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#4499607 - 12/09/19 03:32 AM Current state of "Study" sims  
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Andy T Offline
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I am slowly getting back into flight sims. I currently have DCS FC3, A-10C and AV-8B. Besides them, what other "study" type sims are out there?
Also, DCS modules appear hit or miss. What are some of the modules with modern jets that are fairly feature complete?

Last edited by Andy T; 12/09/19 03:40 AM.
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#4499611 - 12/09/19 04:31 AM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: Andy T]  
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DCS still has no dynamic campaign after all these years so sadly it is something I quickly lose interest with.

Falcon BMS might be worth exploring if you want fantastic simulation of a real jet and a wonderful dynamic campaign. Plus... there are many additional theaters available to add on to it. There's really nothing else out there that can compete with BMS, frankly, in the modern era of jet sims.

Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 12/09/19 04:31 AM.
#4499632 - 12/09/19 09:51 AM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: Andy T]  
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Steel Beasts. Largely a survey sim, but sufficiently in depth to qualify as a study sim when it comes to fire control system simulation, at least for selected vehicles/land systems. Also, a pretty decent wargame, I'd say. But I'm biased.


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#4499660 - 12/09/19 01:32 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: Andy T]  
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Originally Posted by Andy T
I am slowly getting back into flight sims. I currently have DCS FC3, A-10C and AV-8B. Besides them, what other "study" type sims are out there?
Also, DCS modules appear hit or miss. What are some of the modules with modern jets that are fairly feature complete?


It seems that you are asking specifically for flight study sims so quite honestly DCS is the only game in town if we are talking about recently released content. I can tell you with certainty that the modules for the F-14, F-18 and MiG-23 are outstanding and very well fleshed out. The F-16 module is quite new so right now it's still a work in progress.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4499667 - 12/09/19 01:59 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: Andy T]  
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What PM said. I used to fly JF-18 incessantly between 1999 and 2007 and never felt like any other sim could hold a candle to it. When I finally got around to DCS in 2015, omg, it was like where has this been all my life? I started out with the A-10C which was the only plane I could afford at the time, but it was so realistic you were busy for a VERY long time learning it and tactics in it. Slow ground pounding was fine, but when the F/A-18C came out, all the flight hours I racked up in the A-10C were quickly surpassed by the Hornet. This was the legacy Hornet, but it was so full of realism and features that the Super Hornet I was flying in JF-18 was something I was not really wanting to pursue anymore (I had it on Win 7 and was trying to get it to work). It got way worse when the F-14 came out. The last time I flew a true F-14 sim was Fleet Defender in the 90s and they have come a great way since then...my hours in that are quickly surpassing those in the Hornet now.

The Bug and Tomcat are both early access but are very far along that you won't mind that some things are missing. The manuals are huge because of the realism involved. Now they just came out with an F-16 block 50 but it is still feature-minimized in early access. But the best thing about all of this besides the realism is that you can play in a sandbox...a guy in the A-10C can bomb targets while the guy in the F-14 can give him top cover to relieve the guy in the Hornet coming off station heading back to trap on the carrier with battle damage while another guy is the Iranian pilot trying to kill the A-10C on its ingress. MP rocks on this so much.

There is no dynamic campaign, but the latest DCS remarks are that they are working very hard on it.

v6,
boNes


"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot
#4499683 - 12/09/19 04:03 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: Andy T]  
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Yes, there are lots of complaints about DCS, but I think it's the most realistic combat flight sim out there. When I'm in one of those cockpits I am totally immersed. Not having a dynamic campaign isn't a deal breaker for me. There are plenty of missions and campaigns for these airplaines, both payware and freeware. I'm still flying my A-10C a lot, and I've had it, practically, since it came out. I'm eyeing that F-16, right now, though. And there is so much new stuff coming out. The Corsair and P-47 are must haves for me. Just wish all of this stuff wasn't 60 to 80 bucks a pop. But, really, when I think about how many years I've been flying that A-10, the investment doesn't seem all that much.


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#4499816 - 12/10/19 01:42 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
Just wish all of this stuff wasn't 60 to 80 bucks a pop. But, really, when I think about how many years I've been flying that A-10, the investment doesn't seem all that much.



Bingo. It may seem like a lot of money at first since consumers have been spoiled with paying $40 or less for PC games for a long time and of course the "Steam sales" but most hardcore flight simmers tend to spend hundreds of hours on flight sims so if you break down the money invested by hours played it turns out to be a very good deal!


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4499918 - 12/11/19 12:57 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: Andy T]  
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Just bought the F18 module. Great fun, but my goodness the game crashes A LOT. Hopefully now the F16 is out, they can carry on with the F4.

#4499926 - 12/11/19 02:11 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: archermav]  
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Originally Posted by archermav
Just bought the F18 module. Great fun, but my goodness the game crashes A LOT. Hopefully now the F16 is out, they can carry on with the F4.


Really? I've had it since it was first released and have never had it crash out. What happens when it crashes out usually?

Quote
Bingo. It may seem like a lot of money at first since consumers have been spoiled with paying $40 or less for PC games for a long time and of course the "Steam sales" but most hardcore flight simmers tend to spend hundreds of hours on flight sims so if you break down the money invested by hours played it turns out to be a very good deal!


Also factor in how most of us simmers also invest in TrackIr/VR, HOTAS, rudders, so $80 is a drop in the ocean--well bucket, really.

v6,
boNes


"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot
#4499950 - 12/11/19 04:54 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by Andy T
I am slowly getting back into flight sims. I currently have DCS FC3, A-10C and AV-8B. Besides them, what other "study" type sims are out there?
Also, DCS modules appear hit or miss. What are some of the modules with modern jets that are fairly feature complete?


It seems that you are asking specifically for flight study sims so quite honestly DCS is the only game in town if we are talking about recently released content. I can tell you with certainty that the modules for the F-14, F-18 and MiG-23 are outstanding and very well fleshed out. The F-16 module is quite new so right now it's still a work in progress.


I guess you mean the Mig-21, but if so it seems good. Even if I can't fly it.
The Viggen in DCS is excellent. It really feels like a hi-tech for the 1960s bird, and flying at Mach 0.95 at about 9.5m off the ground, dropping some sort of explosive goodies on some bad guys, and then getting out of there right quick is very fun. And the frequent decision process of "Power lines - over or under?"

There are actually a couple of fan made dynamic campaigns for DCS. If you go to the ED DCS forums, into the missions & Campaigns sub-forum, there is a stickied post for the Dynamic Campaign Engine, and there is also the 'liberation campaign'.

#4499957 - 12/11/19 05:26 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: Andy T]  
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The Viggen is supposed to be a mid 1990s avionics update variant.......a slightly low budget one that keeps all the wonderful 1960s ergonomics wink

BMS 4.34 came out in April and is still in officially backed development...very good value and if you love F-16s like me then still very much on the go list...........yes I do have the DCS version and VR before the Muh VR crowd chime in.


'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
#4499959 - 12/11/19 05:30 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: FlyingToaster]  
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Originally Posted by FlyingToaster

There are actually a couple of fan made dynamic campaigns for DCS. If you go to the ED DCS forums, into the missions & Campaigns sub-forum, there is a stickied post for the Dynamic Campaign Engine, and there is also the 'liberation campaign'.


Those aren't the same as BMS, though, are they? I'm talking an entire dynamic theater of war with conditions that carry over from one mission to the next, including all targets living and destroyed, plus the ability to jump into the theater at almost any time by setting up your own flights in a multiplayer environment and participating in either side.

The true dynamic nature of BMS is what I enjoy the most. I like being able to fail, and then fly the next mission and live with the consequences of that failure. What I dislike is repetition and the DCS static missions can be memorized and that eliminates any element of surprise. Every single mission I ever flew in BMS was different from the last, with or without human opponents.

#4500155 - 12/13/19 04:33 AM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: Andy T]  
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We will never see a dynamic campaign on the same level as what we got with Falcon 4's patented "Living Battlefield". Sorry but the modern day finances of game development will not allow it unless you are willing to pay about $400 for your copy of the game.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 12/13/19 04:34 AM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4500160 - 12/13/19 06:07 AM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
We will never see a dynamic campaign on the same level as what we got with Falcon 4's patented "Living Battlefield". Sorry but the modern day finances of game development will not allow it unless you are willing to pay about $400 for your copy of the game.


Or, older flightsims put 30% devtime into the planes and 70% into environment, gameplay and AI while new titles put 95% into planes since extremists gets a internet-seizure if a bolt under the fuselage comes with the wrong color.

#4500173 - 12/13/19 10:24 AM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
We will never see a dynamic campaign on the same level as what we got with Falcon 4's patented "Living Battlefield". Sorry but the modern day finances of game development will not allow it unless you are willing to pay about $400 for your copy of the game.


Or, older flightsims put 30% devtime into the planes and 70% into environment, gameplay and AI while new titles put 95% into planes since extremists gets a internet-seizure if a bolt under the fuselage comes with the wrong color.



Yep.


“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” - 2 Chronicles 7:14
#4500215 - 12/13/19 04:24 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: bones]  
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Originally Posted by bones
Originally Posted by archermav
Just bought the F18 module. Great fun, but my goodness the game crashes A LOT. Hopefully now the F16 is out, they can carry on with the F4.


Really? I've had it since it was first released and have never had it crash out. What happens when it crashes out usually?




mainly happens mutliplayer. Just freezes, and I can't cancel it via ctrl/alt/del so it's a switch off job. Then it sometimes crashes and goes back to desk top.

#4500217 - 12/13/19 04:41 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
We will never see a dynamic campaign on the same level as what we got with Falcon 4's patented "Living Battlefield". Sorry but the modern day finances of game development will not allow it unless you are willing to pay about $400 for your copy of the game.


Or, older flightsims put 30% devtime into the planes and 70% into environment, gameplay and AI while new titles put 95% into planes since extremists gets a internet-seizure if a bolt under the fuselage comes with the wrong color.


It's this extreme attention to detail and neglect of other aspects such as atmosphere and replayability that has many of us avoiding those newer sims. We would welcome a dedicated team of coders that focus on the classic aspects such as dynamic campaigns or style that made modern simming's ancestors so great.

#4500223 - 12/13/19 05:02 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: archermav]  
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Originally Posted by archermav



mainly happens mutliplayer. Just freezes, and I can't cancel it via ctrl/alt/del so it's a switch off job. Then it sometimes crashes and goes back to desk top.


How much RAM do you have on your system? You can get by with 16 GB but 32 GB is optimal.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4500224 - 12/13/19 05:07 PM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
We would welcome a dedicated team of coders that focus on the classic aspects such as dynamic campaigns or style that made modern simming's ancestors so great.




Yes, I'm sure all of us would welcome it. The hard part is finding such a team. It's not even just the US developers who have dropped out but also the European developers (outside of Russia of course).

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 12/13/19 05:07 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4500279 - 12/14/19 09:34 AM Re: Current state of "Study" sims [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by archermav



mainly happens mutliplayer. Just freezes, and I can't cancel it via ctrl/alt/del so it's a switch off job. Then it sometimes crashes and goes back to desk top.


How much RAM do you have on your system? You can get by with 16 GB but 32 GB is optimal.


32Gig, just tested each stick, all clean and groovy. 1080ti, ryzen 1700 and using an M2 drive.

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