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#4491211 - 10/03/19 12:28 AM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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I believe the fatalities are up to 7 now frown


Ken Cartwright

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#4491212 - 10/03/19 12:33 AM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Docjonel Offline
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I've been on her multiple times and flown on her twice.
Can't imagine how awful that must have been for all onboard.

This local news story has the ATC radio transmissions:
https://fox61.com/2019/10/02/7-dead-several-injured-in-b-17-crash-at-bradley-airport/

RIP to those who lost their lives.
Also an irreplaceable piece of history lost. Someone on Reddit who claims to have inside information was claiming that the plane was fueled with the wrong fuel prior to the flight.
No way to assess the veracity of what is only a rumor at this point, but that explanation would make more sense than a single engine failure downing a four engine bomber.

Some photos taken onboard during my flight in 2006:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36
#4491221 - 10/03/19 03:10 AM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Wow Doc, it's great, and yet a bit eerie, to see those photos. And I agree, even though it's rumor, the fuel scenario does sound logical.


Ken Cartwright

No single drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood.

http://www.techflyer.net

#4491243 - 10/03/19 10:44 AM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted by Arthonon
I believe the fatalities are up to 7 now frown



Wow, so we went from an initial report of no fatalities to now 7. frown


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4491249 - 10/03/19 11:33 AM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Initial reports are almost always bad.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4491268 - 10/03/19 01:10 PM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Most commercial aircraft get retired after 25 to 30 years. Now lets throw in an extra 20 years because its more durable since is was built for military use so we're up to 50 years of lifespan (just for this discussion as there's no rule like that). However for the B-17 we have to go back to at least when the last version was built ..... 75 years ago. Should a plane built at least 75 years ago (or more) still be used to fly at all ?


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4491271 - 10/03/19 01:31 PM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted by Haggart
Most commercial aircraft get retired after 25 to 30 years. Now lets throw in an extra 20 years because its more durable since is was built for military use so we're up to 50 years of lifespan (just for this discussion as there's no rule like that). However for the B-17 we have to go back to at least when the last version was built ..... 75 years ago. Should a plane built at least 75 years ago (or more) still be used to fly at all ?


That would depend on what maintenance / inspections are done upon it over the years. It's probably fair to say that warbirds like this that are preserved / resurrected get fairly comprehensive attention to all of the systems, and airframe. The trickiest part, I suspect, is assessing the fatigue upon load bearing parts. Non-Destructive Evaluation of metal parts can get pretty pricey, and I imagine at least some of it would involve some fairly extensive disassembly of the plane.

#4491272 - 10/03/19 01:33 PM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Machines that are well kept up with proper maintenance, inspection, replacement parts, and so on can run like new as long as it is operated within the tolerances.
I am sure the engines have been rebuilt and parts replaced and structurally I am sure the plane was inspected after and before each flight.
Age has nothing to do with it for machines...it's all in the maintenance and operator.

#4491280 - 10/03/19 03:09 PM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted by Haggart
Most commercial aircraft get retired after 25 to 30 years. Now lets throw in an extra 20 years because its more durable since is was built for military use so we're up to 50 years of lifespan (just for this discussion as there's no rule like that). However for the B-17 we have to go back to at least when the last version was built ..... 75 years ago. Should a plane built at least 75 years ago (or more) still be used to fly at all ?


The "wrong fuel" thing is just hearsay at this point, but if that's true, then age of the aircraft doesn't matter one bit. I can go get in the newest Cessna out on the flight line and things are going to go terribly wrong if it's got the wrong fuel in it (and I don't catch it in pre-flight).


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#4491287 - 10/03/19 04:02 PM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Commercial aircraft fly a lot more hours in their service life than an old warbird touring the country does in 50+ years.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4491299 - 10/03/19 04:51 PM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted by Haggart
Most commercial aircraft get retired after 25 to 30 years. Now lets throw in an extra 20 years because its more durable since is was built for military use so we're up to 50 years of lifespan (just for this discussion as there's no rule like that). However for the B-17 we have to go back to at least when the last version was built ..... 75 years ago. Should a plane built at least 75 years ago (or more) still be used to fly at all ?



Do you realize how many “old” airplanes are still flying with safety records as good as just from the factory aircraft. Aircraft going through an Annual Inspection are required to be as airworthy as the day they left the factory. In many cases they are better now than then. That is the case with mine. My Cessna 177 is 50 years old.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4491325 - 10/03/19 07:46 PM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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I also think of aircraft like B-52s and C-130s. They're still serving strong since the late 50s I believe. I get bothered when I see Youtube comments saying a plane this old shouldn't be flying and so on and so forth. From my limited understanding that is not how it works. As other's mentioned, these warbirds have large percentages of new and rebuilt parts, new avionics and maintenance as good as any you'll find and they have to follow the same regulations and standards everyone else does I assume.

Our local, historically celebrated warbird the "Tico Bell", a C-47 that flies out of the Valiant Air Command in Titusville, FL at airshows all over the country recently has been involved with the relief efforts for Hurricane Dorian. A D-Day and Berlin Airlift veteran has taken multiple flights now back and forth to the Bahamas to provide aide materials doing what she was built to do.


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#4491378 - 10/04/19 03:54 AM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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I just ran across a video I forgot I had taken. This was October 28, 2018. "Nine O Nine" overflew my house while I was out in the yard and I captured a short video on my phone. Flying past my flag is particularly poignant.




https://youtu.be/GtP-aOtOFgk


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4491383 - 10/04/19 05:20 AM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Wow, great catch F4U.
That sound is unforgettable.

A few more photos of Nine-O-Nine before she fades forever from our boards:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Taken through a chain link fence in Groton:
[Linked Image]


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36
#4491442 - 10/04/19 04:39 PM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Some of my family rode in that exact B-17 a couple years ago. My grandfather was a B-17 captain in WW2 so it was both an aviation and a "family" thing...

Somewhere I have video of them during that flight, trying to find it...

#4491444 - 10/04/19 04:56 PM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4491517 - 10/05/19 04:06 AM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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The B-17 that crashed was also involved in another crash in 1987 and repaired. "The aircraft suffered severe damage in August 1987: While performing at an air show in western Pennsylvania that year, Nine-O-Nine was caught by a severe crosswind after landing. "Despite the efforts of her crew, she rolled off the end of the runway, crashed through a chain link fence, sheared off a power pole and roared down a 100-foot ravine to a thundering stop," the foundation said. The bomber suffered severe damage, though no fatalities. The aircraft was repaired and featured in airshows."


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4491644 - 10/06/19 05:28 AM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted by Haggart
The B-17 that crashed was also involved in another crash in 1987 and repaired. "The aircraft suffered severe damage in August 1987: While performing at an air show in western Pennsylvania that year, Nine-O-Nine was caught by a severe crosswind after landing. "Despite the efforts of her crew, she rolled off the end of the runway, crashed through a chain link fence, sheared off a power pole and roared down a 100-foot ravine to a thundering stop," the foundation said. The bomber suffered severe damage, though no fatalities. The aircraft was repaired and featured in airshows."


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I could die on it tomorrow.

#4491689 - 10/06/19 01:32 PM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted by Haggart
The B-17 that crashed was also involved in another crash in 1987 and repaired. "The aircraft suffered severe damage in August 1987: While performing at an air show in western Pennsylvania that year, Nine-O-Nine was caught by a severe crosswind after landing. "Despite the efforts of her crew, she rolled off the end of the runway, crashed through a chain link fence, sheared off a power pole and roared down a 100-foot ravine to a thundering stop," the foundation said. The bomber suffered severe damage, though no fatalities. The aircraft was repaired and featured in airshows."


The aircraft is disassembled as far as it can be and inspected. Structurally it has to be 100% sound, every spar, bulkhead, stringer, and longeron is inspected. Every rivet, every screw, every wire, every hose and cable, and every clamp has to be as new for it to pass its airworthiness inspection. On an aircraft like this you’re probably looking at a good 4-5000 man-hours for the repairs and inspection.

When I worked at the FBO at Portland (ME) Int’l Jetport our a/c maintenance shop did an airworthiness inspection on a Grumman Goose, which is a twin-engine amphibian of similar vintage as the B17. That thing spent months in various stages of disassembly before being put back together and going on a check flight.


Phil

“The biggest problem people have is they don’t think they’re supposed to have problems.” - Hayes Barnard
#4492126 - 10/09/19 05:19 AM Re: B-17 crashes [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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NTSB vid of the crash site, no audio.
Tragedy for all the lives lost, and pity nothing much is left of Nine-O-Nine.



Slug


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