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#4503453 - 01/12/20 09:27 AM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: reconmercs]  
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After Pearl Harbor, the movie moved on to this which I was quite surprised by it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshalls%E2%80%93Gilberts_raids

Very few people know about this.

Between the events of Pearl Harbor and Midway, most everyone think the first attempt by the USA to take the war to the Japanese is the Doolittle Raid.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4503456 - 01/12/20 11:28 AM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: reconmercs]  
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This is a Chinese co-production!

It's alright.

The CGI is dumb.

Showing 10 planes diving on a carrier like a bunch of sheep following each other into the ocean.

I doubt that's the tactic that was used by the US carriers torpedo and bomber planes at Midway.

They mentioned a few names of those who took place in the battle on both sides but they left out Ensign George H. Gay.

The historical accuracy was correct on some things and wrong on many.

I was in middle school at the time when the first Midway movie was released in 1976.

I spent hours at the library researching the subject by going through dozens of books and pouring over countless newspapers articles on microfiche on the battle:

remember, back then in 1976 there was no internet and WIKI and SIRI and GOOGLE and so on.

I wrote a 10 pages paper on the Battle of Midway which earned me an A+.

Now if you want to know about it, just open the WIKI page.

Too easy!

#4503559 - 01/13/20 03:25 AM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy


Wouldn't Japan still ended up losing but just a bit later maybe in 1946 or 1947?




I think this would have been the most likely scenario. A Japanese win at Midway would have only bought them more time since Japan was hopelessly outclassed compared to the US when it came to industrial capacity/production. I believe Japan built less than 10 aircraft carriers during the war while the US built well over 150 between fleet, escort and light carriers.


Probably, but, as with all what-ifs, you change one thing, and how many others change? Historically, the Guadalcanal campaign, even after the victory at Midway, delayed the American offensive operations in Europe by several months. If the American navy is forced to pull back after a crushing defeat at Midway, would the US have instead gone into a complete holding operation in the Pacific and concentrated harder on Germany, or would it have delayed the war against Germany even longer?

If the former, do the Americans have the will to fight the war into 1948 or 1950, given that the Japanese would probably have taken all of New Guinea, Samoa, Christmas Islands, etc. and at least seriously threatened Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii, and India in the meantime. Moreover, the Japanese Navy, will still outnumbered would feature 8-10 fleet carriers with presumably better quality crew and planes than were frittered-away historically in the naval-air actions in 1943-1944? After 10 years of war, is the American public willing to accept a negotiated peace?

If the latter, the bomber offensive is later getting started, German armament production possibly reaches its full potential (or close to it), artillery production is not diverted to anti-aircraft weaponry, and the Luftwaffe fighter force is not withdrawn from the Eastern Front. In 1943-1944, the Luftwaffe is able to hold its own against the VVS, possibly even maintain local air superiority over critical areas, and the Heer, not nearly as short on artillery and anti-tank guns, has a much better chance of repelling Soviet attacks (which themselves would be severely lacking in logistical support if Lend Lease were curtailed). Presumably with the Allied buildup and landing in western France delayed several months or even years, Hitler and the OKW do not feel it necessary to funnel a disproportionate number of high-quality, highly-mobile SS, Panzer, and Panzergrenadier divisions (as well as large numbers of Panthers and Tigers) to the Western Front, leaving eastern army groups with mobile forces sufficient to contain and possibly even destroy Soviet breakthroughs. Given that, historically, the Soviets were nearing the end of their "endless" manpower reserves in the spring of 1945, a German military that manages to stay fully focused on the Eastern Front all through 1943 and 1944 probably at least stalemates the Soviets for the foreseeable future. If the war in the east "got stuck" for a couple of years, would Stalin and Hitler have been willing to negotiate a peace? Probably not, but we do know Stalin considered seeking terms a couple of times early on, so it is not entirely impossible, and if that happened, how would the war have gone?

Certainly, of course, Americans could have probably resolved things in their favor later in 1945 or 1946 by delivering nukes world-wide. . . but then again, if the Germans held out a couple of years longer, or the Japanese managed to get hold of sufficient quantities of uranium (both possible if America lost at Midway), could they have developed an atomic bomb in time to keep the United States from using at as war-winning weapon? While the odds are against it, they are much better than what the historical timeline allowed.

#4503592 - 01/13/20 11:46 AM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
This is a Chinese co-production!




Simply put, the film would not have been made at all without money from multiple studios and foreign sources.


Having said that, "Midway" was still one of the costliest commercial flops of 2019.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 01/13/20 11:54 AM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4503645 - 01/13/20 06:06 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: reconmercs]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy
After Pearl Harbor, the movie moved on to this which I was quite surprised by it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshalls%E2%80%93Gilberts_raids

Very few people know about this.

Between the events of Pearl Harbor and Midway, most everyone think the first attempt by the USA to take the war to the Japanese is the Doolittle Raid.


I was surprised by that when I saw it as I didn't think it, or the Doolittle raids, would be in a film about Midway. I thought it was a good job to include some historical accuracy and lesser known operations. I guess they had to do something to balance the mediocre CGI, bad aircraft tactics, and airplanes that ignore physics.

The only big thing they got really wrong that I can remember was where and what the carriers were doing when Pearl Harbor was attacked. In the movie they were on their way to Pearl with more aircraft and historically they were on the way to Wake to reinforce the air group there.

Overall I it wasn't bad and I kinda liked it. BUT, I went in there with really poor expectations based off the terrible trailers. Also, it being Hollywood I also expected them to get most everything completely wrong. So, ah, good job Hollywood for exceeding some very low expectations.

#4503648 - 01/13/20 06:16 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: wormfood]  
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Originally Posted by wormfood
So, ah, good job Hollywood for exceeding some very low expectations.



I guess it all boils down to what level of historical inaccuracy the viewer is willing to let slide. If a viewer is expecting 100% historical accuracy then trying to find that in a Hollywood movie is a waste of time. They might as well watch only documentaries.


I'm thinking right now and I believe "Tora, Tora, Tora" is probably about as close as any Hollywood-produced film has even reached to being 100% historically accurate but in my opinion I don't think those types of war movies really sell anymore with today's audience.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4503663 - 01/13/20 08:33 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by wormfood
So, ah, good job Hollywood for exceeding some very low expectations.



I guess it all boils down to what level of historical inaccuracy the viewer is willing to let slide. If a viewer is expecting 100% historical accuracy then trying to find that in a Hollywood movie is a waste of time. They might as well watch only documentaries.


I figure if we judge it by baseball stats, the 30% accuracy of Midway is pretty good.

#4503708 - 01/14/20 02:21 AM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: wormfood]  
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Originally Posted by wormfood
.

The only big thing they got really wrong that I can remember was where and what the carriers were doing when Pearl Harbor was attacked. In the movie they were on their way to Pearl with more aircraft and historically they were on the way to Wake to reinforce the air group there.


Enterprise had already flown off the F4Fs to Wake and was on the way back to Pearl on 7 Dec 41. In fact, if some rough weather had not slowed her down, she would have been pulling into Pearl right about the time of (if not just before) the Japanese attack. A group of Enterprise aircraft did fly into the middle of the attack, and others were shot down by friendly fire later that night when they attempted to land at Ford Island.

Last edited by Nimits; 01/14/20 02:22 AM.
#4503753 - 01/14/20 03:19 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: Nimits]  
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Originally Posted by Nimits
Originally Posted by wormfood
.

The only big thing they got really wrong that I can remember was where and what the carriers were doing when Pearl Harbor was attacked. In the movie they were on their way to Pearl with more aircraft and historically they were on the way to Wake to reinforce the air group there.


Enterprise had already flown off the F4Fs to Wake and was on the way back to Pearl on 7 Dec 41. In fact, if some rough weather had not slowed her down, she would have been pulling into Pearl right about the time of (if not just before) the Japanese attack. A group of Enterprise aircraft did fly into the middle of the attack, and others were shot down by friendly fire later that night when they attempted to land at Ford Island.


Thanks for that Nimits. Guess my memory isn't as good as I thought.

#4503760 - 01/14/20 04:10 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy

Now if you want to know about it, just open the WIKI page.

Too easy!


I'm not nearly as old as you are but I do remember card catalogs, and that saddens me that our youth today will never experience such antiquity in their learning endeavors. Because information is so readily available now, they'll practically trust any McWebsite because™. Truth be told, though, stuff like Wikipedia is so easy to edit and change. Most of the information was hardly vetted by a team of professional editors or authors or had to face public scrutiny on the book store shelves, or deal with the reviewers in the press.

The information is there, so it must be, because.

Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 01/14/20 04:18 PM.
#4503785 - 01/14/20 05:54 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: reconmercs]  
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Wiki certainly has issues, but when books were published years ago, I'm sure many of them were fraught with inaccuracies as well, but no one every went back to correct them. Believing something just because it's in a book is not much better than believing it because it's on a website, in my opinion. Both still require multiple cross-references to ensure you are getting accurate information.


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#4503789 - 01/14/20 06:34 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: reconmercs]  
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True, published books aren't guaranteed accurate. In fact, many publishers will not vet content contained within books, but generally speaking most authors will go to greater lengths to verify what they are writing is accurate. Their reputation is on the line, and if they were to continually produce works that were inaccurate, they run the risk of publishers dropping them or the public not purchasing their work. With Wikipedia there is little financial benefit to prune the work so it is accurate.

But publishers aren't a shield, as they'll routinely blockade authors from publishing if their works do not conform to the accepted ideals of the "in" crowd. There are books and authors out there rife with bias and agenda, and some of them sell very well to a fanatical fan base.

The rule of thumb with any research is multiple sources at all times.

#4503833 - 01/15/20 04:45 AM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted by Arthonon
Wiki certainly has issues, but when books were published years ago, I'm sure many of them were fraught with inaccuracies as well, but no one every went back to correct them. Believing something just because it's in a book is not much better than believing it because it's on a website, in my opinion. Both still require multiple cross-references to ensure you are getting accurate information.


Books for sure can have mistakes of varying degrees of severity. The big difference is that you cannot (1) change or delete information from a book without people knowing it and (2) you know who wrote the info (and, if it is a serious/scholarly work, where the author got the info), both of which are not consistently true on Wikipedia or other internet sources.

#4503850 - 01/15/20 12:11 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: Nimits]  
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Originally Posted by Nimits
Originally Posted by Arthonon
Wiki certainly has issues, but when books were published years ago, I'm sure many of them were fraught with inaccuracies as well, but no one every went back to correct them. Believing something just because it's in a book is not much better than believing it because it's on a website, in my opinion. Both still require multiple cross-references to ensure you are getting accurate information.


Books for sure can have mistakes of varying degrees of severity. The big difference is that you cannot (1) change or delete information from a book without people knowing it and (2) you know who wrote the info (and, if it is a serious/scholarly work, where the author got the info), both of which are not consistently true on Wikipedia or other internet sources.


Example: The absolute worse error I've ever seen in a book was in a biography of Astronaut Alan Shepard, "Light This Candle" by Thomas Neal. The author described transpositioning and docking as happening in earth orbit, then the Apollo CSM using it's engine to send the stack on to the moon. There were other inaccuracies about aircraft/spacecraft etc. all through the book, things that a person with no technical knowledge of aviation or spaceflight would not notice. Made me question the entirety of the book, ie the personal things about Shepard's early life that I can't verify.


“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” - 2 Chronicles 7:14
#4503874 - 01/15/20 03:59 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: reconmercs]  
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Another problem with older books on WW2 is they were written without the benefit of any Japanese or Russian sources.
The other problem, in my case, is you read them 20-25 years ago, forget some of it, and then get other ones mixed in.

#4503877 - 01/15/20 04:05 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: reconmercs]  
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For almost 30 years after the war all war histories were written with no knowledge of allied code breaking success, ie Ultra and Magic.


“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” - 2 Chronicles 7:14
#4503883 - 01/15/20 04:19 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: reconmercs]  
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Just for the record, I wasn't saying that books weren't useful, or didn't have advantages over wiki pages, but that they are not a fully reliable source either, and in either instance, it is a good idea to read multiple sources and perspectives.

You don't necessarily know the bias of the person writing any book, and unless someone challenges the accuracy publicly, you may not hear about it. Also, an advantage of wiki pages is that they can be updated with new information as it becomes available, whereas a book cannot. So there are advantages and disadvantages to both, but I wouldn't rely on any one of them as being accurate without separate sources being compared.


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#4503965 - 01/16/20 08:59 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by Crane Hunter
Midway and other important WW2 battles are the kind of subject matter that would be handled much better by crowdfunded indie efforts rather than low common denominator focussed Hollywood.


Ding! Ding! We have a winner ladies and gentlemen. smile


Having said that, I have NO CLUE how Chris Nolan managed to make his "Dunkirk" film a box office hit in the US. That guy must be an alien with super powers or something.



I look forward to Tenet.


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#4503966 - 01/16/20 09:08 PM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy

They mentioned a few names of those who took place in the battle on both sides but they left out Ensign George H. Gay.


I have his book signed by him.


Keep Calm and Check Canopy

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#4504027 - 01/17/20 11:37 AM Re: HOLY CRAPPY CGI BATMAN (Midway 2019) [Re: Timothy]  
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Originally Posted by Timothy



I look forward to Tenet.



Me too. Supposedly it takes place in the same universe as "Inception".


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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