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#4506734 - 02/09/20 01:30 AM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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So do the aviation experts members here think the 737 MAX will fly again and will folks get on them? After all if the 737 MAX flies again and folks needs to travel and there are no other flights with a different aircraft, those folks will have to get on.

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#4506766 - 02/09/20 09:19 AM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I think that they are finding more and more MAX issues is actually a good sign. It's a sign that the responsible persons at Boeing have woken up and are beginning to take matters seriously. With a bit of luck, the fact that the old management took so long to recognize it as the life-threatening situation for the whole company that it is, it will also discredit the management culture around it that lead to the whole disaster. Okay, that part is the incurable optimist in me speaking.

Personally, I'm more concerned about the CFC body of the 787 and its long-term durability since it's harder to detect faults in laminated CFC parts than the established X-ray diagnosis of aluminum I avoid 787 flights if I can, it simply sounds like an unnecessary risk to me. If there are no serious accidents within the next 10...15 years, I may change my mind. The problems of material degeneration won't surface before then.

#4506770 - 02/09/20 10:28 AM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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A new take on the old slogan: "If it's Boeing, I'm not going."
Doesn't apply to the older designs, but the newer ones do seem to be pushing 'something' (cost savings?) at the expense of being a decent safe aircraft.

#4506808 - 02/09/20 06:27 PM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: FlyingToaster]  
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Originally Posted by FlyingToaster
A new take on the old slogan: "If it's Boeing, I'm not going."
Doesn't apply to the older designs, but the newer ones do seem to be pushing 'something' (cost savings?) at the expense of being a decent safe aircraft.


Really? I have a friend who will not get on any Airbus. He will only fly on Boeing, McDonnell Douglas and Lockheed.

#4506811 - 02/09/20 06:32 PM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: FlyingToaster]  
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Originally Posted by FlyingToaster
A new take on the old slogan: "If it's Boeing, I'm not going."
Doesn't apply to the older designs, but the newer ones do seem to be pushing 'something' (cost savings?) at the expense of being a decent safe aircraft.


«If it’s a MAX, I’m not a pax» seems to be a new one.

I agree that Boeing management since the MD merger has turned a world-beating company into a top-heavy playground for the suits in Chicago, BUT...

..the Lion Air accident report is chilling reading. It is a doozy at 322 pages, but the section on CRM and actions in the cockpit from page 182 onwards is interesting and chilling reading. Essentially, the first officer didn’t know his memory items, which are mandatory knowledge and essential for prompt and correct actions in case of any of the failures requiring them. Control was handed back and forth several times. When the FO had the controls and the MCAS system trimmed nose down, he compensated by a little nose-up trim, but not enough. So every time he trimmed a unit or two nose up and released the switches, MCAS would trim three units nose down, until speed, stick forces and nose down movement became too much to overcome.

(I have 4000 or so hours on the 737)

In the Ethiopian case, the first officer was almost straight out of flight school, with I believe less than 300 hours’ total time in airplanes. The captain was 28, I believe, wih quite a few hours, but hours can be just logbook filler. That plane impacted the ground at more than 400 kts with the thrust levers firewalled. With a fresh FO, a failure such as MCAS that provides nose-down trim and increasing stick forces, possibly combined with unreliable airspeed leaves a captain flying essentially by himself. It is a very confusing chain of events requiring a cool head and a RETURN TO BASIC STICK AND RUDDER FLYING! My pet peeve in aviation today is the emerging complete lack of focus on the basics, and what this leads to is found at the bottom of a smoking hole in Ethiopia, buried in the seabed off Indonesia, just short of the runway at SFO, and so on. Many flight schools don’t even teach their students spins. These people, who have never banked at more than 60 degrees, never been inverted, never really flown by the seat of their pants, are finding themselves in the left and right seats of airliner cockpits in increasing numbers, and it is frankly scary.

This video was made in the mid-90s, but it is possibly even more relevant today. It is a lecture by a training captain at AA, and it is an industry classic.





In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#4506844 - 02/09/20 11:00 PM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: semmern]  
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Originally Posted by semmern


(I have 4000 or so hours on the 737)

In the Ethiopian case, the first officer was almost straight out of flight school, with I believe less than 300 hours’ total time in airplanes. The captain was 28, I believe, wih quite a few hours, but hours can be just logbook filler. That plane impacted the ground at more than 400 kts with the thrust levers firewalled. With a fresh FO, a failure such as MCAS that provides nose-down trim and increasing stick forces, possibly combined with unreliable airspeed leaves a captain flying essentially by himself. It is a very confusing chain of events requiring a cool head and a RETURN TO BASIC STICK AND RUDDER FLYING! My pet peeve in aviation today is the emerging complete lack of focus on the basics, and what this leads to is found at the bottom of a smoking hole in Ethiopia, buried in the seabed off Indonesia, just short of the runway at SFO, and so on. Many flight schools don’t even teach their students spins. These people, who have never banked at more than 60 degrees, never been inverted, never really flown by the seat of their pants, are finding themselves in the left and right seats of airliner cockpits in increasing numbers, and it is frankly scary.



Wow 4k already!

Great insight thanks.


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#4506873 - 02/10/20 07:34 AM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: Nixer]  
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Originally Posted by Nixer


Wow 4k already!

Great insight thanks.


Yep, the airlines ain’t no retirement home these days! Headbutting the limit of 900 hours almost every year.


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#4515796 - 04/11/20 12:57 PM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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New document reveals significant fall from grace for Boeing’s space program


Quote
"When comparing the selection rationale for the 2014 commercial crew contracts with the rationale for the recent Gateway logistics contract, the perception of Boeing's offering could not be more stark. In 2014, Boeing was very much perceived as the gold-standard—expensive, yes, but also technically masterful. In 2020, the company was still perceived as expensive but not ultimately worthy of consideration.

The 2014 crew contract analysis, authored by NASA's then-chief of human spaceflight, William Gerstenmaier, frequently lauds Boeing for its technical and management expertise. "This is a very comprehensive, credible plan," Gerstenmaier wrote. He described their earlier work in the commercial crew program as "excellent and effective," while providing "high quality products with sufficient detail."

In the analysis, which compared Boeing to SpaceX and the third competitor in the crew program, Sierra Nevada, Boeing received the highest marks. "Boeing's proposal had the highest overall Mission Suitability score and the highest adjectival ratings of Excellent for each of the two most heavily weighted subfactors, Technical and Management," Gerstenmaier wrote. "I agree with this assessment." In the final crew development awards, Boeing received $4.2 billion from NASA, and SpaceX $2.6 billion—reflecting Boeing's much higher costs at the time.

Six years later, the perception of Boeing's bid for the lunar cargo contract is much changed. Of the four contenders, it had the lowest overall technical and mission suitability scores. In addition, Boeing's proposal was characterized as "inaccurate" and possessing no "significant strengths." Boeing also was cited with a "significant weakness" in its proposal for pushing back on providing its software source code.

Due to its high price and ill-suited proposal for the lunar cargo contract, NASA didn't even consider the proposal among the final bidders. In his assessment late last year, NASA's acting chief of human spaceflight, Ken Bowersox, wrote, "Since Boeing’s proposal was the highest priced and the lowest rated under the Mission Suitability factor, while additionally providing a conditional fixed price, I have decided to eliminate Boeing from further award consideration.""


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#4515915 - 04/12/20 01:25 AM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Ouch, how the mighty have fallen.
How are those next quarter's profits you've prioritized over every thing else looking now, Boeing management?
Let all of you be held up as the example of how NOT to run a company in every business school in the world. Sure, you'll come out financially wealthy, but I hope your reputations are in tatters and remain that way.


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36
#4545358 - 11/18/20 03:17 PM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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#4545759 - 11/22/20 08:55 PM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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In the USA so far.....not sure if any other country has cleared it to fly yet. Canada certainly has not. Transport Canada has said they are implementing safety measures and training on top of what the FAA authorised.

#4550108 - 12/29/20 04:26 PM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I won't go on one of those. I hope those travelers get to Miami safely https://www.nbcnews.com/business/bu...ing-max-flight-almost-two-years-n1252452

#4572960 - 06/27/21 08:23 PM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The Seattle Times reports the FAA has denied Boeing's request to move on to certification of its new 777X jet.
Citing a serious flight test incide...y, FAA slows Boeing 777X certification




Quote
In a sternly worded letter dated May 13, which was reviewed by The Seattle Times, the FAA warned Boeing it may have to increase the number of test flights planned and that certification realistically is now more than two years out, probably in late 2023.

That could push the jet’s entry into commercial service into early 2024, four years later than originally planned.

The FAA cited a long litany of concerns, including a serious flight control incident during a test flight on Dec. 8, 2020, when the plane experienced an “uncommanded pitch event” — meaning the nose of the aircraft pitched abruptly up or down without input from the pilots.

Boeing has yet to satisfy the FAA that it has fully understood and corrected what went wrong that day.



Man, has Boeing management really changed the way they operate, or is this more of the same?
After the 737 Max fiasco, the Air Force KC-46 A tanker fiasco, the Starliner fiasco, now this.
Boeing's sad state of affairs is brought home by the following excerpt from the Seattle Times story,

Quote
The FAA official said that even if the MAX crashes hadn’t happened, the list of serious issues now raised about the 777X would merit rigorous regulatory attention.

Within the FAA, the person said, “there’s a general feeling that Boeing has kind of lost a step,” referring to the slide away from a historic reputation for engineering prowess.

And because of all the missteps, the official added, “the days of Boeing being able to say to the FAA ‘Just trust us’ are long gone.”


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36
#4572967 - 06/27/21 09:31 PM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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It started with moving the suits away from where the actual money is made, and not just across the street. All the way to Chicago. It is akin to a doctor removing his finger from a patient’s pulse. Always a bad move by any big company. They also seem to have gotten fat and happy, and started looking for cheap solutions, building down to a price instead of up to a specification. It is horrible to watch. Bill Allen and Joe Sutter must be turning in their graves.


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#4576905 - 08/10/21 04:22 AM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Turns out it wasn't one sticky valve in the propulsion system that delayed Starliner's launch, but THIRTEEN.

Boeing Advances Starliner Solutions in the Vertical Integration Facility


https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1424738066854522894

That's an awful lot of malfunctioning hardware for a vehicle that was supposedly ready to launch.

No wonder their chief astronaut, who was scheduled to fly this craft, suddenly retired earlier this year citing "personal reasons." I'm guessing one of those personal reasons could have been that he didn't want to done get blowed up.


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36
#4577278 - 08/14/21 10:18 AM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Boeing’s troubled Starliner spacecraft must return to factory, causing more delays

Quote
“It’s a disappointing day,” said Kathy Lueders, NASA’s head of human spaceflight, during a press call Friday afternoon. “We are committed to continue working with Boeing on bringing on their crew transportation…and we will go fly when we’re ready.”


Be that this decade or the next.


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36
#4580540 - 09/19/21 03:18 PM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Tequila Bottles Found on New Boeing Air Force One Jet

The good news never stops for Boeing.
So many more questions than answers after reading this article.


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36
#4629326 - 06/21/23 05:52 PM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Resurrecting this old thread because of some recent Boeing news.

First, more issues with Starliner, and the next flight is delayed indefinitely. CEO says they are still dedicated to it, but some estimates say they're spending at least $900,000,000 to fix stuff, which has to impact the bottom line.

https://spacenews.com/boeing-ceo-says-company-still-committed-to-starliner/

And the T-7A is making progress, but is years behind (as most programs like this are), and with fixed-price model, Boeing has lost 1.1b on it so far, and it's impacting USAF pilot training.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/t-7a-red-hawk-completes-182327890.html


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#4629333 - 06/21/23 06:43 PM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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not boing but https://www.bbc.com/news/business-65676421 <<Airbus experiments with more control for the autopilot

yeesh......as if most crashs they blame on pilot isnt the fault of auto pilot taking control from them already...next time i visit europe im paddling all the way.

#4632076 - 07/27/23 01:49 AM Re: Boeing’s Annus Horribilis [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Boeing has now lost $1.1 billion on Starliner, with no crew flight in sight


"A difficult summer for the Starliner program continued this week, with Boeing reporting additional losses on the vehicle's development and NASA saying it's too early to discuss potential launch dates for the crewed spacecraft.

Throughout this spring, NASA and Boeing had been working toward a July launch date of the spacecraft, which will carry two astronauts for the first time. However, just weeks before this launch was due to occur, Boeing announced on June 1 that there were two serious issues with Starliner. One of these involved the "soft links" in the lines that connect the Starliner capsule to its parachutes, and the second problem came with hundreds of feet of P-213 glass cloth tape inside the spacecraft found to be flammable."


Has no one on the Boeing team ever heard of the APOLLO ONE FIRE?

banghead


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