#4496960 - 11/12/19 03:41 PM
Re: “Two-seater fighters”?
[Re: DukeIronHand]
|
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 161
mvp7
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 161
|
I remember reading that the term "fighter" originally referred to armed two-seaters specifically.
The past "scouts" were being called fighters by WW2 but when exactly did the meaning of the term change?
Last edited by mvp7; 11/12/19 03:43 PM.
|
|
|
#4496965 - 11/12/19 04:17 PM
Re: “Two-seater fighters”?
[Re: RAF_Louvert]
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,532
DukeIronHand
Hotshot
|
Hotshot
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,532
High over the Front
|
.
oops, my bad on the F.E.8, thanks for catching it Duke. I will correct the list.
. Interesting you include the “Big Ack” in the two-seat fighter category.
|
|
|
#4496966 - 11/12/19 04:31 PM
Re: “Two-seater fighters”?
[Re: DukeIronHand]
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 4,879
RAF_Louvert
BOC President; Pilot Extraordinaire; Humble Man
|
BOC President; Pilot Extraordinaire; Humble Man
Senior Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 4,879
L'Etoile du Nord
|
.
Duke, I recall reading somewhere that it saw some, limited use in that role, though I can't imagine it was very effective in it.
mvp7, quite right about the WWI term "scouts" for the small, armed single-seat planes. As to the B/R planes, from what I've seen in contemporary writings they were often referred to as "reconnaissance types" early in the war, whether they were armed or not. Again, from those readings, when such mounts were armed comments started showing up about how they were good in a fight, or that a particular plane was a "real scrapper" or "a fine fighter". I imagine the term "fighter" evolved from these comments and observations and over the course of time became more identified with the scout planes, as they evolved into the better mounts to have in a dogfight. As to an exact time when the term change came about, I could not say.
.
|
|
|
#4496969 - 11/12/19 04:47 PM
Re: “Two-seater fighters”?
[Re: DukeIronHand]
|
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 161
mvp7
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 161
|
According to Wikipedia the term 'fighter' was originally used of aircraft like F.B.5 Gunbus since those were the first planes designed for fighting. The original concept of 'scout' was a fast single seat scouting aircraft that was not armed and would simply use its speed to do scouting and escape any danger. Considering how misleading the terminology had become even by 1915 I wonder why the term 'scout' lasted even as long as it did. I guess the RFC had bigger things to worry about at the time than fixing some semantic inconsistencies . I wonder when RAF first called a single seat fighting aircraft a 'fighter'.
|
|
|
#4496971 - 11/12/19 05:21 PM
Re: “Two-seater fighters”?
[Re: DukeIronHand]
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 4,879
RAF_Louvert
BOC President; Pilot Extraordinaire; Humble Man
|
BOC President; Pilot Extraordinaire; Humble Man
Senior Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 4,879
L'Etoile du Nord
|
.
I wouldn't necessarily trust Wikipedia on that point, and would like to see reference made to a contemporary work that actually used the term in that context. Just a brief scan through some of the contemporary books on my shelves did not yield evidence to support the Wiki claim. Even as late as 1917 I am seeing the following terms to describe aircraft types: scout, two-place, two-seater, armed two-place, armed two-seater, reconnaissance and armed reconnaissance. And these are used in the topics of aerial fighting. Along with these terms are the usual "pusher", "tractor", "monoplane", "biplane", "triplane", etc to describe aero types, as well as the various designer names. Nowhere, at least so far, have I found the term "fighter" applied to a specific aircraft type in any of my readings just now. But I'll keep looking on my shelves as times allows.
EDIT: Just looked through Loening's 1918 edition of "Military Aeroplanes", and again, no use of the term "fighter" in the context we are discussing here. Lots of the aforementioned terms, but no "fighter".
.
|
|
|
#4496980 - 11/12/19 06:45 PM
Re: “Two-seater fighters”?
[Re: DukeIronHand]
|
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 161
mvp7
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 161
|
Thanks. I'm again largely relying on wikipedia article with few sources but Vickers E.F.B and F.B series aircraft were abbreviations for (Experimental) Fighting Biplane. There's even a link to 1913 issue of Flight magazine that mentions a machine gun armed E.F.B.1(?) but it doesn't use the abbreviation or mention "fighting". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_E.F.B.1https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1913/1913%20-%200149.htmlIs the term "fighter" even used in any WW1 era sources or is it a neologism from interwar period? If it is then is it used about some specific aircraft models, a type of aircraft or all armed aircraft in general?
Last edited by mvp7; 11/12/19 06:46 PM.
|
|
|
#4496983 - 11/12/19 07:08 PM
Re: “Two-seater fighters”?
[Re: DukeIronHand]
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 4,879
RAF_Louvert
BOC President; Pilot Extraordinaire; Humble Man
|
BOC President; Pilot Extraordinaire; Humble Man
Senior Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 4,879
L'Etoile du Nord
|
.
mvp7, the term "fighting machine" was in use at the onset of the war to indicate the difference between an armed and an unarmed aeroplane. And as noted in your sources and mine it did not apply to a specific type, but was generic to mean any flying machine fitted with a weapon. I am still looking for a contemporary, (i.e. WWI era), source that uses the term "fighter" to describe an armed aeroplane, and specifically a single seat scout, (at this point I have looked through about fifteen such sources and have yet to find an example). I'm fairly certain that I've, in the past, run across the term being used in one or more WWI personal accounts written by pilots in describing a particular mount as something like "a good little fighter". But even these may have been written years later after the term came into the common vernacular to mean an armed single seat pursuit-style aircraft.
.
.
|
|
|
#4496987 - 11/12/19 07:50 PM
Re: “Two-seater fighters”?
[Re: DukeIronHand]
|
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 161
mvp7
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 161
|
What seemed like a simple matter is once again turning into surprisingly tricky subject . Bristol F2 is often called "Fighter" in modern text, including BAE system's own website. Is the name ever used in WW1 era sources or does it only appear later? I wonder if that name played any significant part in turning the meaning of word 'fighter' from a description of aircraft that fights well into meaning fighter as a less literal fighter type aircraft.
|
|
|
|
|