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#4455003 - 12/27/18 03:42 AM GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys  
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Brit44 'Aldo' Offline
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I have been playing the air phase for turn one of the WitW's tutorial Operation Husky over and over while I learn the GUI. I have the game setting to full combat detail and the info data delays long enough to digest all of the info. If I commit all of the air forces available, it is over one hour to watch the air phase. I have to disable my flaky wireless card of this box, or I can assure you I will get a blue screen before the end of the phase. I want to say how impressed I am with the micro manageability of this simulation and the ability to let the computer resolve areas you wish to be reactionary

smile I am a rivet counter. A rivet counter is not limited to graphics. A rivet counter looks at every data point that interests them. With that being said, I am a knob when it comes to long term strategy. My comments may show frustration and/or desires, but they should not be read as insulting or expertise. I was naive enough to think I could write a AA report. I have come to the conclusion the the scope of this game is far above my ability to give a report "after". I can report as I go down this road of thinking. Having watched the tutorials and attempted the air half of the first turn multiple times, I can say that this game is a rivet counters dream.

Here is the progress of my AAR before I realized it was beyond my scope. I had to edit out many complaints of the game as I found where the GUI can do what I thought it could not, and I did not correct the spelling. I can add the pics if someone thinks it is of value:
War in the west, air operations.
Plaease correct me if I have a wrong opinion.

Note: when playing the game in windowed mode, you must move the mouse to the border of your screen to slide the game map. You can center the map on the current mouse pointer position by right clicking the mouse. You can zoom the map in and out with the mouse wheel.
The option to create unique folders for each scenario start is nice, but a pain when poking at the GUI and restarting multiple times. I know, read the manual ;P If you load the sceanrio multiple times, you must rename the optional save or have a large number of folders created.

Since I am learing, I am starting with the intrductory scenario "Operation Husky. I watched the tutorial videos several times while making the same attempts to start my first turn. I assume the tutorials for air and amphemious combat are good if you have already mastered War in the East or read the entire game manual. I am the type who prefers to sit in a dark room and poke at the GUI. I do not recomend this approch for such a thurogh, stragitic simulation.

Preperation to start the scenario is easy, watch and follow the tutorial videos. I prefer to change the air priorities. Again, this is covered in the tutorial. But, if you look at what is created then you will find it is far from optimal. It created all air operation around a specific grid location. I would not question the AI if the location covered the landing zones were better.
Createing any new priorties is where I ran into problems with the GUI. If you change the prorities, the execute command is removed until you "Set Air Directives" again. You can close the window or select summary to move to the air planning phase.
pic 1
Selecting summary lists the air directives created. You can go back to the previous screen by selecting the Go To Automatic Air Directive Creation link. Closing the summary screen or selecting any of the air forces will mve you to the air planning phase.
pic3
Your air forces are listed on the RH side of the screen. Clicking any of the commands brings up there current air directives.
pic2
If you click on the forces icon (outlined in the screen shot with red) you will return to the previous screen. Your clickable links are highlighted in light blue. Your current directives are shown to the left of the forces icon. You can add a directive by selecting the directive begining with an asteric (highlighted in pink). The details of the selected directive is listed below the list of directives. This is where you can edit the directives. Selecting the target data (highlighted in green) will clear the display and allow you to select a new target hex. The flight path is shown as a blueish line (highlighted in light blue). You can change waypoints by first selecting the waypoint (highlighted in yellow) an then selecting a new hex.
pic 4


From here, I have decided that the amphibious landing in Sicily can not take place on the first turn. The best I could do at manipulating the air directives was a 60:40 advantage of air combat. I want to delay the delay the landings for a 3 turns ( A guess). I realize that will have to inflict damage to infrastructure and resources greater then the delay will enable the Axis to reinforce the theater. Please realize it may take me a day or two planning these air directives. My goal is to delay the landing by less then 7 turns, while playing with fog of war active.]


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#4455028 - 12/27/18 04:12 PM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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I've been fooling around with the Axis side of this scenario. Managed to lose half of my air force in one turn. The air war is quite different from War in the East, so will take some time to learn the finer points.

Isn't the scenario you're playing 7 turns long?


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4455105 - 12/28/18 03:36 AM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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I spent most of my evening time reviewing each squadron, the AI loadout and searching the capabilities of the aircraft I was not familiar with. I managed to set my recon and air superiority for the first turn.
I did notice that you can set the timing of each air directive, located in the advanced section.


"Isn't the scenario you're playing 7 turns long?"
Ohh, you are correct. Looks like I should try one turn at playing air Marshall and get to slogging. While my playing will not do me much good in this scenario, I should keep this mindset when playing the grand scenario.

I like how you can control the air war, down to the individual pilots and as simple as letting the AI control the entire thing.

Attached Files new 1.jpg

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#4455611 - 01/01/19 06:09 AM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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I did not die on you. It takes over 3 hours to watch each aerial combat of the first day. The first play through was my mistaking the D1-D7 icons as priority. The result was fewer sorties then desired. The second attempt resulted in too many small sorties. On the third go through, I realized that I needed to set the primary target for each air directive, based on there mission.. I then realized that the AI prefers multiple sorties of smaller units.

Attachment 2: too ambitious recon, lost more then 20 recon.
Attachment 1: much better, but recon still over reaching and each flight needs tweaking.
Attachment 3 and 4: losses and effects of try 1.
Attachment 5 and 6: losses and effects of try 2.


As an attacker, you need to ensure that you have enough fighter cover. It took some playing with minimal sortie and requested sortie size to allow the AI to send an optimal number of flights for the entire week. You will encounter directives that can not find the minimal number of planes, but this is much better then loosing a flight of bombers to a superior number of intercepts. The air Marshall's job is to find this balance.

First and second try resulted in more pilot deaths on my side then the AI. There were impressive victories in each try, but they had just as many humiliating failures. The third attempt was going stunning, with an almost 2:1 aerial combat ratio. Then came day six and some bug had 24 strike aircraft of mine kill over 2K troops and guns. The total kept going up until I closed the combat window for that sortie.

Final attachment is the day 6 bug. I have not had the chance to do more then run it again in the lowest detail settings. I have saved files for each attempt and the results if you want to review them.

Attached Files air_1.jpgair_2.jpgground1.jpglosses1.jpgground2.jpglosses2.jpgbug.jpg
Last edited by Brit44 'Aldo'; 01/01/19 06:26 AM. Reason: attachment order

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#4455613 - 01/01/19 06:49 AM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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Day ending stats:
:P it was going so well

Attached Files day1.jpgday2end .jpgday2.jpgday4 start.jpgstart d5.jpgday6_start.jpg

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#4456766 - 01/10/19 03:29 PM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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Three hours for the air turn? While I have yet to really dive in to WitW that seems too much. What is the message level? The higher it is, the longer it takes. I use a setting of 1 in WitE. Of course maybe you don't mind the long turns, but that seems a bit nuts, especially for a small scenario like Husky.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4459008 - 01/28/19 01:25 PM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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I know the air turns take a long time, but this is a bit over the top.... smile

I guess this one's over?


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4460121 - 02/06/19 05:52 AM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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Changing the DVD drive of my computer allowed Micro$oft to make my system unusable. Placing the failed hardware back into the box allowed me to authentic WinBlows XP again. Microsoft can be blamed why I have been quiet. I have decided to work at leaving the internet.

My settings for the air combat were set to max. It takes 8+ hours to play through the first turn if there is a lot of A2A combat. I enjoyed following the flow of the battle, though I fell asleep many nights. The results can be found in the info screens, even if your output settings are set to the lowest. You will have to adjust the settings to fit your need to see the flow. You can close each combat text window to skip to the next encounter.

You need to understand each bomber types load for the mission you wish to assign. You need to learn how to move a squadron to a new airbase. You will need some luck, and the more flights you run result in attrition. Sorry, I have forgotten the word they use for operational losses as I have been playing War between the states. I have a love/hate for that game engine, and the south shall win.

You need to cripple the airfields that have fighters early on. Large bombs are not always the best loadout. Do not forget about night ops. As Allied, your best damage against airfields in the first turn is British, night bombers against the fighter air bases. Do not forget to hit the southern boot of Italy.

I found that using the American, daylight heavies as bait to draw in the enemy fighters works well for a a kill ratio. If you want to play this trap, you have to adjust your flight priorities so the CAP is available.

I thought that the P38's would be best for escort, but the 6 50's of the Curtis are better. Again, luck plays some factor. You need to learn each plane type to get the max from the air combat phase.

I am convinced that some game play balance is built into this studios's game engines, but I find this assumption is what keeps me trying new tactics.


Attached Files best 1.jpg
Last edited by Brit44 'Aldo'; 02/06/19 06:12 AM.

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#4460163 - 02/06/19 02:46 PM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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Originally Posted by Brit44 'Aldo'
It takes 8+ hours to play through the first turn if there is a lot of A2A combat.



This is madness. What is the report detail level you have it set to.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4464363 - 03/07/19 05:02 AM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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I have been turning my internet off in an effort to stay off line.

My setting are Max detail and close to max delay. I want to follow each dogfight. You may not think so, but it is entertaining to watch the text battles. More so because I spent so many hours setting each squadrons flight paths based on the last run through. But, do not think the results are scripted. This is why I watch each play through.

I have not bothered with the sea patrols or night fighters. I found that attacking the primary Axis fighters bases, even at the tip or Italy, with night bombing was the most effective for limiting the number of enemy fighters available in the day segment, You still need to use the USA heavies as bait.

My tactics trade aircrew for aircrew, but I have the advantage as Allied.

I have not played much this month. I am still trying to beat WBtS as South in easy mode. I have only made it to '63', but the Union is suffering political defeat enough that they do not emancipate. I keep saying "Are you kidding me, this is supposed to be easy settings:.


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#4464399 - 03/07/19 02:25 PM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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If this is set to max -- on purpose-- then I offer my apologies. A grand campaign would take years smile


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4471922 - 04/26/19 03:04 AM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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What little I have been playing has been with Matrix WBS. It is very frustrating to try and find the logic between initiative and the leader stats.
I have not done the first turn in WitW as ground (still) as I guess I am a masochist for sorting AI logic


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#4471981 - 04/26/19 05:21 PM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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Haha Aldo. I stopped waiting for your WitW AAR. It's been 6 months. The real war will have gone faster. biggrin

It's a shame more folks don't play these sorts of games around here, and even more so that no one posts about it if they do.

Can't recall the last strategy AAR I've read at SimHQ. This place is dead aside from politics and movies.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4475927 - 05/29/19 02:11 PM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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This game reminds me of an older game ( windows 2 ? ) It let U run the EU air war and Italy Sqn by Sqn or Group by Group ? then a data read out ( loses and kills after. Just the days set up after 1943 took a long time . The missions would start and show Icons to simulate the numerous a/c then weather causing cancellations and miss meet up. . Again slow as molasses. I think I made it thru 43-44 Losing every inch of the way. Finally gave up because of the slowness. However , I did enjoy it.

#4496059 - 11/05/19 05:46 AM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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Brit44 'Aldo' Offline
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OK, soooooo.... too recap. I am a big fan of SSI's SP series.
I, previously, played the snot out of the first 2 turns of War in The West's operation Husky and was extremely impressed with the complexity of this game engine's air war and it's GUI scale-ability.

I deleted all my saves and started the tutorial from scratch the other night. I think it was Friday. I used my theory of go big and brutal for the first turn of the air war. wink think 'big week'. I had the game engine set to full verbose. I knew it would take 3+ hours to watch every conflict.

It can take 4+ hours if you use a .5 second delay of the text output and micromanage every squadron you can put in the air.

I had to restart the game a few times while I relearned my strategy. I deleted the saves from before to free up HDD space. My method can be summed up as a meat grinder. I had minimal losses in AtA combat, but I had maximum loses in attrition. When I started the assault at the end of turn 3, I was behind 100 to 300 in victory points.

But, by the start of turn 3, the enemy AI was not flying. So.... It was time to try the land war. smile Turn 4 is still playing a 3rd attempt. (Sleep deprivations helps combat my OCD).

I had to check the manual to better understand the icons for the ground units and oooOOOooooo! I found out there are multiple types of ground combat that you can initiate. Not only that but you can assign Corp and Division assets to your attack. Though, be warned! 2 divisions attacking another (20K troops attacking 10K, fortified, troops) takes more then 4 hours to play out in full verbose. smile but it is fun to watch the attacker move forward from the start line.

Why am I happy? Because you can if you want, but you can also let the AI give you a progress report in less them a minute. This game engine is truly what some of us dreamed the SSI game engine could be.


TPA who TWI
#4496725 - 11/10/19 04:08 AM Re: GG's War in the West: Air Campaign: An Idiot's discoverys [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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Brit44 'Aldo' Offline
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Thought I would follow up after finishing the tutorial for the first time.

Lost the battle by less then 100 points because I delayed until the 3rd turn sending the ground invasion of Sicily. Victory points for land areas held is awarded each turn.

Air unit losses from attrition count the same as ground or air kills.

Pilots killed was near even. Pilots and ground troops killed in combat was about 2 too 1 in my favor.

I did a crap job of reassigning ground forces from command to each army. I left over 500 artillery assigned to AFHQ, while trying to find a port they could land on Sicily. Sicily ports are "just" a bit small (14). Command should not move. Attached units should be assigned to a new army, division, ect.. If you have a CC problem, the icons are outlined in red.

If you micro-manage, CAS is best assigned to the army or above. If you have enough air doctrines, you can assign air wings to individual fronts.

Setting combat verbose to 3 rather then 4 allows the most complex first turn, air phase to play out in less then one hour. What you do not see is the result, how, and why for damaged aircraft. You also do not learn how important durability is compared to the number of attacking aircraft.

Like others have said Dbond, I do not post as much as I read. I always read your posts. Your posts are always worth reading.


TPA who TWI

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