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#4494134 - 10/22/19 08:19 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted by Force10
I highly doubt a Dynamic campaign is even possible to code with the ever changing platform/modules that DCS has. You really need an "AI specialist" to code AI routines and AI has been a weak point in DCS's history IMO.


We did hire a specialist with this in mind. Still pretty early on, so I have only really seen meeting notes about it's development, but they are starting at the core and seem to be making a decent swing at it. Obviously time will tell, but it's feeling pretty good to me right now.

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#4494156 - 10/22/19 09:54 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted by Force10

"Financially survived" but at what cost? Using funds from one unfinished module to pay for further developing the previous unfinished module doesn't sound like quite the runaway success story you're making it out to be. It more sounds like they're struggling to keep the lights on actually.
I certainly did not imply that ED devs laugh all the way to the bank:) They are making ends meet, they are probably just making it, BUT! They've been doing that for over 20 years. They've adapted to the changes in game industry and survived through rampant CD/DVD piracy, the 2008, the "death of PC gaming" and what have you since then. The early access stuff is just one of the adaptations and I pray they will be able to continue adapting as there is no guaranteed winning strategy in business, every new month brings new challenges that have to be overcome.

New modules development does have to overlap with older code (not just older "unfinished" modules, but with developments in graphics, sounds and general core of the code) as different tasks take different amount of time and various programmers can not be sitting idle waiting for their buddies to finish whatever they are doing. Task flow management is often non linear and needs to correspond with cash flow. How this is to carry on and evolve - we shall see. But the important part for us customers is that, black swans notwithstanding - like the death of Igor Tishin or over a year in jail for the head of avionics programming, their modules DO leave beta stage -
Quote
Ka-50, A-10C, P-51, Dora, Mig-15, F-86, F-5, Huey Uh-1, Mi-8, L-39, F-15C, Su-27, Su-25, Su-25T, Mig-29A/C/G - are ALL finished.
with a disclaimer that no model of reality is ever complete by definition. Thus, even if DCS was to stop tomorrow, I would be eternally thankful to all the dedicated aviation nutjobs who made it happen instead of applying their exceptional maths modelling skills at some Moscow investment firm (there are many, it's not 1991).
Originally Posted by Force10

Let's not kid ourselves here...I highly doubt a Dynamic campaign is even possible to code with the ever changing platform/modules that DCS has. You really need an "AI specialist" to code AI routines and AI has been a weak point in DCS's history IMO.
DCS AI could become really good fun judging by the recent updates with AI blindspots, but on the ever changing platform being incompatible with super elaborate dynamic campaign I do agree and not holding my breath for Falcon4 beater, it'll be more like Rise of Flight in all likelihood. (still ok I suppose, particularly when added to DCS native strengths - physics, graphics, sound, and scripted campaigns with voice overs)

Originally Posted by Force10

While I understand why DCS has appeal to many...
The aerodynamics are unmatched in DCS imo. The fact that stuff like this is possible makes it as deep a sim as Falcon4, just in a different way



Originally Posted by Force10

there is probably just as many like myself that don't even fly the modules I payed for and instead...fly a modification to a 20 year old sim. I like feeling like a combat pilot in an immersive war scenario with a lively battlefield. DCS has a LONG way to go to get there...if it's even possible.You have valid points about Falcon 4.0...but can you explain why so many people fly it instead of flying DCS?
There are super immersive static campaigns in DCS (The enemy within being one, but one of quite a few), but as far as dynamic stuff goes - yep, at the moment there are no signs that Falcon is about to lose its throne. I have both on my PC:)




Last edited by Borsch; 10/22/19 10:59 PM.
#4494161 - 10/22/19 10:18 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Good post Borsch...some decent points there. I will just add this:

Originally Posted by Borsch
as there is no guaranteed winning strategy in business, every new month brings new challenges that have to be overcome.


One pretty good strategy is to finish the product your customers already paid you for in a reasonable timeframe. As in...not years. This point alone has surely cost ED some revenue...Fans of ED that would make a day 1 purchase in years past are more cautious now and holding off on purchases. wink


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#4494167 - 10/22/19 10:51 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted by Force10
One pretty good strategy is to finish the product your customers already paid you for in a reasonable timeframe. As in...not years. This point alone has surely cost ED some revenue...Fans of ED that would make a day 1 purchase in years past are more cautious now and holding off on purchases. wink

To be fair, the F/A-18 is an unfortunate outlier, for the most part ED's own modules were quicker to advance (while being less complex of course). I'd hazard a guess that their head of avionics guy ordeal and the passing of Mr Tishin both contributed. At least, ever since the jail drama came to an end, development sped up noticeably it feels. I also remember murmurs on the Russian forums that one or more of their core programmers sold out/quit their job - about two years ago. May have been another factor if true.
It should be worth it in the end:

Although the F-16 is what I truly care about smile

Last edited by Borsch; 10/22/19 10:53 PM.
#4494234 - 10/23/19 12:09 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
Originally Posted by Force10
I highly doubt a Dynamic campaign is even possible to code with the ever changing platform/modules that DCS has. You really need an "AI specialist" to code AI routines and AI has been a weak point in DCS's history IMO.


We did hire a specialist with this in mind. Still pretty early on, so I have only really seen meeting notes about it's development, but they are starting at the core and seem to be making a decent swing at it. Obviously time will tell, but it's feeling pretty good to me right now.


Force10 has made some quite valid points regarding the dynamic campaign implementation. Many new aircraft modules by ED and 3rd party developers etc to cater for a dynamic campaign to suit every aircraft, it would be impossible to code for every aircraft genre.

DCS world comes with the SU-25 and the P-51D. If ED was to offer DCS world with a dynamic campaign for free, it would be Apache600's dream come true, a dynamic campaign based around the museum relic campaign where the 'free' P-51 can go up against modern day SAM, AAA and still play a part in the dynamic campaign (with invincible set to ON in the settings of course)

It would mean a dynamic campaign for modern day fighters, then a separate dynamic campaign for WW2 aircraft (for the P-51). The WW2 assets would then need to be made 'free' to blend in with the 'free' SU-25 and P-51D. I can't see that happening, not in the near future or in 2022 as predicted for this Dynamic campaign.

This 'MAC' however.....could be palmed off as MAC 'Gold' like Janes longbow gold, Janes USNF Gold etc etc. To make this dynamic campaign actually viable, only a select few aircraft could be a part of the series. Basic aircraft such as what is being offered in FC3 and the newer MAC to be released. That way more consumers would be able to enjoy this dynamic campaign with out having to invest $80 per module that is 'full fidelity' (name taken from VEAO)

Falcon 4 had one dynamic campaign based around 1 aircraft. DCS's dynamic campaign would need to cater for individual aircraft such as the L-39, C-101, Uh-1 etc etc.....it's impossible.

What is possible is including the Dynamic Campaign along side a select few of that aircraft such as what is offered in FC3. Not as hard to substitute the F-15 for the Mig-29 etc and swap out the US forces for Russian forces. If this Dynamic campaign is to be anywhere near viable, it won't associate itself with every available module. It will be up to each 3rd party developer to create and implement their own dynamic campaign to suit their own modules. ED won't cater for the F-14, harrier etc or build a dynamic campaign where 3rd party modules will be easily swapped out from released MAC 'Gold' aircraft.

It has been mentioned that the 'free' mod skyhawk has ground radar already implemented. Good on the mod maker for getting that out for free.....I can't see ED building a dynamic campaign based around 'free' mods or endorsed 3rd party modules. I can foresee ED building a dynamic campaign based around their own modules....such as what will be offered in MAC 'Gold'

If we want a dynamic campaign sooner, we'll we need to press the 3rd party developers for one. ED won't have the resources to implement a DC that includes 3rd party modules. When ED do release one.....it will mean buying MAC Gold or similar titled release in the LOMAC\FC3 establishment. The earnest should not be on ED to create a DC that incorporates 3rd party modules to make the DC successful.

Those developer of the Gazelle have done nothing over the last 3 years....Perhaps they could release the 1st dynamic campaign.....or Apache600 who has done zilch but carp on about how good his campaign 'was'....get cracking on a dynamic campaign.

If people want a DC earlier than 2022 than lobby the 3rd parties for one.




#4494518 - 10/25/19 12:59 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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From today's newsletter....

Originally Posted by ED
Apache600 will be releasing the beta version of ED's 1st ever dynamic campaign for the F-16....


I am looking forward to investing money in this.









**Disclaimer: may or may not be true

#4494536 - 10/25/19 02:49 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Previous post was before the newsletter was released.....

Sadly, Apache600 did not release the F-16 dynamic campaign....

However, A-10 cockpit looks supurb all polished and what not.

The Nimitz update sounds like it is progressing well and look forward to that release when it happens.

Before I forget, good to see Polychop working on the Gazelle. I thought it was a completed unfinished module.

#4494575 - 10/25/19 06:29 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Polychop is working very hard to turn themselves around and address customer concerns. Given what I've seen on the lately, they are making an honest effort to make good, and of course they've got the ball rolling on the Kiowa.


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#4495777 - 11/02/19 10:03 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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1. If you as a developer are coming to 3d party forums like this one to figure out whats wrong with your company, that's BIG RED FLAG.

2.. No money form me for the Viper until F18 is complete. Diverting development resources away form the Hornet to the Viper IS NOT COOL. I bought the EA Hornet 16 months ago and there's still NO TWS!

3. The fact that A2G radar in the Hornet is on the back burner is very disturbing. As a ground attack platform, A2G radar in the Hornet (and Viper) is VITAL. I use it ALL THE TIME in Falcon BMS, the GMT mode especially. Not making it a priority because it lights you up to ground defenses is lame garbage. What IDIOTs are buying into that?

4. No amount of apologizing and grovelling from NineLiner is going to repair 10 years of arrogance and customer abuse on the ED forums.


"Learning to fly the Falcon is just your ticket to the dance" - Pete 'Boomer' Bonanni.
#4495805 - 11/03/19 04:33 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Boomer]  
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I don't think my intent coming here was to figure out what is wrong with anything, my intent in coming here, and was really on my own was to try and mend some bridges. I don't pretend to assume everything is fixable, but I think its worth the effort.


Originally Posted by Boomer
1. If you as a developer are coming to 3d party forums like this one to figure out whats wrong with your company, that's BIG RED FLAG.

2.. No money form me for the Viper until F18 is complete. Diverting development resources away form the Hornet to the Viper IS NOT COOL. I bought the EA Hornet 16 months ago and there's still NO TWS!

3. The fact that A2G radar in the Hornet is on the back burner is very disturbing. As a ground attack platform, A2G radar in the Hornet (and Viper) is VITAL. I use it ALL THE TIME in Falcon BMS, the GMT mode especially. Not making it a priority because it lights you up to ground defenses is lame garbage. What IDIOTs are buying into that?

4. No amount of apologizing and grovelling from NineLiner is going to repair 10 years of arrogance and customer abuse on the ED forums.

#4495814 - 11/03/19 08:13 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Boomer]  
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Originally Posted by Boomer
What IDIOTs are buying into that?

DCS core customer base, the online guys flying in clear blue skies falling for the "TGP is the better option" Nick Grey tricked them into believe and soon enough the brownnosers ran into his arms.
Too many years of reports from 25kft orbiting jets over Afghanistan have made everyone totally forget the zero visibility European Theater and pretty much any region not in desert area and its zero clouds.
As reported/commented here by someone the online competitive community (soon to be ED's only customer group) only flies in clear blue skies due to "not sync'ed clouds".

And no, Nineline didn't come here to build bridges, he was forced here after Nick Grey had a shock reading comments over at Hoggit and suddenly 9L and BN started to interact and post all over the place and 9L started to post here too with this "Great unbanning" being promoted on both sites (most probably other sites too).

I assume Nick consider sales of the Viper module is all time low in comparison to previous modules.

This move is not, in any way, due to these guys good intent but most probably a requirement to keep their jobs.

#4495844 - 11/03/19 02:53 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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TGP is excellent AFTER you have located the targets, using the GMT mode of A2G radar for movers and GM mode for statics.

Falcon BMS, (and thank Gawd we can mention that EXCELLENT sim here, you sure cant over at the ED forums under ANY circumstances) models this to perfection.

I dont think its a good idea for ED to pick a fight with BMS; they are going to be rolling out a DX11 version in the not-distant-future with grafix that will approximate what DCS offers and that will keep the BMS community together. There will be no great migration to DCS as someone here suggested. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. The BMS community is a long standing hardcore simming group that does NOT suffer fools or half baked sims gladly.

Example: in DCS I need a direct hit from my 1000 pound bomb to destroy a truck? When is that long-standing bug going to be fixed?!? Enough with the DCS EA #%&*$# show. Fix your bugs first.

My guess is the EA-money-tree is done. We are not getting fooled again.


"Learning to fly the Falcon is just your ticket to the dance" - Pete 'Boomer' Bonanni.
#4495880 - 11/03/19 09:48 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden

And no, Nineline didn't come here to build bridges, he was forced here after Nick Grey had a shock reading comments over at Hoggit and suddenly 9L and BN started to interact and post all over the place and 9L started to post here too with this "Great unbanning" being promoted on both sites (most probably other sites too).




No one told me to come back here.

#4495936 - 11/04/19 12:49 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Boomer]  
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Originally Posted by Boomer

3. The fact that A2G radar in the Hornet is on the back burner is very disturbing. As a ground attack platform, A2G radar in the Hornet (and Viper) is VITAL. I use it ALL THE TIME in Falcon BMS, the GMT mode especially. Not making it a priority because it lights you up to ground defenses is lame garbage. What IDIOTs are buying into that?


DITTO!!

Anyone that has a minimal knowledge about military aircraft know that A2G radar is VITAL (and standard procedure) when performing A2G strikes, this for aircraft like for example the F/A-18 and F-16.

Moreover, new SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) modes which most of the most modern fighter/strike aircraft currently have (or are starting to have) will make the A2G radar even more VITAL than ever before, but here I digress.

And as other already pointed out correctly TGP is not an "All Weather capable" sensor, while the Radar is!

#4495982 - 11/04/19 05:53 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Boomer]  
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Originally Posted by Boomer

My guess is the EA-money-tree is done. We are not getting fooled again.


Unfortunately, this couldn't be further from the truth, the ED forums are full of "take my money" nuts who will buy up anything ED vomits out. The Mi-24 thread is full of fanboys tripping over themselves to worship at the altar of ED same with the P-47 thread ( also begs the question, who is actually still buying ED WWII modules with the IL-2 BoX series out there actually delivering solid and consistent content is beyond me nope )

As one former candidate and now POTUS said, he could walk out into the middle of the street and shoot someone and not lose a single vote, that is basically what ED has running for them when it comes to their fanatical fanbase and that is why exactly why they will never actually change.

#4495990 - 11/04/19 07:01 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I don't necessarily agree with that. The pool of die-hards is still relatively small in the grand scheme of sales in an already niche market.

Given that more and more people are turning away, voting with their wallet and waiting to see finished products then ED are in a world of pain if they dont drastically make some changes.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4496198 - 11/06/19 02:36 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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17 people in my squadron. 3 purchased Hornet and Viper. I guess I should upgrade from Win7 to 10 but I think I'll wait till those two modules are complete. Win12 should be getting Service Pack 1 by then.

#4496200 - 11/06/19 02:52 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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The hornet has a lot of capability now; A2G radar won't be complete this year IIRC. F-16 needs more patching up - the FM lacks the correct acceleration (probably too little thrust) and there are some things that make A2A annoying (not referring to IFF ... ) but those should be sorted quickly I hope - has to do with ACQ modes and the missile reject switch. Of course, data-link is coming as well.

That covers some basic operation, not sure about more in-depth stuff like nav etc.


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#4496237 - 11/06/19 09:14 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
The hornet has a lot of capability now; A2G radar won't be complete this year IIRC.



Not surprising, probably won't be next year either at this rate. They've changed the reasoning so many times on why they can't complete A/G radar...everything from real pilots don't use it screwy ...it'll illuminate you to ground defenses. ... the current maps aren't formatted properly to allow its implementation... its not a priority.... excuse excuse excuse. Honestly, I think I'd respect ED more if they just said, "We've already got your money suckers"

#4496238 - 11/06/19 09:20 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: reconmercs]  
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Originally Posted by reconmercs
Originally Posted by GrayGhost
The hornet has a lot of capability now; A2G radar won't be complete this year IIRC.



Not surprising, probably won't be next year either at this rate. They've changed the reasoning so many times on why they can't complete A/G radar...everything from real pilots don't use it screwy ...it'll illuminate you to ground defenses. ... the current maps aren't formatted properly to allow its implementation... its not a priority.... excuse excuse excuse. Honestly, I think I'd respect ED more if they just said, "We've already got your money suckers"



Actually both FLIR and A/G radar are having tasks done by the terrain team right now, these 2 issues along with a couple of others, such as night lighting have to go through them first.

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