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#4497972 - 11/22/19 06:18 PM Bernard Montgomery  
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All I could think of while I watched this video is just how much the actor who portrayed Montgomery in the film "Patton" absolutely and perfectly nailed his speech mannerisms and cadence. smile




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#4497975 - 11/22/19 06:27 PM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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That was Michael Bates. You might remember him from 'A Clockwork Orange' (he was the chief prison guard) or the sit-com 'It Ain't Half Hot Mum'.


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#4498019 - 11/23/19 12:03 AM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted by Chucky
That was Michael Bates. You might remember him from 'A Clockwork Orange' (he was the chief prison guard) or the sit-com 'It Ain't Half Hot Mum'.


Wow, i remember my old man used to watch It ain' half hot mum. Feels like a lifetime ago.


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#4498028 - 11/23/19 01:06 AM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
All I could think of while I watched this video is just how much the actor who portrayed Montgomery in the film "Patton" absolutely and perfectly nailed his speech mannerisms and cadence. smile




Jodl was executed as a war criminal in Nuremberg - after signing he said that he expected that "the Victor would treat Germany with generosity" ! that after they prolonged the war needlessly - a bunch of arrogant bastards ... I can imagine what the Allied officers felt watching them.

#4498061 - 11/23/19 10:37 AM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
All I could think of while I watched this video is just how much the actor who portrayed Montgomery in the film "Patton" absolutely and perfectly nailed his speech mannerisms and cadence. smile

Except as often the case of Brits in Hollywood movies, portrayed as a ineffectual buffoon. A martinet and intolerant loner, but a cautious general who put the care and survivability of his men at the top of his strategic priorities.

Michael Bates was somewhat typecast in blustering Regimental sergeant major roles, until he played the 'Bearer' in 'It ain't 'arf 'ot mum", a series which would be considered racist and homophobic today



#4498064 - 11/23/19 11:30 AM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: BD-123]  
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Originally Posted by BD-123
Michael Bates was somewhat typecast in blustering Regimental sergeant major roles, until he played the 'Bearer' in 'It ain't 'arf 'ot mum", a series which would be considered racist and homophobic today



...O/T, but a role ably parodied superbly by Windsor Davies in the same series, as Battery S'arnt Major 'Shuddup! Williams, the terror of the Concert Party:



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#4498072 - 11/23/19 01:35 PM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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One of the finest sit-coms ever made in my opinion.


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#4498165 - 11/24/19 01:34 PM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: 33lima]  
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Originally Posted by 33lima
Originally Posted by BD-123
Michael Bates was somewhat typecast in blustering Regimental sergeant major roles, until he played the 'Bearer' in 'It ain't 'arf 'ot mum", a series which would be considered racist and homophobic today



...O/T, but a role ably parodied superbly by Windsor Davies in the same series, as Battery S'arnt Major 'Shuddup! Williams, the terror of the Concert Party:




He seems basically like the British version of Gunnery Sergeant Hartman from Full Metal Jacket. smile


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4498181 - 11/24/19 05:31 PM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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"....he said that he expected that "the Victor would treat Germany with generosity" !"

Yes, well they treated Poland with generosity. And of course, Great Britain. The Soviets, too. And let's not forget how generous they were to the Jews. Arrogance beyond belief.


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#4498202 - 11/24/19 07:53 PM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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yes.............and now the people who helped defeat these monsters ( like Bomber Harris ) are being demonised


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#4498335 - 11/25/19 07:32 PM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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I can't remember where I read this or heard this or maybe saw it in some documentary. It was a few years ago. Montgomery prolonged the North Africa campaign so he could get the first of 300 brand new Sherman tanks.

He was also difficult to deal with. He gave Eisenhower and Bradley and Patton hell and everything had to be his way or the highway. It was good that Eisenhower was a good diplomat at smoothing difficult relationships.

Also Montgomery is the reason for Market Garden, which should never had been done, but again he needed to have his way or the highway. The fallout of Market Garden among Dutch civilians was brutal. They were starved to death by the Nazis. 4.5 millions Dutch civilians were affected and over 22,000 died of starvation in the Dutch famine of Winter 1944-1945.

Last edited by NoFlyBoy; 11/25/19 07:32 PM.

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#4498336 - 11/25/19 08:05 PM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: NoFlyBoy]  
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Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy


Also Montgomery is the reason for Market Garden, which should never had been done, but again he needed to have his way or the highway. .



That's only part of it. The Western allies were under intense political pressure to try and end the war by the end of 1944 and since it was assumed (incorrectly of course) that the German army in the West was totally broken, that a bold attempt should be made to try and achieve that.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4498338 - 11/25/19 08:54 PM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy


Also Montgomery is the reason for Market Garden, which should never had been done, but again he needed to have his way or the highway. .



That's only part of it. The Western allies were under intense political pressure to try and end the war by the end of 1944 and since it was assumed (incorrectly of course) that the German army in the West was totally broken, that a bold attempt should be made to try and achieve that.



I suspect that if Patton's 3rd had received the resources that went into Market Garden that he could have achieved a bit more than what was otherwise the case.


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#4498342 - 11/25/19 10:27 PM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Patton wanted to be the first to get to Berlin but political arrangements were made to let Russia take Berlin.

Hence why Ike told his armies to hold at the river Elbe and not advance east any further.

Imagine if Patton and his army took Berlin and occupied it long before the Russian army got there.

Europe and the world would had turned out different.

Of course that pale in comparison to 3 missteps on the British and French sides, one before WW2 begin and two after WW2 begin.

Britain and France should had stood up to Germany after it invaded Czechoslovakia.

Also there weren't that much of a German army it Czechoslovakia.

It could had been easily defeated by the British and the French.

That would had prevented the war from starting.

Then when Germany invaded Poland, Britain and France had 100 divisions on the French/Germany border.

They should had invaded Germany and the war would had ended there.

Then when the Battle of France begin, the French could stopped the Germany Army at Sedan.

The German Army including its artillery and Panzer division was gridlocked for miles.

A French reconnaissance plane saw it and reported back.

The French and the British should had coordinated everything they had in their air power and send them to totally annihilate the German Army and turn it into a 'highway of hell'.

The war would had ended there too.


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#4498349 - 11/25/19 11:42 PM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Ike, at the time, preferred that Russian blood be spilt taking Berlin rather than American blood.

I believe he later came to the conclusion that he had made a mistake.


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#4498378 - 11/26/19 11:03 AM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by NoFlyBoy


Also Montgomery is the reason for Market Garden, which should never had been done, but again he needed to have his way or the highway. .



That's only part of it. The Western allies were under intense political pressure to try and end the war by the end of 1944 and since it was assumed (incorrectly of course) that the German army in the West was totally broken, that a bold attempt should be made to try and achieve that.


actually - the German Army in the West was broken - completely broken,

what happened was that the Allies outrun their supply lines and could not advance, that gave the Nazis Wehrmacht time to regroup and having retreated so close to Germany, to resupply and once again put a cohesive defensive line.

that of course resulted in the German Army suffering horrendous casualties as the Allies pummeled their lines of supply and the front line.

The suicidal Nazi refusal to surrender meant that they took more casualties in the last year of WWII than in all the previous years - and for nothing.

an interesting take on why the German Army fought for so long:




#4498379 - 11/26/19 11:29 AM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss


an interesting take on why the German Army fought for so long:






I have not watched the video but the simple answer is that the Third Reich was a totalitarian regime so naturally it was going to fight until the the last man or at least until the dictator in charge was dead. Note that Germany only fought for ONE more week after Hitler killed himself.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 11/26/19 11:29 AM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4498380 - 11/26/19 11:31 AM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Ike, at the time, preferred that Russian blood be spilt taking Berlin rather than American blood.

I believe he later came to the conclusion that he had made a mistake.


Yup, and this played perfectly into Stalin's hands because Stalin didn't care how many Soviet soldiers he needed to sacrifice as long as he took Berlin.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4498381 - 11/26/19 11:45 AM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss


an interesting take on why the German Army fought for so long:






I have not watched the video but the simple answer is that the Third Reich was a totalitarian regime so naturally it was going to fight until the the last man or at least until the dictator in charge was dead. Note that Germany only fought for ONE more week after Hitler killed himself.


Hitler killed himself because the Soviets were just about to storm his HQ,

Jodl & the rest surrendered for the same reason, they did not want to be killed by the Soviets

Nazi Germany by then was 2/3 occupied by the Allies and it would be a matter of weeks before it was completely occupied.

As for totalitarian regimes fighting until the end, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria all surrendered,

the Nazi ideology embraced by the German people wholeheartedly was the driving reason for why they fought for so long.

#4498454 - 11/27/19 01:10 AM Re: Bernard Montgomery [Re: No105_Archie]  
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Originally Posted by No105_Archie
yes.............and now the people who helped defeat these monsters ( like Bomber Harris ) are being demonised


Throw in the "horror" of the twin Atomic bombs on Japan and how that is now being portrayed as "genocidal", and you start to see a trend.

Personally, I don't like the "trend".

Oh yeah, Monty; in my opinion, from reading no doubt biased American war histories, he was a pompous self serving ego tripper..

Kinda like every well known General/Admiral in history.


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