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#4491692 - 10/06/19 01:44 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Hi Chaps,

Thanks for taking up the cause with your usual vigor! I can report back some positive results with the suggestions that AnKor and Adger gave. Primarily, dropping the nVidia settings back to their defaults (no modifications to CFS3.exe in the Control Panel) has had some positive results. I also dropped back the Scenery Detail to 4 along with Effects and Clouds. Oddly enough, I upped TrackIR back to its default settings: Speed is at 0.8 and Smooth is at 20. This is reducing a lot of the hanging I would get when looking around quickly in the cockpit view. I'm still getting some bogged down fps when things get hectic, but I flew a scramble mission last night (the Spitfire is DELIGHTFUL!) and we had a good run through on some Heinkel's and fought out it with a gaggle of 109's and it remained smooth. A few fps hits here and there but on a mid-range system like mine, I can't complain.

I do wonder if it's not a preload issue as well - and I will second what everyone else said, knocking effects back to 1 makes no visible difference on my end - still looks almost the same.

Still, I'm excited for the next installment - especially that performance improvement feature!

WOTR is a lovely sim - super super immersive. I'll keep checking back for additional things to try out. I refuse to give up on this one! Thanks again chaps! Already flying better!

#4491693 - 10/06/19 01:47 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Here's a clip from what was actually reported:

Originally Posted by CaptSopwith
The FPS then hits single digits or locks up for a second or two.


Plenty of people call that a stutter.

You call it whatever you want - unlike you, I have no problem with you expressing your opinions. You seem to have problem with others having an opinion that doesn't agree with yours. I'm not trying to stop you saying whatever you want - so why don't you stop attacking me just because I don't agree with you?

#4491695 - 10/06/19 01:51 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Originally Posted by CaptSopwith
This is reducing a lot of the hanging I would get when looking around quickly in the cockpit view. I'm still getting some bogged down fps when things get hectic...

I do wonder if it's not a preload issue as well - and I will second what everyone else said, knocking effects back to 1 makes no visible difference on my end - still looks almost the same.


Great to hear it might be improved...but, just to be clear: Are you saying it never gets down into single digits or locks up for a second or two, like it was originally? That's a huge difference.

#4491702 - 10/06/19 02:18 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Originally Posted by CaptSopwith
Hi Chaps,

Thanks for taking up the cause with your usual vigor! I can report back some positive results with the suggestions that AnKor and Adger gave. Primarily, dropping the nVidia settings back to their defaults (no modifications to CFS3.exe in the Control Panel) has had some positive results. I also dropped back the Scenery Detail to 4 along with Effects and Clouds. Oddly enough, I upped TrackIR back to its default settings: Speed is at 0.8 and Smooth is at 20. This is reducing a lot of the hanging I would get when looking around quickly in the cockpit view. I'm still getting some bogged down fps when things get hectic, but I flew a scramble mission last night (the Spitfire is DELIGHTFUL!) and we had a good run through on some Heinkel's and fought out it with a gaggle of 109's and it remained smooth. A few fps hits here and there but on a mid-range system like mine, I can't complain.

I do wonder if it's not a preload issue as well - and I will second what everyone else said, knocking effects back to 1 makes no visible difference on my end - still looks almost the same.

Still, I'm excited for the next installment - especially that performance improvement feature!

WOTR is a lovely sim - super super immersive. I'll keep checking back for additional things to try out. I refuse to give up on this one! Thanks again chaps! Already flying better!


Brilliant Captain,yep hopefully more performance improvements will come the Spit is beautiful but I have a certain love for the 109,s and the sounds and particularly the 109 skins done by Robert are exceptional. Have fun mate..all the best


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4491703 - 10/06/19 02:21 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
Originally Posted by CaptSopwith
This is reducing a lot of the hanging I would get when looking around quickly in the cockpit view. I'm still getting some bogged down fps when things get hectic...

I do wonder if it's not a preload issue as well - and I will second what everyone else said, knocking effects back to 1 makes no visible difference on my end - still looks almost the same.


Great to hear it might be improved...but, just to be clear: Are you saying it never gets down into single digits or locks up for a second or two, like it was originally? That's a huge difference.


Just to be clear - the frame rate no longer hangs. The issue in WOTR was not a stutter - as in a stutter step frame rate where the screen moves in a jerking fashion for a few seconds at a time. This was a full on lock up - FPS would tank (the fps counter would say 5-8 fps but the game was essentially frozen). If things get particularly busy the fps will still drop but they aren't hanging and I'm not seeing a stutter step in what's rendering on the screen.

I'm fine with games taking a hit when things get busy - I'm not running a super rig. My PS4 will struggle playing Gran Turismo Sport if things get busy enough. My goal was to get the lock up issue to resolve and so far, so good.

I recently got into the BAT mod for IL-2 1946 - which is fantastic. Flew a Tiffy mission the other night and encountered a bug - the bomb fuses on our Typhoon's weren't set right and when the formation went in and dropped, the blast radius took out the entirety of A-Flight. Game locked up pretty good with 10 Typhoons blasting themselves out of the sky! rofl

Last bit of input from me: I can now say, conclusively, that WOFF and WOTR both play best with the nVidia settings left alone. For whatever reason, my system has always defaulted to some level of vsync on both WOFF and WOTR when left alone, and that seems to play best in terms of smoothness of gameplay. I seem to remember saying this earlier in the year... oh how quickly I forget. Memo to Self....

#4491705 - 10/06/19 02:31 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Replacing shellcasing.dds with the mush smaller stock (?) CFS3 version made no difference.

Renaming the texture file made no difference (except that the spent cases looked like black bricks.

Back to the WotR shellcasing.dds, didn't see any sign of disk activity light flashing during the problem (consistent with shellcasing.dds being preloaded anyway)

Strange, that reducing texture quality in Workshop doesn't seem to make a visible/much difference (tho not enough experience on my side to say for sure).

I have some settings for CFS3.exe applied in Nvidia control panel and will try deleting that profile and relying on WotR Workshop settings.

#4491706 - 10/06/19 02:41 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Great news Capt,yep I can remember the post regarding default Nvidia settings and hopefully your post clears up the difference between a stutter and a FPS drop/lock. We has flyers of said sims can clearly distinguish between the 2.

Yep I also enjoy BAT haven't flown it for a bit and I'm a couple of modules behind..VP,S mod pack is also very good if it's just WW2 action you into. Looking forwards personally to what OBD can do in the future regarding WOTR. Hopefully exciting times ahead.


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4491707 - 10/06/19 02:44 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: 33lima]  
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Originally Posted by 33lima
I have some settings for CFS3.exe applied in Nvidia control panel and will try deleting that profile and relying on WotR Workshop settings.


Yep it's worth a try mate,hopefully like Capt you'll get some favourable results.


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4491729 - 10/06/19 04:41 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Well chaps no joy at all removing the existing Nvidia driver profiles - just as bad (and it is awful for the several seconds it often lasts). Changing effects settings from 1 to 5 and back makes not the slightest difference (and doesn't look any different that I can see, either).

I wonder if loading sounds could be implicated as R/T calls are generally being played (and perhaps displayed - I have text turned off ATM) at the same time this is happening. I recall CloD suffered from stutter when radio calls were played, the only fix that worked for me being to move CloD to the SSD. But WotR is already on the SSD. It might be possible to add all the (many) variants of R/T calls that play at this point to preload.xml - not sure if that's viable, as it includes only texture files at the moment. But as I haven't NOTICED disk activity and am using an SSD, I'm not sure texture loading (or sound file loading, or both) is the problem here. Folks with modern rigs may be able to power through the issue but it's not happening for me. Bit of a killer.

#4491734 - 10/06/19 05:16 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Really sorry to hear of your woes Lima,I was hoping that maybe the settings in Nvidia could help.
Hopefully sooner rather than later we will see more performance improvements for Wotr..Maybe there’s someone else browsing this forum that can offer further advice?


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4491740 - 10/06/19 06:05 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Unfortunate, 33lima, but I'm honestly not surprised.

BTW the sound angle has come up a number of times...while I can't say it's definitely not the problem, I really don't think it is, for a few reasons.

That said, I suppose it is possible that the sim handles sound and/or textures in a way that causes this issue. When I discussed performance with AnKor, I certainly got that impression. What i find discouraging is that he didn't seem to have a lot of confidence that he could make it better.

#4491745 - 10/06/19 07:03 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: 33lima]  
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Originally Posted by 33lima
Well chaps no joy at all removing the existing Nvidia driver profiles - just as bad (and it is awful for the several seconds it often lasts). Changing effects settings from 1 to 5 and back makes not the slightest difference (and doesn't look any different that I can see, either).

I wonder if loading sounds could be implicated as R/T calls are generally being played (and perhaps displayed - I have text turned off ATM) at the same time this is happening. I recall CloD suffered from stutter when radio calls were played, the only fix that worked for me being to move CloD to the SSD. But WotR is already on the SSD. It might be possible to add all the (many) variants of R/T calls that play at this point to preload.xml - not sure if that's viable, as it includes only texture files at the moment. But as I haven't NOTICED disk activity and am using an SSD, I'm not sure texture loading (or sound file loading, or both) is the problem here. Folks with modern rigs may be able to power through the issue but it's not happening for me. Bit of a killer.



I'm sorry to hear that too 33lima. The sim will still do that on my end, but much less often than before. Out of curiosity, what processor do you have? I'm wondering if it's something not playing well with our chipsets as I know the sim throttles a lot through the CPU. When the full stops happen I'm not seeing anything major on the GPU so I'm wondering if it's not getting stuck processing something under the hood. Like you, I can ramp up the settings to all 5's or down to all 1's and turn on and off all of the other options with no change whatsoever. FPS stay pretty much the same regardless. Knocking the nVidia settings back to their defaults - particularly the latency mode (which replaced the pre-rendered frames option) seems to have ironed out a lot of it but still...

Ultimately chaps, we are working with a nearly 20 year old bit of code that was never intended to work the kind of magic it does now. I have games from the year 2002 that don't even start in Windows 10, let alone function.

What OBD needs, ultimately, is a new graphics engine to build this on top of.

I'm sure it's completely pie in the sky - especially since MSFS doesn't really model damage or ballistics - but if somehow Pol and Winder hit the lottery, they can get a license for the new Flight Simulator engine.

I can chip in my $25 in a few weeks when I'm next paid and move UE over to PE. Every little bit...

Last edited by CaptSopwith; 10/06/19 07:05 PM.
#4491746 - 10/06/19 07:10 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Originally Posted by CaptSopwith
Originally Posted by 33lima
Well chaps no joy at all removing the existing Nvidia driver profiles - just as bad (and it is awful for the several seconds it often lasts). Changing effects settings from 1 to 5 and back makes not the slightest difference (and doesn't look any different that I can see, either).

I wonder if loading sounds could be implicated as R/T calls are generally being played (and perhaps displayed - I have text turned off ATM) at the same time this is happening. I recall CloD suffered from stutter when radio calls were played, the only fix that worked for me being to move CloD to the SSD. But WotR is already on the SSD. It might be possible to add all the (many) variants of R/T calls that play at this point to preload.xml - not sure if that's viable, as it includes only texture files at the moment. But as I haven't NOTICED disk activity and am using an SSD, I'm not sure texture loading (or sound file loading, or both) is the problem here. Folks with modern rigs may be able to power through the issue but it's not happening for me. Bit of a killer.



I'm sorry to hear that too 33lima. The sim will still do that on my end, but much less often than before. Out of curiosity, what processor do you have? I'm wondering if it's something not playing well with our chipsets as I know the sim throttles a lot through the CPU. When the full stops happen I'm not seeing anything major on the GPU so I'm wondering if it's not getting stuck processing something under the hood. Like you, I can ramp up the settings to all 5's or down to all 1's and turn on and off all of the other options with no change whatsoever. FPS stay pretty much the same regardless. Knocking the nVidia settings back to their defaults - particularly the latency mode (which replaced the pre-rendered frames option) seems to have ironed out a lot of it but still...

Ultimately chaps, we are working with a nearly 20 year old bit of code that was never intended to work the kind of magic it does now. I have games from the year 2002 that don't even start in Windows 10, let alone function.

What OBD needs, ultimately, is a new graphics engine to build this on top of.

I'm sure it's completely pie in the sky - especially since MSFS doesn't really model damage or ballistics - but if somehow Pol and Winder hit the lottery, they can get a license for the new Flight Simulator engine.

I can chip in my $25 in a few weeks when I'm next paid and move UE over to PE. Every little bit...


How very well stated.

BTW the idea of something getting stuck processing is along the lines of my own understanding of what AnKor has described as the issue with performance: The way it works in CFS3 tries to do a lot of stuff through the CPU (a holdover from the days when GPUs were nowhere near as capable as CPUs), whereas nowadays much more is done through GPUs. Makes sense to me, because GPUs have long since far outpaced CPUs (explains why they're used in mining instead of CPUs). But if the sim isn't able to do it that way, maybe another engine is the only path.

Also, you mention "When the full stops happen"...so, if I'm following, it is still happening to you as well?

FWIW I don't know that there's any rule that says stutter has to be happen more than once at a time to be called stutter. It doesn't have to be a series of pauses. If it only pauses/delays once, it's still a stutter. There is no difference in stutters, and "frame rate drop" when the drop is noticeable (IOW, a noticeable drop in frame rate is a stutter).

Never seen anything anywhere that says it must happen more than once at a time to be called a stutter.

At least, that's my own observation and what I've seen everywhere else - I'd welcome authoritative evidence to the contrary, by all means.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 10/06/19 07:43 PM.
#4491748 - 10/06/19 08:09 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Originally Posted by CaptSopwith
Originally Posted by 33lima
Well chaps no joy at all removing the existing Nvidia driver profiles - just as bad (and it is awful for the several seconds it often lasts). Changing effects settings from 1 to 5 and back makes not the slightest difference (and doesn't look any different that I can see, either).

I wonder if loading sounds could be implicated as R/T calls are generally being played (and perhaps displayed - I have text turned off ATM) at the same time this is happening. I recall CloD suffered from stutter when radio calls were played, the only fix that worked for me being to move CloD to the SSD. But WotR is already on the SSD. It might be possible to add all the (many) variants of R/T calls that play at this point to preload.xml - not sure if that's viable, as it includes only texture files at the moment. But as I haven't NOTICED disk activity and am using an SSD, I'm not sure texture loading (or sound file loading, or both) is the problem here. Folks with modern rigs may be able to power through the issue but it's not happening for me. Bit of a killer.



I'm sorry to hear that too 33lima. The sim will still do that on my end, but much less often than before. Out of curiosity, what processor do you have? I'm wondering if it's something not playing well with our chipsets as I know the sim throttles a lot through the CPU.


I have a 3.4GHz non-O/C i3 4130 dual core. Adger. CloD (for example) is as smooth as silk with near-maxed graphics during action of similar intensity, complete with R/T chatter (much of it silly, admittedly). Newer engine of course.

But the thing is, this is happening when a couple of aircraft get whacked. There's stuff to be rendered, sounds to be played, and outcomes to be calculated. Core functionality for any combat flight sim. And more to the point, CFS3's old engine could do all of this pretty-well fine and dandy seventeen years ago, on very considerably less horsepower. My point being of course that in any situation, when there's only so much room for stuff, something less important needs to get moved out, to make headroom, rather than sacrificing or crippling more important stuff. Like stutter-free (sic) shootdowns. Ditto, big formations (yes I know, my old chestnut, yawn) which are a lot more important to an ETO-based CFS than big dense swathes of housing, detailed fences, livestock, flights the player will or should never see, or whatever it is that's taking up CPU cycles that should be taken up by the essentials rather than the desirables.

Here endeth the sermon smile

#4491749 - 10/06/19 08:24 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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I don't disagree with your points Lima there very well put mate. And I would also certainly have less housing,livestock fences etc,if it meant greater Fps gains.(If it's things like these that cause any drops). Decent size formations I agree are a big yes in Phase 1 of WOTR,and at seems apparent that there's "Something" that's eating into the CPU.
What I will say is this..POL and Winding Man know this code like the back of their hands,if Anyone can squeeze extra juice out of it it's them pair..And hopefully their both working on performance improvements,fingers crossed guys.


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4491785 - 10/07/19 01:04 AM Re: Performance Problem [Re: Adger]  
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Originally Posted by Adger
I don't disagree with your points Lima there very well put mate. And I would also certainly have less housing,livestock fences etc,if it meant greater Fps gains.(If it's things like these that cause any drops). Decent size formations I agree are a big yes in Phase 1 of WOTR,and at seems apparent that there's "Something" that's eating into the CPU.
What I will say is this..POL and Winding Man know this code like the back of their hands,if Anyone can squeeze extra juice out of it it's them pair..And hopefully their both working on performance improvements,fingers crossed guys.


I'll also chime in with Adger and I agree with your thoughts 33lima. I've been playing OFF now since 2005ish (gads even my memory of when I started is getting hazy... might have been 2006). Phase 1 of OFF was also pretty rough around the edges - cockpits looked blocky, shed loads of aircraft were missing, the sims had an awkward blend of CFS3 and WWI (I don't think there was much of a shell to speak of) and over time it just kept getting better. It's been nearly 15 years now and while I certainly still have moments of frustration (as I do with any game: I own an NES, an Xbox 360, a PS1, PS2, and PS4 and I play everything from super obscure to Triple-A games), I trust these guys to make it work. I still have every confidence that they will.

In the meantime, I'm also crossing my fingers and looking forward to what drops next.

Two weeks? Right chaps? twoweeks

#4491948 - 10/07/19 08:49 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Just out of how many aircraft are in the air in CLOD at any time (not spawning near you) but flying their own missions with full AI ?


Regards,

Polovski,
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#4492226 - 10/09/19 10:17 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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Still getting this 'shootdown slowdown' with Beta 1.19 so tried something else, which seems to have eliminated the playing of sound files from being implicated.

Specifically, I moved all the many 'I'm hitting him' radio calls which played at the time into a new subfolder, so they don't play any more. Which they now don't, and which I will keep that way, as I don't think even an excited pilot would take a hand off stick or throttle during a firing pass to key his oxygen mask mounted pressel/PTT switch merely to announce he was hitting something. But it makes no difference slowdown-wise, and I doubt trying and failing to find the moved file would cause exactly the same serious slowdown.

Next I will try replacing (with similar CFS3 or CFS3 ETO effects/fxtexture .dds files) some of the texture effects files that may be in use during shootdowns - for example when a Heinkel is hit, there forms a very long trail of little sort of smoke bubbles. So even if the .dds files are the same size or maybe only a bit bigger in WotR, there may be more of them used, for a better look, or the different game engine may handle them in a different way. I will start by deleting some of these files altogether, and via a bit of trial and error, see if any of them affect the issue. If they don't, then either I'm barking up the wrong tree and unlikely to locate the right one, or MajorMagee may be right in suggesting it's some sort of damage calculation that's the cause. Which seems unlikely as OBD support suspects my somewhat sub-spec GTX580 is implicated (though it breezes through all else in WotR at medium to high settings) and my 3.4 GHz GPU, liable to be the bottleneck in such calcs, is much closer to recommended than minimum spec. Will report back if I come up with anything.

Last edited by 33lima; 10/09/19 10:43 PM.
#4492334 - 10/10/19 05:20 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: CaptSopwith]  
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If it's damage calcs then that's CPU. Maybe the CPU is overheating and throttling.
I don't see any slowdown here mines an I7 6700k at 4.5 Ghz..


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4492385 - 10/10/19 11:34 PM Re: Performance Problem [Re: Polovski]  
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Originally Posted by Polovski
If it's damage calcs then that's CPU. Maybe the CPU is overheating and throttling.
I don't see any slowdown here mines an I7 6700k at 4.5 Ghz..


That might be the issue, Pol. In terms of CPU pace, I'm pretty well behind you at 3.6 Ghz, which might explain the slow down when it's running calculations on the damage model.

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