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#4494014 - 10/22/19 10:35 AM OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots?  
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Rolling up pilots in the Pilot Creation Screen normally the only place I have to pause and think is my starting rank. Try to get a balance of historical accuracy and the "thrill" of tangible career progress of game promotions but it has me pondering.
How were NCO and Non-Rate pilots (and Observers) treated by the various air forces? German, French, and British? The Americans are a little easier for the pilots but what about the observers? Think most (all?) were also Officers.

For the Germans I have, interestingly, never read anything about it despite the rather large amount of literature available. I know little of the French side of things.
There is more, but slight and sometimes almost whispered, things in the RFC/RAF. Was there a force wide policy or was it kind of based on the individual units?

For example I think I have read (and I've been reading for several decades forgetting more then I currently know so forgive me) that in some Brisfit units pilots and observers all ate together. Other times I have read that Sgt pilots ate and lived with the ground personnel rarely being seen outside of the flight line by the officer gentlemen. Rank was rank for messing and quarters. Was that always the case?

Also read that, by some apparently, James McCudden (NCO pilot promoted to Major eventually based on undeniable skill and talent) was treated rather shabbily by certain other officers based on his "lowly origins." For the British overall things are often hinted, with some obvious resentment, but its seems to be all over the place and on the quiet side.

Any historians want to chime in here about the British, French, and German NCO and non-rate pilots?

#4494017 - 10/22/19 10:59 AM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Britain was by far the most blatant about the class differences between the landed gentry and everyone else. Officers and "other ranks" were seen as separate and not equal. The RFC/RNAS is where you see this changing a bit because they allowed ORs to serve as pilots, though a lot of folks felt this was a bad idea. And yes there was resentment towards individuals like McCudden who were not of the proper class or education to be an officer. Some commanding officers took the approach that if they served together as equals in the air they should also do so on the ground, but these were the exception.

This same sort of thing existed on the German side as well, but to a somewhat lesser extent. The class system was strong there but was breaking down, and fell apart completely by the end of the war. Interestingly, one could become "landed" if it was ordered by the nobility. This is what happened in Richthofen's case when he became von Richthofen by royal decree.

The French were the most even-handed when it came to the rank differences and this is most likely due to them having thrown off the aristocracy a century before and adopting a more "we are equals" attitude.

American pilots had to be officers with almost no exceptions, which always surprised me given our own idea that all men are created equal, (of course it's been obvious from the git-go that a lot of people think some are more equal than others).

.


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#4494021 - 10/22/19 11:18 AM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Thanks Lou.
I suspected as much with the British though, over the years looking back on it, you wish to avoid stereotyping or disregarding things based on my modern view of things. Sounds like it may have been up to the Squadron CO...maybe. Interestingly life in the Australian Squadrons was reported to be much more “Democratic.” If that’s not a dirty word any more!

And interesting observation about the French.

I frankly expected it as much with the Germans (maybe I’ve been watching “The Blue Max” too much. smile ) but never have anything about their treatment of NCO pilots. Maybe it’s only officers writing the books or it was a society where it wasn’t given a second thought as it was expected. Guess I have to wonder how widespread NCO pilots were. I know early in the war, in two-seaters, an NCO pilot and Officer Observer was apparently fairly common as gentlemen didn’t “drive.” I know several of the big aces started as NCO’s. Where’s Olham when we need him?

#4494022 - 10/22/19 11:22 AM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Are there cases where a major ace did not lead the flights he participated in because of having low rank? It definitely seems that aces in most air forces had quite a lot of freedom when it comes to modifying the aircraft and going out on their own.

In most military branches the unimporance of skill and even experience compared to rank would go without saying but air war definitely seems to have been much more individualistic in all regards than other forms of warfare.

In WOFF I usually start my careers as lowest officer rank for middle tier planes and more typical chain of promotions.

#4494026 - 10/22/19 11:41 AM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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mvp7, rank and experience led the flights, out of necessity and common sense respectively. But once back on the ground even aces like McCudden were still just temporary gentlemen in the eyes of a lot of upper class folks. The term itself, "temporary gentlemen", was an open dig at them, the idea being that once the war ended these men would no longer have their commissions, which again was an honor meant only for those of proper breeding and education

Yes, air warfare was more individualistic but that did not translate to equality on the ground. While the public loved its air heroes, the class system was still very much in place when it came to how they were treated by certain people.

.

Duke, you are quite right about pilots being seen as chauffeurs early on, but that changed quickly when the single seat scouts became the place to be for the daring individuals who wanted to make their mark.
And to Australia, that is another story altogether as they seemed much more even-handed in terms of the rank thing. I imagine that goes to how they started out as a country.

.

#4494027 - 10/22/19 11:42 AM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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In Malaula, the book of Julius Buckler, he mentioned that once he was the leading ace, but still lower rank than the others, they usually started, formed up, went towards the lines according rank etc. like they had to do according custom and protocol etc.. But at some point he "unofficially" took over the lead, until they went back again. Then the highest rank took over again. So obviously it was rather common that rank outplayed skill or killnumbers and their procedure with Buckler was highly unofficial.

Also being a high scoring ace does not necessarily mean that they were good leaders in the air and vice versa.

#4494029 - 10/22/19 11:44 AM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Excellent points Creaghorn, thank you. I'd forgotten how that was made mention of in the Buckler account, a perfect example of how ingrained the whole idea of class was in certain countries. Given his experience, skill, and abilities Buckler should have been ranking officer.

.

#4494030 - 10/22/19 11:47 AM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Fascinating. Sounds like a book to hunt down.
Did he make any mention of quarters and mess arrangements for the NCO pilot on the ground?

#4494035 - 10/22/19 12:16 PM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Duke, I took a quick skim through my copy and a mention of interest to this point is made by Buckler on his posting at FAA 209:

"I still ran into a little bit of embarrassment when Hauptmann Funck indicated to me that I should take the seat to his right. I had in fact heard that in many an officer's mess it was custom that every new arrival was the guest of the commander on the first day. That this custom also extended to non-commissioned officers surprised me. To be sure, it was war, and we were all fighting for the Fatherland."

#4494036 - 10/22/19 12:17 PM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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And not just a German thing though this may not go in the same realm as “class differences.” Or maybe it does.

Rickenbacker writes in his book that when Quentin Roosevelt (son of Teddy Roosevelt) arrived at the front as a newly minted officer and pilot the military brass insisted he be the flight leader despite all flight members (all officers) having much more experience then he.
Reportedly he did the same thing as the Buckler story. Lead on take-off then one of the more experienced flight members took over when airborne. Never led a flight till his death.

#4494037 - 10/22/19 12:20 PM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Originally Posted by RAF_Louvert
.

Duke, I took a quick skim through my copy and a mention of interest to this point is made by Buckler on his posting at FAA 209:

"I still ran into a little bit of embarrassment when Hauptmann Funck indicated to me that I should take the seat to his right. I had in fact heard that in many an officer's mess it was custom that every new arrival was the guest of the commander on the first day. That this custom also extended to non-commissioned officers surprised me. To be sure, it was war, and we were all fighting for the Fatherland."



Nice find. And his reaction speaks volumes I suppose.
Sounds like he ate there as a matter of course despite it being an “Officers Mess” though I may be reading into it.
Probably much depended on the will of the Squadron CO. Course being invited to the table doesn’t mean you had your bread buttered for you either. Probably some officer pilots were very class conscious and some not I would think.
Guess we’ll leave the whole “regular” and “reserve” officer thing for another day!

#4494039 - 10/22/19 12:22 PM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Duke, to your Rickenbacker comment, it doesn't matter which military you're in, the logic, (or lack thereof), is still the same: If you're the ranking officer you're in charge, and by default must then also know what you're doing.

To Buckler dining with the officers as a regular thing, I have seen similar indicated in other German pilot's accounts, that pilots did dine together regardless of rank or social standing. I don't know that this "equality" extended much beyond the mess hall in a lot of cases however.

.

#4494047 - 10/22/19 01:15 PM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Hi all,
McCudden was to be posted as CO of No.85 Squadron in France, but the squadron officers refused to have him as their CO, partly due to his 'middle class' upbringing. He was eventually given command of No.60 Squadron, but was killed on his way to take up his post after suffering an apparent engine failure in his SE5a.

Mike


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#4494054 - 10/22/19 01:42 PM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: Sandbagger]  
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Originally Posted by Sandbagger
Hi all,
McCudden was to be posted as CO of No.85 Squadron in France, but the squadron officers refused to have him as their CO, partly due to his 'middle class' upbringing.


Wow! Lemme say that again. Wow!! Aaaaaand wow. Lemme get another in. Wow!
I am, even assuming a wildly rigid society, astonished as that is quite over the top. Much worse then I thought.
Now I see where the hinted resentment is coming from. Not from McCudden himself (whatever he may have thought but I can imagine) but from all that knew him and the other NCO pilots. Wow.
And the fact that it was allowed to stand, and every officer of the 85th not posted out for it, speaks loudly of the attitude of the higher ups too. I would have cleaned them out and they’d be flying Be2’s in Palestine.

What a personal affront. Especially after all that he had done not only in the air but on the ground too. Apparently he was quite the amateur aeronautics engineer also always tinkering with stuff.

Thanks though Sandbagger. From now on I start as a Sergeant when flying British.
“Not just Willy...”

#4494055 - 10/22/19 01:52 PM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Thanks for that nugget Mike. Yup Duke, it was that bad. As further example of the class division, the excellent 1970's BBC series "Wings" had it right too. A must watch for anyone with our bent for WWI aviation. Too bad that series only lasted one season.

.

#4494056 - 10/22/19 02:00 PM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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I have 'Wings' series 1 and 2 on dvd mate!
The first series was shown in 1977, the second a year later in 1978... and yes, I watched them avidly at the time!

Last edited by Trooper117; 10/22/19 02:03 PM.
#4494057 - 10/22/19 02:05 PM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Trooper, I have it on DVD as well. Did they really list it as two seasons? With 26 episodes I thought it was only considered as one season. I was stationed in England when it first aired and I watched 'em all. Good stuff!

.

#4494058 - 10/22/19 02:09 PM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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They ran from Jan to March on both years Lou... and having said that it has been years since I watched them. I think I might start to watch the whole lot again!

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#4494059 - 10/22/19 02:12 PM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Thanks for the clarification Trooper, I didn't remember it running only in the spring. That was a long time ago now, and my memory is not what it used to be, not that it was much to begin with mind you. smile2

.

#4494063 - 10/22/19 02:27 PM Re: OT: Treatment of NCO Pilots? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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I have Wings season 1 - 12 episodes and season 2 - 13 episodes


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