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#4457897 - 01/19/19 02:38 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Step 2 would be to build roads all over Mars, shopping centers and concrete on which to park those cars and dump all our wastes and plastic into any existing water well we find


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#4457899 - 01/19/19 03:04 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted by Haggart
Step 2 would be to build roads all over Mars, shopping centers and concrete on which to park those cars and dump all our wastes and plastic into any existing water well we find


Hell, yeah, sounds like a solid plan to me.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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#4457930 - 01/19/19 01:35 PM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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The self hate some feel for their own species is astonishing to me.


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#4458320 - 01/23/19 12:23 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Isn't Space X currently working on making and testing a ship that can send people to Mars?


I'd say it's more logical to let them do it than to pin your hopes on an inefficient bureaucracy to do it.



This is real, not photoshop etc:

https://www.space.com/42979-spacex-starship-test-vehicle-photo.html


An interesting Popular Mechanics interview with Elon Musk about the redesign of the Starship:
Elon Musk: Why I'm Building the Starship out of Stainless Steel

Friggin' brilliant!

#4458337 - 01/23/19 02:13 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: CyBerkut]  
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Originally Posted by CyBerkut
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Isn't Space X currently working on making and testing a ship that can send people to Mars?


I'd say it's more logical to let them do it than to pin your hopes on an inefficient bureaucracy to do it.



This is real, not photoshop etc:

https://www.space.com/42979-spacex-starship-test-vehicle-photo.html


An interesting Popular Mechanics interview with Elon Musk about the redesign of the Starship:
Elon Musk: Why I'm Building the Starship out of Stainless Steel

Friggin' brilliant!



Yep. Totally non intuitive but I would never bet against him.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4458339 - 01/23/19 02:28 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Dart]  
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Originally Posted by Dart
Once we look at the water, we should do what somehow is unthinkable - introduce life.

If there is a lot of liquid water, we have several forms of life that can live in it.

And if we can ever come up with a way to either emulate a magnetic shield or find some way to kick start the planet's own weak one, step one to terraforming is done.



+ 1,000,000,000!

We ought to be sending spores, seeds, algae, fungi, whatever, and seeing if any of it will take. Then there's a shot at getting an ecosystem going. Give it a billion years (even on it's own) and you might have a self sustaining habitat (you could hunt for food...)

If we're still kicking a billion years from now on Earth we'll be needing it......

#4458344 - 01/23/19 04:28 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Can we not look at impacting comets on Mars too? Instant injection of water and all sorts of goodies.


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#4458357 - 01/23/19 10:07 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Mad Max]  
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Originally Posted by Mad Max
Can we not look at impacting comets on Mars too? Instant injection of water and all sorts of goodies.


Ayup. The Red Mars trilogy included that as part of the terraforming process, utilizing robotic spacecraft, IIRC.

#4488862 - 09/09/19 02:10 PM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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#4488866 - 09/09/19 03:00 PM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Silica aerogel is amazing stuff...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sw1tNeJ0Rw


But despite how cool it'd be to terraform Mars and give it an atmosphere, the planet lacks a stable, coherent magnetosphere to preserve and protect any atmosphere from stellar radiation and blow-off. This is a interesting proposition, but I fear that most any of us living on Mars long-term will be confined to those domes we often hear and read about in science fiction. We could pour a ridiculous sum of money into carbonizing the atmosphere from outside sources such a surface bombardment, etc., but long-term whatever we put there won't stick around. That said, I think Mars is a critically important stepping stone to mankind colonizing interstellar space. The technology and methodologies we learn by going there may serve us well for generations to come.

[edit: moderators, youtube imbedding is broken now on SimHQ]

Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 09/09/19 03:00 PM.
#4488867 - 09/09/19 03:01 PM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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From the article:

Quote
“The main risk is associated with planetary protection,” Wordsworth continued. “We haven’t yet found any life on Mars, but it could still be conceivably hidden in some subsurface niches. When we build habitats on Mars, we need to be careful not to interfere with this life in any way if it does exist.”


That is some straight up bovine excrement.

One can't say "terraform," meaning to make it Earth-like, and also say we shouldn't alter or change any indigenous life. They're incompatible goals.


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#4488870 - 09/09/19 03:10 PM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Dart]  
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Originally Posted by Dart

One can't say "terraform," meaning to make it Earth-like, and also say we shouldn't alter or change any indigenous life. They're incompatible goals.



Bingo. That struck me as well when I read the article.

Illogical and contradictory statements seem to be par for the course though with these types of speculative articles concerning either human space exploration or alien life.


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#4488899 - 09/09/19 07:32 PM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Dart]  
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Originally Posted by Dart
From the article:

Quote
“The main risk is associated with planetary protection,” Wordsworth continued. “We haven’t yet found any life on Mars, but it could still be conceivably hidden in some subsurface niches. When we build habitats on Mars, we need to be careful not to interfere with this life in any way if it does exist.”


That is some straight up bovine excrement.

One can't say "terraform," meaning to make it Earth-like, and also say we shouldn't alter or change any indigenous life. They're incompatible goals.


Ayup. "Habitats" is probably a good bit less ambitous than truly terraforming, and therefor more attainable.

I think concern for any possible microbes, etc. native to Mars is overwrought, and should be discarded after some suitably short period of time.

Perhaps after a long enough period of building (aerogel or whatever) protected areas, some could be turned to the task of raising the planet's atmospheric pressure. Maybe, if enough of that can be built (we are talking a loooong time down the road) it could overcome the lack of a magnetosphere. Maybe in conjunction with harvesting asteroids, etc.

Creating enclosed habitats would be a good start though. I think any early efforts at making a permanent presence on Mars is going to require a layer of soil for shielding from radiation. It would be interesting to know more about what aerogel crosssections to various radiation types is.

#4488908 - 09/09/19 09:41 PM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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I still say if you can't manage to establish a true self sustaining colony in Antarctica (and I'm talking deep into the continent, not an "easy" location like McMurdo) then you can forget about doing that on Mars.

And in either hypothetical case everyone's going to be completely vegan, unless they eat the remains of dead humans...

Merely visiting Mars will be hard enough. A permanent human presence (dependent on resupply from Earth) is orders of magnitude harder.

Actual colonization? Not happening unless/until the planet somehow gains a living ecosystem, and even if we DO manage something like that it's going to take at a minimum many, many thousands of years, and probably more like millions...

#4488919 - 09/10/19 12:50 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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The's already been proposals for solar-powered satellites who do nothing but provide a magnetic shield for Mars at the Lagrange point between Mars and the Sun. WOuldn't be an omnidirectional protection, but the main threat is the sun, so it might actually be a workable solution. Far out, the magnetic force doesn't have to be very strong to redirect most of the the solar wind around Mars.


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#4488921 - 09/10/19 01:56 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Beyond the marvels of science and the future perspectives it brings us, I find sort of ironic and very presumptuous that Mankind feels bold enough to even talk about the best course on how to change the atmosphere and the environment of another planet, when our own experience (whether we're climato-sceptic or not I guess it's a given, it's not just a matter of temperature) show that we're pretty incompetent at preserving the habitat and the atmosphere of our own planet...
I'd rather have us putting a little more energy into making sure that we keep what we have livable on the long term, before worrying about making other places livable at all...

Last edited by The_Admiral; 09/10/19 01:58 AM.
#4488923 - 09/10/19 02:59 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Zamzow]  
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Originally Posted by Zamzow
I still say if you can't manage to establish a true self sustaining colony in Antarctica (and I'm talking deep into the continent, not an "easy" location like McMurdo) then you can forget about doing that on Mars.



Antarctica is covered by what, a layer of ice 2 miles thick? You’d have to drill that far just to reach soil & rock, into which you’d have to drill deeper to mine anything. Mars doesn’t have 2 miles of ice in the way.


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#4488929 - 09/10/19 05:11 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Not only that, but anyone living on Mars for a long time would struggle to return to Earth unless we figure out how to prevent muscle loss.


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#4488932 - 09/10/19 07:08 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: NH2112]  
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Originally Posted by NH2112
Originally Posted by Zamzow
I still say if you can't manage to establish a true self sustaining colony in Antarctica (and I'm talking deep into the continent, not an "easy" location like McMurdo) then you can forget about doing that on Mars.

Antarctica is covered by what, a layer of ice 2 miles thick? You’d have to drill that far just to reach soil & rock, into which you’d have to drill deeper to mine anything. Mars doesn’t have 2 miles of ice in the way.

I think he was more hinting at the need to establish a habitat with self-sustaining life support in an environment that, while being the most hostile on this planet, is still more benign than Mars (because it has a breathable atmosphere, a magnetosphere, and (near the coast) animals to hunt for food. "Ecosphere 2" didn't work out too well, we'd need a couple more of those experiments to establish something that reliably works the first time you set it up in near vacuum conditions and sub-zero temperatures.

Drilling rock is the least of your problems on Mars.

#4488935 - 09/10/19 09:30 AM Re: Water found on Mars [Re: The_Admiral]  
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Originally Posted by The_Admiral
Beyond the marvels of science and the future perspectives it brings us, I find sort of ironic and very presumptuous that Mankind feels bold enough to even talk about the best course on how to change the atmosphere and the environment of another planet, when our own experience (whether we're climato-sceptic or not I guess it's a given, it's not just a matter of temperature) show that we're pretty incompetent at preserving the habitat and the atmosphere of our own planet...
I'd rather have us putting a little more energy into making sure that we keep what we have livable on the long term, before worrying about making other places livable at all...


1. The goals for each planet are not mutually exclusive.
2. When it comes to ecological stewardship of the earth, "Mankind" is not a monolithic block. The U.S., for all of its industrial development, etc., has cleaner air and water now, than when I was a child. We can do fine. We don't control the rest of mankind's behavior on earth. Let's not take this to PWEC, though.
3. If one finds Mankind to be inadequate at preserving the earth's habitat, then pursuing development of another habitat as an insurance policy is arguably a logical and worthy goal. For many years (at least), it will be far fewer people on Mars to screw up whatever gets accomplished there.

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