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#4496786 - 11/10/19 07:06 PM Historical Flight times  
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orbyxP Offline
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I was looking into how long WW1 aircraft could remain in the air. So, I found the website theaerodrome.com which has endurance for each aircraft. I then decided to see how closely WOFF simulates aircraft endurance.

Method of testing: Clear sky, QC flight, 10,000-13,000 ft, 100% fuel, 100% throttle until fuel reaches 0%.

Some results:


Unfortunately, all the aircraft in WOFF have the "fuelConsumption_frac" equal to "1". This works for some aircraft. However, most aircraft are way off and require changes to keep it within historical performance.

A side note: I had found JJJ's ME setting of 50% fuel, which intrigued me on why it was there. But it doesn't solve the problem of inaccurate historical endurance for most aircrafts in WOFF. It really needs to be done per aircraft in the xfm file.

#4496790 - 11/10/19 07:46 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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Is this something that could be put into a mod? I have always wondered what the flight-time comparisons were but never tested it like this


I got fired as the door man at a sperm bank.
Apparently it's in poor taste to tell leaving customers "Thanks for coming."

Former U.S. Army Medic - SGT.
#4496791 - 11/10/19 07:55 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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Good job there, orbyxP!
A fuel consumption mod would be great!


WOFF UE, BOC member, Albatros pilot.

#4496797 - 11/10/19 09:26 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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Good find Orbyx and definitely a mod-worthy topic.

Most of the fuel consumption rates in my FM mod files have been set to between about 1.2 and 1.6, depending on engine type and hp amount - those who enjoy flying gas-guzzlers might want to see how quickly the fuel disappears on those. From what I've been able to test, not too (terribly) quickly but definitely a change from the stock value of 1.0. I was tempted to increase the fuel consumption a bit more on some of the types but refrained from doing so - to allow for reasonable endurance times on the types.

A cruder solution is to set max. fuel, if you are flying the FMs on all the types as stock, to about 40 to 45% in the main sim menu - for Germans use about 20% fuel from the summer of '18 for elite units, and 10% fuel for secondary/defense units (to simulate fuel rations). If you are running my tweaked FM files, set fuel to about 80% in the sim menu and you should have a good approximation of the 1.8 to 2.0 values Orbyx has tested, for example, for the Alb. D.I.

Happy flying,
Von S smile

Last edited by VonS; 11/10/19 09:59 PM. Reason: Added info.
#4496798 - 11/10/19 09:30 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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JJJ65 Offline
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Originally Posted by orbyxP

A side note: I had found JJJ's ME setting of 50% fuel, which intrigued me on why it was there. But it doesn't solve the problem of inaccurate historical endurance for most aircrafts in WOFF. It really needs to be done per aircraft in the xfm file.


Yes, that is exactly due to real fuel consumption fix BTW, it was recommendation by OldHat based on his research.

Anyway - good work, orbyxP! thumbsup We can make mod based on your research. However, we need to test more than 70 planes yet :-(.

#4496817 - 11/10/19 11:29 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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Interesting find.
I have never been concerned with running out of fuel in the game (or even come close) but in historical accounts you’ll see it mentioned occasionally. Just figured it was the difference between the real world and the game world - plus the two dozen factors that go into fuel consumption on a real engine.

#4496849 - 11/11/19 10:43 AM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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One problem is making sure flights don't run out of fuel on an assigned mission - obviously in real life they'd make sure it's within the reasonable range but in a sim there's a lot of data that you'd need to process for all the theatre flights just for that 1 item, for 80 aircraft,


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4496851 - 11/11/19 11:01 AM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: Polovski]  
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Originally Posted by Polovski
One problem is making sure flights don't run out of fuel on an assigned mission - obviously in real life they'd make sure it's within the reasonable range but in a sim there's a lot of data that you'd need to process for all the theatre flights just for that 1 item, for 80 aircraft,


Excellent point.
As much as "we" try to simulate historical accuracy there are always limitations in a game environment. Home computers are great at number crunching but they still can't "think."
Sounds like I'll stand pat for now but if anyone is going to experiment I'd be curious how the game engine handles it and how many AI flights in the theater come crashing down.

#4496853 - 11/11/19 11:15 AM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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.

I've been adjusting fuel percentage to reflect more accurate flight times for years. And as Jara mentioned above, OldHat did a fair amount of work on this quite a while back when he was putting together his HardCore mod. orby, if you want to take on the task of a mod that would address this permanently across the board that would be great, but if memory serves others have found it was more of job than first imagined. An alternative that would be nice to have, and would most likely be much quicker to create, would be a chart that show's the stock flight times for all the planes in WOFF alongside the real world flight times for each. That way folks could tell at a glance what they should adjust their fuel percentage to before each mission.

Lou

#4496858 - 11/11/19 12:59 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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I have set my flight fuel level down to 80% when doing the “Start at Waypoint 1” thing when I am pressed for time but still....

Has anyone ever ran out of fuel in this game or even come close?

Unless you’re really taking some kind of tour, and not following “mission orders and waypoints”, I can’t possibly imagine it. Do some really fly for 2 hours (with mission long complete) with no contacts?
Lack of fuel in this game is not an issue - and one rarely mentioned in historical accounts. Even taking them down to real life numbers wouldn’t be an issue but, as mentioned above, the AI Flights/Campaign Engine may have an issue but even then I wonder.

#4496861 - 11/11/19 01:11 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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I, as well as Lou, set the fuel level for ALL flights to 50% before each mission (via ME) and never encounter any problem with AI flights crashing due to lack of juice. Even if there is any problem with some fuel shortage, you will never know, because WOFF does not register an outcome of AI flights (other than player's squad). If you really wish to check the mission outcome - planes either crashed or shot down - run ME after mission and click on Mission Debrief.

#4496862 - 11/11/19 01:23 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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Duke, after reading No Parachute I used to set the fuel lower and would make the patrol as long as Lee claimed they were "2+ hours" (using Jara's Mission Editor). I did this for a few days before I couldn't be patient anymore - multiple mission days made it go a lot slower. I've been very close, with some of the other flight mates turning for the nearest airfield while we were already on our way home. Added a nice "will I make it?" feel, but I didn't keep it going. I think I did what Jara did and put the fuel to either 50% or 60%

Last edited by AceMedic88; 11/11/19 01:23 PM.

I got fired as the door man at a sperm bank.
Apparently it's in poor taste to tell leaving customers "Thanks for coming."

Former U.S. Army Medic - SGT.
#4496868 - 11/11/19 02:07 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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orbyxP Offline
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I will reply to selected points that were raised.

However, I kindly ask @Polovski to see my reply regarding his comment because I feel that it will change the opinion.

Originally Posted by AceMedic88
Is this something that could be put into a mod? I have always wondered what the flight-time comparisons were but never tested it like this

Originally Posted by elephant
Good job there, orbyxP!
A fuel consumption mod would be great!


A JSGME MOD would overwrite other FM MODS, so another solution would need to be implemented. For example, if JJJ has time to incorporate it into the MultiMOD, that would be ideal. Because then it can cooexist with other FM MODS.


Originally Posted by VonS

for Germans use about 20% fuel from the summer of '18 for elite units, and 10% fuel for secondary/defense units (to simulate fuel rations).


Interesting subject regarding the fuel rations. I think fuel percentages here would work with the modified FM consumption and give interesting results. Will need to test what happens after I've completed the rest of the planes.


Originally Posted by JJJ65
Yes, that is exactly due to real fuel consumption fix BTW, it was recommendation by OldHat based on his research.

Anyway - good work, orbyxP! thumbsup We can make mod based on your research. However, we need to test more than 70 planes yet :-(.


Fuel percentage can work, but using 50% for all planes will turn out inaccurate results simply becase there are some planes which do not need adjustments because they are within historical performance. As well as some that require more or less. I believe that changing the FM for each plane would give more accurate results.

Yes, it is a lot of testing.

Originally Posted by DukeIronHand
Interesting find.
I have never been concerned with running out of fuel in the game (or even come close) but in historical accounts you’ll see it mentioned occasionally. Just figured it was the difference between the real world and the game world - plus the two dozen factors that go into fuel consumption on a real engine.


Even with the MODDED FM, you will have a hard time running out of fuel. See example below.


Originally Posted by Polovski
One problem is making sure flights don't run out of fuel on an assigned mission - obviously in real life they'd make sure it's within the reasonable range but in a sim there's a lot of data that you'd need to process for all the theatre flights just for that 1 item, for 80 aircraft,



This will require a two part answer:

1. In QC, the WOFF manager automatically compenstates by adjusting the distance of the flight path based on the amount of fuel consumption.

With a normal MODDED fuel consumption to 1.9 in Alb D1

[Linked Image]

with an extremely high MODDED fuel consumption to 5.9 in Alb D1

[Linked Image]

2. In QC and autopilot, the AI will fly between 71 to 85 % throttle, therefore, lower fuel consumption.

Plane: Alb D1
fuelConsumption_frac: 1.9

Flight Time, Range: (100% throttle, no autopilot): 1 hr 30 min, Range 277 km (185 km/hr x 1.5 hrs)

Flight Time, Range: (71-85% throttle, autopilot enabled): 2 hr 11 min, Range 385 km (185 km/hr x 2.11 hrs)

Therefore, it is a safe adjustment to use.


Originally Posted by RAF_Louvert
.
An alternative that would be nice to have, and would most likely be much quicker to create, would be a chart that show's the stock flight times for all the planes in WOFF alongside the real world flight times for each.


Yes, that is in my plans because I need to make that chart for myself in order to compare stock values and know when to adjust and not adjust.

Attached Files MODDED fuel to 5.9.jpgMODDED fuel to 1.9.jpg
Last edited by orbyxP; 11/11/19 02:08 PM.
#4496880 - 11/11/19 04:15 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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This subject (like all subjects here as it’s a 10 year old game) was discussed before. Many times. wink
About the only negative factor I recall was some people thinking it was a “cheat” as, at 50% fuel, the aircraft “manuvers better” but based on the thinking of how these aircraft perform under game load that may be a subject for another day.

#4496884 - 11/11/19 04:43 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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As a mod, fine, but as a game change, I think the Dev's have a LOT MORE IMPORTANT things they want to accomplish than this subject (both WOFF and WOTR since they are a small team and limited time).

1. As it stands now ALL PLANES are equal (AI & Player) when it comes to full fuel weight, you start changing it and things start changing in the game.

2. Since all squadrons from all countries are not in the game yet, having AI planes with more fuel (longer flying times) compensates for less planes being up in the air while you are on your mission. Otherwise the AI planes would have to take off and land earlier and with far less impact on your missions (especially for those who like a lot of air to air combat every mission)



CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4496886 - 11/11/19 05:15 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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For sure thanks Panama Red, yes every single aspect takes huge amounts of time. There's a zillion other things we could be doing that would be far more important.


orby - yes there is some basic adjustment /distance on fuel load, but QC isn't exactly taxing things. Its reduced by a thumb suck though. Go ahead and modify and if you test each aircraft type and with various missions and check AI performance in QC and campaign, dogfighting, in formation, escorting various bombers, take off ,landing and various airfields etc - and all is well then great maybe we can use it.

Don't forget the fuel load reducing affects where the weight is balanced. It can and often does therefore affect aircraft performance, mostly in dogfighting but could affect other things.

As Panama said, there are many other factors in campaign. For example finding replacement squads further away to fill a mission because nearer ones may be unavailable - due to aircraft type not yet available, or squads that don't exist yet and others I can't even remember (WM does all the campaign mission generation code).

Buy yes in theory it's good to do.



Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4496891 - 11/11/19 06:22 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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orbyxP Offline
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Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply to my post. As I said, I won't be making a JSGME mod. However, I will provide a chart for others to use. If JJJ incorporates it into the multimod, then it will eventually be thoroughly tested in all situations when it's active. If not, then at least you'll have a chart when I'm done testing.

#4496895 - 11/11/19 06:51 PM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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Great idea with Multimod, orbyxP. Would it be possible to have two csv tables, one with WOFF's vanilla "fuelConsumption_frac" for each plane and second csv file with modified values?

Last edited by JJJ65; 11/12/19 11:23 AM. Reason: Corrected variable type name
#4497216 - 11/15/19 02:57 AM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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Thank you JJJ65, I will do that when I have completed testing.

In the meantime, I will share the results for Allied and switch now to German for testing.

Testing method: QC air start (~6 to 10K ft), immediately switch to combat speed (100% throttle) with 100% fuel and running until 0% fuel.

The first test was done by flying each aircraft with default WOFF fuel consumption and recording how long it took before reaching 0% fuel. The second test was done after adjusting the fuel consumption in the xfm in order that each aircraft stays within 5 minutes of its historical flight time (endurance).

[Linked Image]

Attached Files allied endurance.jpg
Last edited by orbyxP; 11/15/19 03:19 AM.
#4497222 - 11/15/19 05:41 AM Re: Historical Flight times [Re: orbyxP]  
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The difference is very significant in several cases then being spot on in some.
And the fuel consumption frac is the current game setting?

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