram?

With all due respect, I'm pretty sure neither SLI nor Crossfire actually yield double the memory because of using two cards. This is a common misconception, in fact, and discussed as such all over online. Here's one source, there are many:

"A common misconception is that you will get double video RAM with double cards. In actuality, they mirror the data in the buffer. If you’re using AMD CrossFire and have graphics cards of two different VRAM capacities, then it will default to the lowest size. For example: If you have two video cards, one with 8GB of RAM and one with 6GB and they’re both compatible to be used with each other, both cards will act as if they have 6GB instead of 8 and 6, respectively." (LINK)

I think there was discsussion long ago about Dx12 being able to "stack" VRAM, but I believe that never actually materialized. Maybe I'm wrong.

#4504122 - 01/18/20 02:37 AM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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VonS Offline
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear

I think there was discsussion long ago about Dx12 being able to "stack" VRAM, but I believe that never actually materialized. Maybe I'm wrong.


Interesting info. gents' but I wouldn't know the technicalities. From what I've read, AMD Crossfire deals in a slightly different way than nVidia SLI with multiple GPUs. Whether such setups only "mirror" vid-memory or treat this as doubled, "shared" memory is beyond my GPU-related knowledge.

Being an old-school Mac head biggrin I've based my comments on what's actually happening with ave. fps in my flight sims on the Mac OS side, and in Win10 on BootCamp - for example, First Eagles 2 averages to about 60 fps on the Mac side (that doesn't support Crossfire) - on the Win10 side, I'm getting on ave. about 100 fps with Crossfire enabled in the AMD settings panel (2 FirePro D700 cards).

I get similar fps (from about 80 to 120) in WOFFue/pe too, on the Win10 side. So I guess one of the most accurate comments regarding Crossfire/SLI that I've encountered on the internet is that it gives a performance increase in some sims and games of "about 60 to 80%" - not exactly doubled but good enough for me to see a performance boost on the Win as opposed to the Mac side. Or maybe it's the Intel Xeon processor that's helping me out...who knows, too many factors to test. But I'm not complaining - performance of WOFF/WOTR/FE2/SF2 is just fine on this legacy Mac Pro (2013 model).

Happy flying all,
Von S smile

#4504125 - 01/18/20 03:34 AM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: lederhosen]  
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Right, so the thing is, you can't mistake the performance increase (which is also well documented, and goes on the order of 60-80%, just as you noted) as a benefit of a memory increase (which doesn't exist).

The performance increase is strictly due to having more processing horsepower in two graphics cards, not because of doubling memory. This is the reason for multi-GPU arrangements, more processing power. Unfortunately, even though many have thought it was true or wished it were, memory isn't doubled.

Just don't want to mislead anyone is all. This comes up from time to time, with both Crossfire and SLI. As I mentioned, its a common misconception. The reason you get the increase on the Windows side - or rather, why you don't see it on the "Mac side" - is because, as you said, Mac doesnt support Crossfire.

#4504316 - 01/20/20 01:51 PM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: lederhosen]  
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lederhosen Offline
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argggg...nose dived on this one.

boot up pc and get BsOD that never ends....sigh
spending all day reinstalling w7 etc.

dont know what went wrong..


make mistakes and learn from them

I5 4440 3.1Ghz, Asrock B85m Pro3, Gtx 1060 3GB
#4504353 - 01/20/20 08:13 PM Re: W10 or Linux?? [Re: lederhosen]  
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VonS Offline
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Originally Posted by lederhosen
argggg...nose dived on this one.

boot up pc and get BsOD that never ends....sigh
spending all day reinstalling w7 etc.

dont know what went wrong..


Possibly drivers need updating before moving to Win10? Although, depending on the age of the hardware, newer drivers may not be possible to install. I'm sure one of our technical specialists will pitch in with more specific info. In the meantime, for those who (firmly) prefer to continue using Win7 in its many flavors, I recommend a look over the following suggestions (copied-pasted from the FE2 thread over on CombatAce):


1. use a browser other than IE or Edge (I like Firefox loaded up with AdBlockPlus and PrivacyBadger - also good is the Pale Moon Browser, a fork of the slightly older Firefox before Quantum, with the AdBlockLatitude plugin)

2. for email, use a desktop program that doesn't support html - I like Sylpheed (not Sylpheed Claws but the plain old Sylpheed - works well enough and html emails can easily be opened in your web browser if you click on such emails)

3. install MSE (Microsoft Security Essentials) and set it to work as your malware "wall," instead of the old Windows Defender that comes with Win7, since definitions in the old Defender only go up to about 2012

4. look into downloading "ClamWin" (free, barebones antivirus program - it can be scheduled to run weekly, daily, etc. - has no "real-time" scanning but I like that since it doesn't bog down system resources) - ClamWin is simply a graphical front end to ClamAV and is updated regularly

5. go into the "system" settings in the control panels window, and make sure to "enable DEP for all programs" and reboot to take effect (you might have to toggle this to "DEP for essential programs only" if you want to run IL2-1946 however; although that problem seems to be related only to "46" on Win10)

6. set up a "standard user" account on Win7 and use that for regular computing, instead of an administrative account

7. since official support has ended for Win7, download and install what's referred to as the "0patch" app - this patches vulnerabilities on the fly, only while you are running vulnerable programs, on Win7, and comes in a free edition - seems legit. from what I've been able to test on my Win7 installs (0patch is available at the following link https://0patch.com/)

8. download OSArmor for Win7 (and Win10), and enable it using the default settings that are already selected in it - the program blocks various connections to your computer (available here https://www.novirusthanks.org/products/osarmor/)

9. go into your firewall settings and select "block all incoming connections" for all profiles available, including public, home, etc.

10. go into your wireless/ethernet adapter settings (available under the advanced tab in "networking"), and disable, in the properties section of the adapter, "IPv6," if you're not using it and only relying on IPv4 for network connections

Happy flying (and computing),

Von S smile

Last edited by VonS; 02/13/20 11:54 PM. Reason: Added info.

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