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#4501329 - 12/23/19 07:03 PM AI have better engines?  
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Icer Offline
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Newbie question, just got WOTR, updated to 1.19, and jumped into a Campaign. 1st mission is a simple patrol over a friendly base on the south coast. I took off in order with a few planes behind me, but was quickly passed and out-climbed and left in the dust with the rest of the squadron disappearing into the distance within 5 minutes. I was at 100% throttle, clean (no flaps), do I need to change the prop pitch? Kick in WEP? My speed climbing at a shallow 5 degrees was maxed at about 200MPH, does not seem right?


Gary "Icer" Patricks

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#4501364 - 12/24/19 12:04 AM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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You need to do all sorts of stuff.... Adjust the prop pitch, mixture, and trim (I use auto trim). Make sure your flaps are all the way up, and it all has to be done quickly. I would start out using auto pilot and watch the instruments to see what is going on. The highest revs on the tac aren't the fastest speed, it takes some practice to get the feel of the game, it isn't necessarily intuitive. Prop pitch is really important.


More Scotch and Stogies for my Wingman!
#4501372 - 12/24/19 03:28 AM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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The AI take off using WEP so if you want to take off at same speed as them, do as they do.
You don't need to adjust flaps because you start the mission with flaps up.
Gear needs to come up, obviously.
If you don't have auto-mixture set, then you need to adjust mixture (leaning as you climb) or your power and revs will soon drop off. Watch the boost gauge to help with the adjustment ... maximize the boost at full power and you are good.
Adjusting prop pitch will not make you go faster ... purpose of prop pitch is keep you engine from burning out due to high revs ... coarsen pitch until engine runs at 2800 rpm or less when cruising at full power.

#4501382 - 12/24/19 09:26 AM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: 77_Scout]  
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Thank you guys, I will dig in a bit deeper. Right now all settings are displayed on the screen (inc. engine HP output) so it will make it a bit easier to see what adj. does what. I'm fairly certain the RPMs were at 3000 constant and HP was about 970 or so when I finally noticed it.


Gary "Icer" Patricks

Alienware 17 R4 Laptop - Win10 Pro Ver. 1909 - Build 18363.592
i7-7820HK @3.6Gz (stock "Turbo") w/32GB DDR4 2600
1TB M.2 Crucial Boot Drive (WOTR installed here), 512GB M.2 Toshiba Data drive, 1TB WD SATA Pics/Docs drive
Gigabyte RTX 2080 card w/ 8GB in Alienware Graphics Amplifier - 432.00 drivers
Output to LG 32GK850G-B 32" 2560x1440 G-Sync monitor at 144Hz (VSync off on in game)
CH Fighterstick / Pro Throttle HOTAS with MTWSims 12 bit Mainboards and magnetoresistive sensors.
#4501391 - 12/24/19 12:38 PM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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I am having similar problems to the original poster with the spitfire.
What am I doing wrong ?
Straight and level, clean (can't see where to control radiator inlet if possible but fiddled with "cowling" setting with no improvement) full rich, prop fine and 2,800 max asi 210-220 mph with +5 boost showing. This is barely enough to do a loop from straight and level. My understanding is that engine should be able to achieve +9 in combat power (not WEP) at this altitude and 280mph with no problems doing a loop from straight and level. This level of performace seems to agree with other simulations of early BOB spitfires.
So what facts have I got wrong or what am I doing incorrectly in sim ?

Many thanks TIM

#4501394 - 12/24/19 12:56 PM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: RANSs9]  
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Icer Offline
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Originally Posted by RANSs9
I am having similar problems to the original poster with the spitfire.
What am I doing wrong ?
Straight and level, clean (can't see where to control radiator inlet if possible but fiddled with "cowling" setting with no improvement) full rich, prop fine and 2,800 max asi 210-220 mph with +5 boost showing. This is barely enough to do a loop from straight and level. My understanding is that engine should be able to achieve +9 in combat power (not WEP) at this altitude and 280mph with no problems doing a loop from straight and level. This level of performace seems to agree with other simulations of early BOB spitfires.
So what facts have I got wrong or what am I doing incorrectly in sim ?

Many thanks TIM



As was stated above (though I haven't tried again yet) -
Originally Posted by 77_Scout
If you don't have auto-mixture set, then you need to adjust mixture (leaning as you climb) or your power and revs will soon drop off. Watch the boost gauge to help with the adjustment ... maximize the boost at full power and you are good.


Last edited by Icer; 12/24/19 12:59 PM.

Gary "Icer" Patricks

Alienware 17 R4 Laptop - Win10 Pro Ver. 1909 - Build 18363.592
i7-7820HK @3.6Gz (stock "Turbo") w/32GB DDR4 2600
1TB M.2 Crucial Boot Drive (WOTR installed here), 512GB M.2 Toshiba Data drive, 1TB WD SATA Pics/Docs drive
Gigabyte RTX 2080 card w/ 8GB in Alienware Graphics Amplifier - 432.00 drivers
Output to LG 32GK850G-B 32" 2560x1440 G-Sync monitor at 144Hz (VSync off on in game)
CH Fighterstick / Pro Throttle HOTAS with MTWSims 12 bit Mainboards and magnetoresistive sensors.
#4501425 - 12/24/19 05:37 PM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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Icer Offline
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I just tried it, used WEP to climb out, played with mixture once up over 5k, played with prop pitch a bit (wish there was an indicator for it, the box runs off my screen edge). All went perfectly until they called bandits and I hit WEP. Engine condition said 100% but I was down to 650HP +/-. No mixture adj. helped and WEP was gone, basically became a 150mph flying brick..

Last edited by Icer; 12/24/19 05:38 PM.

Gary "Icer" Patricks

Alienware 17 R4 Laptop - Win10 Pro Ver. 1909 - Build 18363.592
i7-7820HK @3.6Gz (stock "Turbo") w/32GB DDR4 2600
1TB M.2 Crucial Boot Drive (WOTR installed here), 512GB M.2 Toshiba Data drive, 1TB WD SATA Pics/Docs drive
Gigabyte RTX 2080 card w/ 8GB in Alienware Graphics Amplifier - 432.00 drivers
Output to LG 32GK850G-B 32" 2560x1440 G-Sync monitor at 144Hz (VSync off on in game)
CH Fighterstick / Pro Throttle HOTAS with MTWSims 12 bit Mainboards and magnetoresistive sensors.
#4501440 - 12/24/19 07:11 PM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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Originally Posted by Icer
(wish there was an indicator for it, the box runs off my screen edge)


The info. box can be dragged, for example, to the left-hand side of your screen, so that info. doesn't run off the right edge (see my pics. under the WOTR pics. section as examples).

In terms of speeds/power/climb/wep boost, etc. - I've just started flying WOTR, largely in one-on-one dogfights, to get a feel - using the Mk.I Hurricane - and it feels fine so far (the Hurri. is capable but not as good as the BF-109).

I did look into the aircraft cfg files however, because I couldn't control myself biggrin , and from what I can see there are five relevant sections to tweak/toggle per taste - weight and balance section / piston engine section / propeller section / reference speeds section / air-wrench section. Keep in mind that there are a total of 17 folders each for the BF-109, the Spit. Mk.I, and the Hurri. Mk.I - and each include an aircraft cfg file - so manual tinkering takes time.

Having said that, I first recommend trying out, in the sim itself, things like prop pitch, mixture, etc., to see if this gives you better performance in relation to the AI - as other posters have also recommended.

Happy flying,
Von S smile

Last edited by VonS; 12/24/19 07:12 PM. Reason: Edited info.
#4501458 - 12/24/19 09:56 PM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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Ooooppps ...forgot to state altitude.. Full throttle,clean aircraft, rich mixture, prop fine, 220mph (at 2,000- 3,000 ft) for spitfire mk1a. A quick check of internet showed it should be 280-300mph. MIxture shouldn't be a factor at this height .
Something isn't right...... and I am quite willing to be shown that problem is me.. A spitfire clean full throttle in level flight at 2-3,000ft should have no problem looping.

Tim

#4501461 - 12/24/19 10:09 PM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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The general rule of thumb, minus technicalities, is about 100 kph slower top speed near sea level than best top speed possible at altitude, for WW2 aircraft (I'm here going on tweaks that I've been tinkering with for my early WW2 SF2 install). Having said that, yes the 480s kph sound about right for top SL speed for the Mk.I Spit., since its best speed at alt. is the 580s kph approx. - I've just gotten started enjoying WOTR so I'll tinker with some of these numbers soon. I'm sure that it's an easy fix in the cfg file - or is maybe even simpler, requiring the right balance of prop pitch and mixture in sim. Will take the Hurri. Mk.I through some aerobatics over the next few days - I recommend trying out the WEP boost to see what numbers you're getting then, near sea level. Perhaps full throttle (minus wep) needs more power, and wep boost should be "de-boosted" slightly (I'm speculating for now - will test for myself over the next few days before commenting with a solution if necessary).

TEST RESULTS BELOW

Instead of posting a new post, I'm including results of my Mk.I Hurricane test here gents' - good news, all is well (no need to tinker with the cfg files) - in response to the questions posted in this thread, simply tweak mixture and prop pitch control settings more carefully. For example, at an alt. of 3000 m, 100% non-wep throttle, prop pitch set to 41, and mixture to 75%, I can get up to about the 460s kph true airspeed, and to about the 510s kph with wep enabled (which is close to historical - if I had dropped the mixture to about 65%, I might have gotten even better results).

Please see the stats in the pics. included below for details at various alts. - among things noted, I can attain about the 410s kph near ground level at non-wep full throttle, and about the 430s kph with wep enabled (again close to historical if we consider the rule of thumb that SL speeds are about 80-120 kph lower than top wep-enabled speeds at alt.).

Other things to note - with good control of mixture and prop pitch, good climbs at about 300 kph can be maintained at most alts.; also, I think the sweet spot for prop pitch at least on the Hurri. is between about 39 and 42 degrees - I set it to about 39 and then the prop, at different speeds, adjusts by a few degrees, usually maintaining about 41 - this gives me 2600 rpm at full non-wep throttle at low alt., and about 3000 rpm at full non-wep throttle at alt., which is necessary for historical top speeds to be attained.

Obviously, for the BF-109 and Spit. Mk.I, you might require different optimal prop degrees for best climbs/top speeds/engine rpms, etc. Best mixture leaning on the Hurri. is something like 85% around the 2500 m alt. mark, 65-70 % around 3500 m alt., 45-50% around 5000 m alt., etc. Once you get close to its ceiling, you might have to lean as low as 31-2 %. Anything below that percentage and the engine stops running. In order not to waste fuel, feel free to lean mixture to about 85% even when flying low, although for landings you might want to go full rich, to increase the safety margin.

Also, take note that the optimal prop pitch setting for the Hurri. refers to numbers set at 100% non-wep throttle (lowering the throttle often changes the prop pitch automatically, so it's best to set to the optimal numbers at 100% non-wep in the case of each fighter aircraft, which should then give the best automatic prop pitch even at lower throttle and rpms across different alts.).

Happy holidays to all,
Von S smile2

[Linked Image]

Attached Files Shot12-24-19-21-29-18.jpgShot12-24-19-21-29-31.jpgShot12-24-19-21-35-58.jpgShot12-24-19-21-36-41.jpgShot12-24-19-21-59-34.jpg
Last edited by VonS; 12/25/19 06:05 AM. Reason: Added test results - the numbers look good.
#4501621 - 12/26/19 08:58 AM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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Great to hear there is no problem with the hurricane and no need to mess with cfg. files . I'll leave that to the developers.

My query is about the spitfire at lowish altitudes in level flight.
This bypasses complicating factors such as atmospheric modelling, mixture modelling, critical altitudes with super chargers etc. It even bypasses confusion about whether the poster is talking about true or indicated airspeed as the difference is minimal at these altitudes.

Straight and level at 2-3000 ft.. Clean with flaps/gear up confirmed with in cockpit indicators and external view of model.

Throttle on controller full forward, matches in game throttle position and indicates +5 1/2 on the boost gauge.(Shouldn't this be minimum +6 1/2 and in some of the engines in 1a's +9 ? Both with WEP available at +12)

Mixture set key press max rich . In game mixture lever full forward which makes sense to me. Forward is GO but appears may not be historically correct. I think I read somewhere that full rich position in the spitfire 1 and 2 was with the lever in the back position which doesn't make Human Factor sense to me
.
Prop set full fine or 2850 with key presses confirmed with the in cockpit gauge
.
Airspeed indicator in cockpit shows 210-220mph which I presume is IAS not TAS but as already indicated is pretty irrelevant at the stated altitude.Airspeed confirmed in game by difficulty in achieving a loop from straight and level.

I am not sure what i am doing wrong if anything. I know that sometimes you think you are doing something with the controller but the program isn't seeing it due to controller setup issues. But the in game indicators seem to suggest otherwise.
I would greatly appreciate any advice and also your performance figures in the Spitfire in a similar scenario.
Thanks Tim.

#4501624 - 12/26/19 10:00 AM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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Icer Offline
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I'm still scratching my head as to why I went from 950hp to 650hp an instant after I hit WEP (after using it for a few seconds several times earlier on) while the engine condition showed 100%.. No smoke, no noises, and no power. Is there a log of the last flight somewhere, be nice to see what happened.

Last edited by Icer; 12/26/19 10:01 AM.

Gary "Icer" Patricks

Alienware 17 R4 Laptop - Win10 Pro Ver. 1909 - Build 18363.592
i7-7820HK @3.6Gz (stock "Turbo") w/32GB DDR4 2600
1TB M.2 Crucial Boot Drive (WOTR installed here), 512GB M.2 Toshiba Data drive, 1TB WD SATA Pics/Docs drive
Gigabyte RTX 2080 card w/ 8GB in Alienware Graphics Amplifier - 432.00 drivers
Output to LG 32GK850G-B 32" 2560x1440 G-Sync monitor at 144Hz (VSync off on in game)
CH Fighterstick / Pro Throttle HOTAS with MTWSims 12 bit Mainboards and magnetoresistive sensors.
#4501695 - 12/27/19 03:13 AM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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TEST RESULTS BELOW FOR THE SPITTY MK.I (numbers look good from my end)

Please see attached pics. and info. in left-hand column of pics. for details, also gauge settings in some of the pics.

In short, very pleased with test results for the Spit. Mk.I as well. You will notice top speeds near sea-level of about 440 to 465 kph (non-wep full throttle and wep). The sweet spot for prop pitch on the Spit. at lower alts. is around 39-40, giving about 2600 rpm at full throttle, which is best for top speeds at lower alts. - bringing us to about 120 kph lower top speed near SL than maximum top speed possible at alt. (historical I'd say). Also feel free to lean out mixture to about 75-85% on the Spit even at lower alts. - seems to work out better that way. Plenty of power left to do loops, at non-wep full throttle, that way. Also great is that good, powerful climbs can be maintained - smooth climb slope but nice speed of about 350-400 kph at such settings (don't forget to lean fuel as you go higher up - similar rules for leaning as on the Hurri., about 50-60% at 3000 m alt., then down into the 40s% above about 5000 m alt.). Once you get close to its ceiling, you'll have to go as low as 30-1% for fuel mixture (below that and the engine conks out).

Also take note of a couple of the pics. done at an alt. of about 4800 m - notice the top speeds - 530s kph non-wep, and on a couple of pics., with wep, between 565 and 573 kph - within historical specs. for the Mk.I. Recommended, as on the Hurricane, is to tweak prop pitch at alts. above about 2000 m so that you can go to 3000 rpm (requires about 41-43 prop pitch) - this will give you the most bang for the buck so to speak - don't know if it will shorten the engine life span. biggrin 2600 rpm (pitch of 39-41) is best for alts. no higher than about 1500-2000 m or so.

Another important recommendation - I suggest not running wep power if you are close to the ceiling of the Spit. and not getting more than about 500-550 hp out of the engine at non-wep and 3000 rpm. I ran it and while I gain about 100 hp that way - it did some subtle damage to the engine that eventually proved hazardous just before reaching the aerodrome - fortunately I managed to crash-land in some nice scenery.

Happy flying,
Von S smile2

[Linked Image]

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Last edited by VonS; 12/27/19 03:17 AM. Reason: Embedded pic.
#4501736 - 12/27/19 05:29 PM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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Thanks alot VonS.
Good to see you're getting 280 mph at sea level and consequently no problem looping. Back to the drawing board at my end with the knowledge the performance is there.
Tim

#4501925 - 12/30/19 12:22 PM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: VonS]  
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Icer Offline
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Originally Posted by VonS
Originally Posted by Icer
(wish there was an indicator for it, the box runs off my screen edge)


The info. box can be dragged, for example, to the left-hand side of your screen, so that info. doesn't run off the right edge (see my pics. under the WOTR pics. section as examples).

Happy flying,
Von S smile


I've tried/failed dragging the the text boxes from the right to the left so I can see Prop Pitch (CTRL Left Mouse/drag according to the FAQ), am I missing something?


Gary "Icer" Patricks

Alienware 17 R4 Laptop - Win10 Pro Ver. 1909 - Build 18363.592
i7-7820HK @3.6Gz (stock "Turbo") w/32GB DDR4 2600
1TB M.2 Crucial Boot Drive (WOTR installed here), 512GB M.2 Toshiba Data drive, 1TB WD SATA Pics/Docs drive
Gigabyte RTX 2080 card w/ 8GB in Alienware Graphics Amplifier - 432.00 drivers
Output to LG 32GK850G-B 32" 2560x1440 G-Sync monitor at 144Hz (VSync off on in game)
CH Fighterstick / Pro Throttle HOTAS with MTWSims 12 bit Mainboards and magnetoresistive sensors.
#4501956 - 12/30/19 05:19 PM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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VonS Offline
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I recommend trying what I do to move text in WOFF/WOTR - right-click on your mouse first, to temporarily disable mouse view (otherwise you will simply go into mouse panning if you start dragging the mouse around). Then, simply drag the pointer to the top-left corner of the text you want to move, left-click and hold the left click, drag the block of text to the desired position, and release left-click. Hope this helps.

Von S smile2

Last edited by VonS; 12/30/19 05:21 PM. Reason: Added info.
#4502069 - 12/31/19 10:21 AM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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Icer Offline
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Thanks VonS! I was (per the FAQ) holding down CTRL and then trying to drag, simply left mouse drag did it!


Gary "Icer" Patricks

Alienware 17 R4 Laptop - Win10 Pro Ver. 1909 - Build 18363.592
i7-7820HK @3.6Gz (stock "Turbo") w/32GB DDR4 2600
1TB M.2 Crucial Boot Drive (WOTR installed here), 512GB M.2 Toshiba Data drive, 1TB WD SATA Pics/Docs drive
Gigabyte RTX 2080 card w/ 8GB in Alienware Graphics Amplifier - 432.00 drivers
Output to LG 32GK850G-B 32" 2560x1440 G-Sync monitor at 144Hz (VSync off on in game)
CH Fighterstick / Pro Throttle HOTAS with MTWSims 12 bit Mainboards and magnetoresistive sensors.
#4505501 - 01/30/20 04:24 AM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Icer]  
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Evochron Online content
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Wow great info VonS, brilliant thanks! smile

#4505566 - 01/30/20 06:11 PM Re: AI have better engines? [Re: Evochron]  
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Originally Posted by Evochron
Wow great info VonS, brilliant thanks! smile


Glad the info. is helpful - tweaking several FMs for prop-era aircraft in StrikeFighters2 (over the last year or two) - pushed me to do some reading/research into 1930s to 1950s fighters, so it wasn't too much trouble to reapply the info. to WOTR. If you want even more subtle prop adjustment than in the posts above, I recommend about 2800 rpm on the Hurri. and Spit. at alts. from about 1500 to 3000 m (above 3000 m always make sure to hit the sweet spot of 3000 rpm, before a fight, for max. speed/acceleration - for leisured cruising you can always chop down the rpms by about 200-300, and to minimize pushing the engine too hard). A prop pitch of between about 40-42 degrees should get you close to 2800 rpm - but it usually requires some fiddling with to get the desired rpms. I usually stick with my rule of 2600 rpm for low flights, and 3000 rpm for higher alt. flights - for simplicity - and so that you don't have to start tweaking rpms if you're jumped by someone.

Von S smile


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