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#4493560 - 10/19/19 01:52 AM Rear Gunner View Bug?  
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Lucky Shot Offline
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Hello all. Just getting back into WOFF. I had a copy before the UE edition. I have purchased & am really enjoying the platinum edition. It has been working great, except for one issue. When I move to the rear gunner position in a 2 seater, my view is turned 90 degrees and is on the pilots cockpit floor. I have tried this in the Bristol F2B & the Sopwith Strutter. I am using Track IR. I did not see anything in the FAQ, or in a forum search. I am curious if anyone else has had this issue. Did not want to make a bug report until I had more info.
Thanks


James Overman
#4493572 - 10/19/19 07:43 AM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Guess I would be more surprised if that didn’t happen when switching positions in TrackIR...semi-understanding how it all works. I personally wouldn’t even think bug. I have used TrackIR for years. And it’s a one button correction.

Anyway I always have a Brisfit career just trying to decide what Squadron. My usual or something new. Hopefully I can let you know in a few. Think your view thing is SOP and not just with WOFF.

#4493574 - 10/19/19 08:15 AM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Okay. I see what your saying. Have not flown as the Observer in...forever.
I thought you meant the view was skewed on switching positions until you recenter (push button) the Track IR.

Unless I am hitting the wrong button (and go to Gunner seat seems simple) I am not going to the observer but some view just at the feet of the pilot apparently and am stuck there at a weird angle as you say. Then I go back to the cockpit and am “stuck” on the forward view. Lemme play with some more buttons...

EDIT: Okay. Hitting about 6 different buttons I am back in the pilots seat with TrackIR working. Thank goodness as I am on patrol. But yea. I would say “bug” as I can’t get to the Observer/gunner position in the Brisfit unless I am screwing up. Any Observer pros want to confirm?

Last edited by DukeIronHand; 10/19/19 08:27 AM.
#4493587 - 10/19/19 11:52 AM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Yeah it seems some of the gunner views are currently messed with and without trackir. The rear facing position of F.E.2b is fine but the forward facing position is zeroed so that you looking starboard from pilot's instrument panel.

What's even more worrying the messed up camera is not following the gun movement at all. It's also drifting around with no input (or trackir), the view seems to be following the movement of instrument pointers (possibly altimeter) rather than the gunner's weapon hahaha.

Last edited by mvp7; 10/19/19 11:53 AM.
#4493591 - 10/19/19 12:05 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Okay thanks. Glad to see it wasn’t just me then.
On the subject of the Fee (I have waaaaay too many favorite planes) I was going to start a Fee career with one in 1916 - an era I never fly - with a bombing Squadron. Tried a “fighting Fee” career once but my wingmates still flew like they were in B-17’s. That was a long while ago though. Let me see when the earliest Fee Squadron in a Fighter role is.

#4493597 - 10/19/19 12:37 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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F.E.2b is one of my top favorites. I have liked it ever since I read a story involving it in the Finnish version of the Commando magazine. Only played it as a fighter in early 1916 so far.

The second WOFF career I ever played (RFC-20) started in a F.E.2b in January 1916 (strictly speaking it started in B.E.2c but that was just for few days in Britain). I really enjoyed flying it as a fighter. The only problem was that it was almost too good!

I would just safely fly under the German two-seaters and the gunner would nail them from below. The only hard part was dodging the Huns when they came down. Dogfights with Eindeckers were a lot more eventful and carefully managing the Gs so that the gunner can shoot is an interesting balancing act.

I wish the AI-controlled Fees would fly using the same tactics as Strutters and Rolands, they would be very interesting opponents.

#4493599 - 10/19/19 12:43 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Not to derail the thread (though I guess the point has been made) is it still the case then when the Fee is in a Squadron flagged as “Fighter” they still fly like a two-seater bomber in combat? Try to stay in a formation, etc?

#4493602 - 10/19/19 01:01 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Yeah, even in Fighter squadrons they use the pure bomber AI.

#4493604 - 10/19/19 01:05 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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The devs need to be made aware of this view glitch. Same thing happened to the bombing views in Strutters and that was fixed. I assume the camera was accidentally nudged when modelling new guns, hence those views were affected. It should be easy to fix for them, but will take time, since there are so many.
As to the Fee’s I remember there is a setting in one of the files that changes their behaviour from bomber to fighter. If I find it I’ll post it.


"Take the cylinder out of my kidneys,
The connecting rod out of my brain, my brain,
From out of my arse take the camshaft,
And assemble the engine again."
#4493605 - 10/19/19 01:08 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Thanks Fullofit.
Was just getting ready to take off on my first “fighter Fee mission” in October 1916. I’ll hold off for now.

#4493610 - 10/19/19 01:24 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Go to Sandbagger’s site and download the flying and fighting instructions on the General mods page. In the Fee document you will find this:

Quote
First off, a word to the wise: ALWAYS fly the Fee in a fighter squadron, NEVER in a bomber squadron. ‘F.E’ officially meant ‘Farman Experimental’ but semi-officially meant ‘Fighter Experimental’. The Fee is MUCH more survivable as a fighter than as a bomber due to the different wingman AIs associated with each role. That said, you might want to do some minor hacking to make the Fee perform in a believable manner as a fighter, as follows:


Find the FE2b_sqd.xdp file in the OBDSoftware\CFSWWI Over Flanders Fields\aircraft\FE2b_Sqd folder. This is SQD without any number on the end. It should be the last FE2b subfolder in \aircraft, after AC1-5 and SQ1-4. In this file,
find the 3rd line from the top (starts with <General Allegience=”0”). Go to the end of this line and you’ll see Category=”tactical_bomber”. Change the “tactical_bomber” to “fighter_bomber”. This will give your AI wingmen a slight semblance of survival instinct, which makes a huge difference in the enjoyment,, frustration index.


Without this change, all AI Fees act like conventional tractor 2-seaters, which means they fly along straight and level; thus they are easy meat. With this change, AI Fees in your squadron ONLY will rely less on a rear defence that isn’t really there, although they will still be quite sluggish so won’t chase down Huns for you. They will, however, respond better to wingman commands in a dogfight and do a better job simulating the ‘Lufbery Circle’ that Fees performed as a matter of course in real life.


Note to self: remember to change this setting.


"Take the cylinder out of my kidneys,
The connecting rod out of my brain, my brain,
From out of my arse take the camshaft,
And assemble the engine again."
#4493611 - 10/19/19 01:28 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Excellent. Another cut & paste for the Library of Knowledge.

#4493615 - 10/19/19 01:46 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Thanks for the reply. This is a great game with a great community. I will send a bug report per the FAQ.


James Overman
#4493616 - 10/19/19 01:57 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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I just checked all the F.E.2b files in PE and they all say "fighter_bomber" now.

OBD apparently changed this, so this mod information is no longer necessary.


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#4493619 - 10/19/19 01:59 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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PR!
Always Johnny-on-the-spot! Thanks.
Looking at Mission Files and have not looked yet. Miss the DOP’s of Bletchley.

#4493622 - 10/19/19 02:22 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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That's odd. I played a QC against four F.E.2b to test this but they still seem to be completely passive like most two seaters. Just level formation flight where the rear facing machine gun has no angle to shoot at the pursuers. Maybe the lack of fixed forward facing machine gun is messing with the AI and defaults it back to two-seater behavior?

Last edited by mvp7; 10/19/19 02:22 PM.
#4493634 - 10/19/19 03:14 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Uh oh. Or there is something else in the mix hardcoded.

#4493636 - 10/19/19 03:21 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Some of those views do seem broken, will look at and hopefully fixed views will be in the next patch.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4493642 - 10/19/19 03:58 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Originally Posted by DukeIronHand
Uh oh. Or there is something else in the mix hardcoded.


Just checked a few and they all have same category of fighter_bomber. Seems to be hardcoded.

#4493645 - 10/19/19 04:11 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Ouch.
And thanks Pol...speaking of Johnny-on-the-spot err OBD.

#4493647 - 10/19/19 04:23 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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FE2B, since it does not have fixed gun, is recognised by cfs3 engine as a bomber. I have asked for correction, but to no avail :-(.

#4493651 - 10/19/19 04:42 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Makes sense in the computer world. 2d should be good then.
And probably could add a “invisible no ammo gun” to the 2b to trick the .exe

#4493653 - 10/19/19 04:51 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Originally Posted by DukeIronHand
Makes sense in the computer world. 2d should be good then.
And probably could add a “invisible no ammo gun” to the 2b to trick the .exe

That is what I (and not only I) have recommended to Pol but without success :-(. Probably due to low interest from flying community?

#4493656 - 10/19/19 05:50 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Oh I think there is plenty of interest in a viable Fee for player pilots. And for the simulation in general. What Alb pilot here doesn’t start drooling when he comes across a flight of Fees. Easy meat! Real easy. Too easy. I once whacked a flight of 4 (or was it 5?) single handed as they plodded along. A feel good moment but a good simulation? Or perhaps I am just seeing things through my eyes? smile

Regardless of that to me, the non-programmer, it sounds incredibly simple. Just a (probably) single line of code somewhere in the 2b files that make the .exe think “fixed forward firing gun.” No changes to the .mdl file or .xfm needed as the gun is not really there.

Looking at the 2d files and just copy something over. Unless the magic line is in one of the locked OBD only files.

#4493657 - 10/19/19 05:53 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Fake gun sounds like a smart way to trick the AI into flying the Fees more aggressively. Even if they wouldn't manage the G-forces ideally for the gunner it would still be far more effective than the current straight line formation flying where it's almost impossible for the gunner to shoot anything.

It would be great if the AI two-seaters in general were more reactive in their flying. An AI controlled Aviatik C.I is trivially easy to shoot down but in player hands it becomes almost untouchable just by gently banking counterclockwise which gives the rear facing side machine gun clear line of fire against any pursuer.

#4493660 - 10/19/19 06:04 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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And then there is the Roland that thinks it’s the Brisfits brother.
There is a line somewhere, a very fine one, between a bomber acting like a bomber and a bomber acting like a fighter all the time. I guess I’ll say “Be the bomber when you’re a bomber but not the sheep to slaughter.” Good luck with that programming job.
In this specific case though the Fee thinking it’s a B-17 is not working for anyone. At least regular two-seaters have a chance, and a reason to stay in formation, with the rear observers field of fire. The Fee has no chance now. May as well give it one.

EDIT: Is the 2d good? Anyone confirm? I haven’t got back to the sim yet to try my 2d career. Somewhat ironically started after I deleted the 2b fighter career as I forgot, till I was on my first flight, that I didn’t have a gun. Felt kind of naked.

Last edited by DukeIronHand; 10/19/19 06:43 PM.
#4493665 - 10/19/19 06:44 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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Two seater fighter-bombers in general are extremely tough opponents in my experience. It's not because of the forward firing weapon but because they don't allow themselves to be safely approached like other two-seaters do. The only pilot I have lost in combat so far was nailed in the cockpit by Roland's rear gunner (note to self: never again test if rear gunners are working while in campaign mode).

In my current German campaign with 40+ missions flown during winter 1916-1917 I have shot down about twenty Nieuports and couple Cauldrons but not a single Strutter. Strutters aren't even that common in the Verdun region but every time they appear, half of the Jasta is written-off.

During the campaign I have been forced to land three times: First time my Eindecker was completely outmaneuvered by a Strutter in dogfight and I had to crash bleeding in French territory; The second time my pilot started bleeding after getting hit by a Strutters rear gunner; Third time I almost lost the pilot against a Strutter despite some highly effective tactics (if I do say so myself):

After a typically hazardous dogfight with a Strutter (that was attacking my home field) it decided to head back home. I followed it doing multiple climbing strafing attacks and hammerhead turns to make the gunner's work as hard as possible. A bit before the no-mans-land the Strutter feigned loss of control and continued towards the French side just couple dozen meters from the ground. This prevented me from doing a safe approach, I took some hits and I lost engine power right on top of the border. If my engine had kept going for a second longer or if there hadn't been a convenient gap in the trees lining the River that was between the French and German side, I would have lost the pilot. The Strutter had received several dozen hits and was smoking a bit but flying fine and that's the closest I or any of the AI pilots have come to shooting down a Strutter.

It really makes a massive difference whether the two-seaters are maneuvering or just passively flying straight and level.

#4493676 - 10/19/19 07:29 PM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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It does but formation keeping by two seaters for self defense was not an unknown concept even in WW1 - certainly by 1917/18. It was recognized clearly that it was better to stay together then do the “fighter break formation and maneuver” thing. But yes. Staying in formation doesn’t necessarily always mean flying absolutely straight and level but there is a limit to how “real and human” you can make the AI. And I don’t think turning all AI bombers into fighters is the way to go either. That would really be phony and break the game. Some things we may just have to suck up. But the 2b needs help.

#4493709 - 10/20/19 12:55 AM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Polovski]  
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Thanks,. I gotta say it again great game and fantastic community with responsive developers. Worth every penny.


James Overman
#4493735 - 10/20/19 10:31 AM Re: Rear Gunner View Bug? [Re: Lucky Shot]  
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They were used as scouts, some crews even called them "Fighting Experimentals" instead of "Farman Experimentals". They should definitely be more aggressive than they are, that is depending on their mission profile and payload. Aviatiks should be a bit keener too imo.


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"The best techniques are passed on by the survivors." - Gaiden Shinji
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