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#4493024 - 10/15/19 04:13 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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NASA in its current state has very little to do with actual space exploration.


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#4493042 - 10/15/19 05:54 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
NASA in its current state has very little to do with actual space exploration.

Not to defend NASA, but their unmanned stuff generally does that, and I think has been doing it pretty well. The Mars rovers, asteroid visits, etc.


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#4493336 - 10/17/19 06:50 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Turn the insanity up to eleven!

NASA will award Boeing a cost-plus contract for up to 10 SLS rockets

Quote
The news release does not mention costs—NASA and Boeing have never been transparent about costs, but certainly production and operations cost for a single SLS launch will be well north of $1 billion. It also does not mention the mechanism of the contract.


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#4493349 - 10/17/19 08:38 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I'm not surprised by this at all. I'm sure someone in Congress is getting lubed by some Boeing exec.


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#4493361 - 10/17/19 09:50 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
I'm not surprised by this at all. I'm sure someone in Congress is getting lubed by some Boeing exec.


If not lubed directly there is one Senator in particular who is determined that the jobs this keeps in his state will remain there, otherwise he might lose the votes those jobs represent.

See comments from above article:

Quote
Gyrotica wrote:
So, uh. What's their communication plan if/when BFR (IE SpaceX Starship/SuperHeavy) overtakes SLS?

Wickwick replied:
Shelby (Senator, Alabama where SLS is built) and Boeing don't care. This contract will be completed regardless of the politics of it or Boeing will sue the hell out of the US government. This is an insurance policy against the political winds changing in the future in exactly such an event.

Edit: This contract also needs to work its way through now, before SuperHeavy ever flies. Because the instant that's the case, NASA can't sole-source this contract. And no matter how you try to rig the evaluation process, Boeing wouldn't win a contested award.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4495260 - 10/30/19 07:28 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Orion capsule has no room for Moon rocks

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Good enough for government work! It appears that the Orion capsule that NASA and Lockheed Martin have been building since 2004 — for a total cost of a mere $18 billion — with the express purpose of sending American astronauts on missions to the Moon and beyond, has been designed without any capability for bringing lunar samples back to Earth.



jawdrop


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4495262 - 10/30/19 07:38 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Communication between government and private industry is fricking worse than communication in a very bad marriage.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4496535 - 11/08/19 05:43 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Even as cynical as I am about SLS and Orion I never would have imagined the cost was going to be this high....

The White House puts a price on the SLS rocket—and it’s a lot
Quote
Congress has mandated that NASA use the more costly SLS booster to launch the ambitious Europa Clipper mission to Jupiter in the early 2020s, while the White House prefers the agency to fly on a much-less-expensive commercial rocket. In a section discussing the Clipper mission, Vought's letter includes a cost estimate to build and fly a single SLS rocket in a given year—more than $2 billion—which NASA has not previously specified.



But wait! There's more!!

NASA does not deny the “over $2 billion” cost of a single SLS launch
Quote
What the White House cost estimate did not include, however, was development costs. Since 2011, Congress has appropriated approximately $2 billion per year for the "development" of the SLS rocket (this does not include hundreds of millions of dollars spent annually on ground systems "development" for the rocket at Kennedy Space Center). If these costs are amortized over 10 launches of the SLS vehicle during the 2020, the per-flight cost would be approximately $4 billion per flight.

Moreover, this is just for the SLS rocket's core stage, side-mounted boosters, and a basic upper stage. Developing and adding the Exploration Upper Stage will add hundreds of millions of more dollars. Then there is the cost of the Orion spacecraft, which NASA recently valued at approximately $750 million for the first six missions.

Adding all of this up, the true cost of a Space Launch System mission with Orion on top in the 2020s, including the rocket's development but excluding ground systems and Orion development costs, appears to be in the ballpark of $5 billion per flight. Let's hope the astronauts are served more than just pretzels after takeoff.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4496616 - 11/09/19 12:45 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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As much as I'm in favor of the James Webb telescope, this is insanity.

#4506091 - 02/04/20 11:16 AM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The Mars Decision by Robert Zubrin

A fairly long article but worth the read, an excerpt:

Quote
Expressed in constant 2018 dollars, NASA’s total funding during the period from 1959 (the agency’s first full year) through 1978 was $335 billion. The agency’s total funding during the period from 1999 through 2018, again expressed in constant 2018 dollars, was $387 billion — an increase of 16 percent.

Now contrast what the agency accomplished during each period. In its first two decades, NASA not only did the Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Skylab, Ranger, Mariner, Surveyor, Lunar Orbiter, Viking, Pioneer, and Voyager missions, it developed virtually all the technologies that have enabled space missions then and ever since, including hydrogen/oxygen rocket engines, multi-stage heavy-lift launch vehicles, space life-support systems, spacesuits, lunar rovers, radioisotope generators, space nuclear reactors, deep space navigation and communication technology, space-rendezvous technology, soft landing systems, reentry systems, and most systems that would be used for the space shuttle, and also built the Deep Space Network, the Cape Canaveral launch complex, and most of its centers and testing facilities.

Over the past two decades, however, NASA’s accomplishments — with the notable exception of its superb robotic missions of planetary exploration and space astronomy — are not remotely comparable to those of its first two decades. Far from going beyond the Moon, NASA’s astronauts have barely flown 0.1 percent of the distance to the Moon. The rate of development of new flight technologies has been near zero. In fact, it has arguably been less than zero in some areas, as exemplified by the failure of NASA’s Space Launch System (SLS) program to be able to redevelop the J-2 engine that powered the upper stages of the old Saturn V from the Apollo days, leaving SLS, which has about the same takeoff thrust as the Saturn V, with only about half the ability of the Saturn V to throw payloads to the Moon.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4506100 - 02/04/20 11:59 AM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The Cold War ending and thus no more USSR to compete against in the space race really took out most of the wind out of NASA's sails. The political will to spend the money and to push NASA to do new things disappeared.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 02/04/20 12:00 PM.

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#4506101 - 02/04/20 12:34 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
The Cold War ending and thus no more USSR to compete against in the space race really took out most of the wind out of NASA's sails. The political will to spend the money and to push NASA to do new things disappeared.



Zubrin addresses that assumption, read the article wink


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4506141 - 02/04/20 05:30 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Zubrin has been pushing the Mars Direct thing for a long time, and while I think he makes some good points, I also think he is a bit blinded by what he wants to do.

I think going back to the Moon makes a lot of sense, because we could, in theory, go back with a lot more technology and accomplish a lot more than the first visits, which really were more publicity stunts than science. The missions were designed to get there as quickly as possible (development time, not travel time), so things were cut to the bone as far as what the craft could do (separate lander and ascent modules, for example). Getting there was the important thing, doing stuff there was secondary.

Going to Mars is a lot more involved than going to the Moon, and without building up some kind of capability, and testing it out before we go, we're open for a lot of potential issues. Going to the Moon and spending time there seems like the best way to work out a lot of those details. Two manned missions went to the moon before actually landing to test things out, but we wouldn't have that opportunity with Mars, so doing as much as possible with the Moon seems like our best bet for practice. Apollo 17's mission lasted 12 days, with three of those days being on the Moon. Just getting to Mars would take months, then of course the travel time back, and then however long someone would need to stay there. That's a lot more travel time, a lot more exposure to the hostile environment of space, a lot longer time in microgravity, and just a lot more time for something to go wrong (imagine an Apollo 13-like issue on the way to Mars).

Again, given all that, I think going to the Moon and spending time there seems like good practice for a longer mission to Mars, and has it's own benefits as well.


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#4506147 - 02/04/20 07:09 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I don't see how it's any surprise that something being designed to TAKE PEOPLE TO MARS and back ends up being one of the most expensive things ever...

#4506148 - 02/04/20 07:11 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I believe there is already a long list of volunteers for whenever the first manned expedition to Mars is done by SpaceX.


I'm not nearly that brave!


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#4506149 - 02/04/20 07:19 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
I believe there is already a long list of volunteers for whenever the first manned expedition to Mars is done by SpaceX.


I'm not nearly that brave!

My guess is that most of those volunteers, when the time actually comes to make a commitment, won't be that brave either smile.


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#4506150 - 02/04/20 07:48 PM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: Zamzow]  
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Originally Posted by Zamzow
I don't see how it's any surprise that something being designed to TAKE PEOPLE TO MARS and back ends up being one of the most expensive things ever...


Well there is expensive, more expensive, too expensive, extravagantly expensive and then you start getting into SLS territory.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4506185 - 02/05/20 01:07 AM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Zamzow
I don't see how it's any surprise that something being designed to TAKE PEOPLE TO MARS and back ends up being one of the most expensive things ever...


Well there is expensive, more expensive, too expensive, extravagantly expensive and then you start getting into SLS territory.


Try 60+ billion for a few hundred miles of "high speed" rail - when the ISS cost 100 billion. (49 year lifetime California resident here so I think I can talk that smack...).

SLS not looking so bad now is it?

#4506188 - 02/05/20 01:12 AM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
NASA in its current state has very little to do with actual space exploration.


Name one unmanned mission in the past 40 years that would have made more sense manned...

During those 40 years we've learned a lot more about space than the Apollo missions taught us - even from the ground...

#4506195 - 02/05/20 02:09 AM Re: NASA'S Boondoggle [Re: Zamzow]  
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Originally Posted by Zamzow
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Zamzow
I don't see how it's any surprise that something being designed to TAKE PEOPLE TO MARS and back ends up being one of the most expensive things ever...


Well there is expensive, more expensive, too expensive, extravagantly expensive and then you start getting into SLS territory.


Try 60+ billion for a few hundred miles of "high speed" rail - when the ISS cost 100 billion. (49 year lifetime California resident here so I think I can talk that smack...).

SLS not looking so bad now is it?



Whataboutism doesn't make SLS any better. But if it did what California does matters not to me, NASA does.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
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