Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
#4486074 - 08/13/19 05:31 PM Hi-Res Audio  
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Red2112 Online content
Member
Red2112  Online Content
Member

Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Airborn
Wall of text incoming!


As a teen I always had my "walkman" with me (still have it). I would instantly be transported to another dimension (always been a bit of a dreamer) listening to my tapes. Later on I bough a portable DAT, and after that a "mini-disc", but both these formats were a bit of a pain as you had to record your tracks on them, which I didn´t mind as I love music, but I got to a point were I had no time to do so. There were some original mini-disc stuff out there but a bit limited to be honest. So with time, I kind of forgot about portability.

Then we have PC´s and CD players as we know them today. Portable CD players were ok but best on your night table, portability had it´s issues skipping tracks and the size of the unit was also bulky. There were other players (Creative), but in general quite expensive and not to user frendly. So portability in the end got degrarded (MP3), and only rose it´s head with Apples iPod´s which really wasent a solution for degraded sound, but a solution to portability.

In the recent years new audio containers have come about to the music scene known as "Lossless" file types/compression and enconders, with higher dynamic range, along with higher bit rates and better compression encoders...
Hi-Res or HD audio

In a nutshell, a "master" quality audio file compressed in a lossless container (FLAC, DSD etc.). There´s alot to this so just trying to make it simple, but feel free to look up digital audio conversion (DAC), sample rates, jitter, amplifier headroom etc.

Lucky enough, for those audiophiles and those who care for there music, in this case in a portable player (DAP), we have Hi-Res audio formats and players (DAP), converters (DAC) to reproduce them. Which is the reason of my post, portable Hi-Res audio for personal enjoyment.

To make things easy, we have 24bit (studio master quality), and 16bit (CD quality). While the purpose of Hi-Res is a better sounding audio file, with less "weight" then the original, we will use FLAC files at 24bit/44.10kHz as our standard file format. Alot will say that at 24bits most people wil not appreciate any audible difference, but same is said about other formats (CD vs vinyl, MP3 vs WAV), and some do apreciate the difference. Wont start a debate about this as it would not make any sence with regards to Hi-Res audio would it? Aside from FLAC files there are other lossless containers, but again just trying to keep it simple.

DAP/DAC players and amps can be as expensive as most audiophile gear out there, and also as feature rich as you may be willing to pay, but you also have very reasonable priced portable devices for almost any budget. There´s plenty of people listening to there music via there smartphone and via streaming (Spotify) at a cost of a monthly payment, wi-fi data transfer and no option to keep there premium downloaded songs. So, once you cancel your premium account you lose your music. Which is one of the reasons I decide to pick up a DAP/DAC portable player, known as DAP, of which some also function as DAC (digital audio converter) which you can also use on your PC. Also, while some companies (Sony, LG) try to make better sounding smartphones, there intent is not for Hi-Res audio.

After a week of diving into this new world (in part, as I have a small DAW at home), I decided to go for a pretty decent entry level DAP/DAC, in my case the HiBy R3...
HiBy R3

I paired it with there HiBy Seeds Headphones (IEM´s - In-Ear Monitors).

There are other companies/models like the Hidiz AP80, Sony NW-a45 and the Fiio M6 with similar features. Fiio also has the M5 which just came out in a smaller format (iPod size) or the Shanling M0, both at about a hundred bucks. The Fiio Mk3 is about 74 bucks and about the cheapest Hi-Res DAP around.

Alot of folks aside from the portablity, look for space saving, considering that you can fit thousands of songs in a 256GB microSD, this is a practical solution. 600+ vinyls take some space, and maybe not as much but so do 600+CD´s so the option is available for those who need that space at home.

You can buy digital downloads form iTunes, although the import format is a bit limited (no FLAC), supports AAC, AIFF, ALE/ALAC (apple lossless), WAV and MP3. But there are other online DRM free shops with more Hi-Res specific formats. I will list some below...

HDtracks:
HDtracks front page

www.Qobuz.com

www.7digital.com

Bandcamp:
Bandcamp - direct from the artist

Probably there´s more out there, these are just the one´s I use so far.

You can also rip your own CD´s to FLAC via Exact Audio Copy, which is a free app (donation if you like), but consider that it will rip to a 16bit/44.10kHz as that´s how the CD was recorded. Not sure if it "upscales" to 24bit, still learning, but it would not make to much scenes me thinks.

Exact Audio Copy:
Exact Audio Copy app

Or Foobar2000 another free ripper/player:
Foobar2000

If you prefer a payware, then dBpoweramp:
dBpoweramp Music Converter

Well, hope it helps anyone who is interested, and for those who are already into Hi-Res portable can share there thoughts/knowledge. Or share what albums you found to sound great in Hi-Res smile2

Enjoy your music.

Red


Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, EVGA GTX 1070ti 8GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB SSD´s, LG 29" Ultrawide 21:9 monitor, Logitech G13 and G502, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pro pedals, TrackIR 5.0, Corsair Void Pro 7.1 USB.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4486093 - 08/13/19 07:40 PM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,051
Alicatt Offline
Hotshot
Alicatt  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,051
Ice Cold in Alex or Eating in ...
Got to watch HD Tracks, as a lot of the original material that they use is not HD quality even though their final output is "HD" 24/96 it is still not HD in the strictest sense of the word as the original recordings are not that high resolution.

Have a look at AIX records http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6553 Marc Waldrep has done some writing and research into Hi Definition audio and lectures at a university on audio recording.

Long time ago I was an engineer in a recording studio, it was my first job after getting my time in as a trainee radar technician, now I'm old and retired and my ears aren't what they used to be, part of my duties was to quality control the recordings and maintain the equipment from the studio right through to the final output LP, cassette tape or CD.

I have a dedicated home cinema with a reasonable quality sound system that I can lock myself away and listen to music or watch films on the big screen (3.5m width)

https://imgur.com/a/nImHm


Chlanna nan con thigibh a so's gheibh sibh feoil
Sons of the hound come here and get flesh
Clan Cameron
#4486095 - 08/13/19 08:08 PM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,717
RedToo Online smile
Member
RedToo  Online Smile
Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,717
Bolton UK
Music means a lot to me. I always want to hear the best quality available or the best I can afford. In car I have to say it's mp3s - there's so much extraneous noise that I think they're acceptable. Out of the car it's flac files at CD or HiRes quality. I listen with a Sony Walkman, Bose 35 over ear headphones or RHA 750 ear buds. The ear buds get the most use, especially in the gym, but the Bose headphones are wonderful for the quality of the noise cancelling. The Walkman is a cheaper player but I'm very happy with the sound quality.

For ripping CDs I use Easy Audio Copy. As the name says it's very easy to use and gives good results. Made by the same guy that does Exact Audio Copy.

Edit: still have my Sony WM-BF60 in full working order!


My 'Waiting for Clod' thread: http://tinyurl.com/bqxc9ee

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell, 1872 - 1970.
Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C.S. Lewis, 1898 - 1963.
#4486106 - 08/13/19 09:34 PM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Red2112 Online content
Member
Red2112  Online Content
Member

Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Airborn
Thanks Alicatt, will read that thumbsup Nice room and Studer!

Although if it´s output is HD (24/96), then it´s going to be hard to tell if it´s true HD then. With a spectrum analyzer maybe? Something in the line of iZotope RX 2? Doubt I would buy it, even on sale but could find other spectrum analyzer plug-in´s. Had one but had to reformat my HDD recently and never got back to looking for my old pluggins.

Havent tried this yet (Lossless Audio Checker)...

Lossless Audio Checker

One way might be (from what I have been seeing), is to check the label/band site. For example, "The Yes Album" deluxe edition reissue is 24bit stated by there site...

It´s on my list to buy.

The Yes Album reissue

But not all bands will give this info.


Thanks guys, glad to see Iam not alone. smile2

Red



Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, EVGA GTX 1070ti 8GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB SSD´s, LG 29" Ultrawide 21:9 monitor, Logitech G13 and G502, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pro pedals, TrackIR 5.0, Corsair Void Pro 7.1 USB.
#4486109 - 08/13/19 10:25 PM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Red2112 Online content
Member
Red2112  Online Content
Member

Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Airborn
@Alicatt,

My guess is that this is the article you meant to link...

Hi-Res Audio HAS Specs

Nice, and yes I agree, it´s about the experience of the listening that the user has while listening to a Hi-Res audio track, along with bigger numbers (higher specs).

Thanks again,

Red


Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, EVGA GTX 1070ti 8GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB SSD´s, LG 29" Ultrawide 21:9 monitor, Logitech G13 and G502, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pro pedals, TrackIR 5.0, Corsair Void Pro 7.1 USB.
#4486112 - 08/13/19 10:47 PM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,051
Alicatt Offline
Hotshot
Alicatt  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,051
Ice Cold in Alex or Eating in ...
For the car I burn DVDs to play through the Harmon Kardon Dolby Logic7 sound system in my Range Rover, I bought an iPod classic when I got the car built for me as an iPod dock was an option for the sound system. The car will be 12 years old in October. It will play MP3 files through a USB connection in the glovebox that was part of the installation, along with a L/R audio in, tho it is limited to a 256MB memory stick, it will play the music from an iPhone's (3,4,5,6 those are the ones I have tried) memory though the USB even though they have 64GB memory.

I use Cirlinca's HD-Audio Solo to burn DVD-V, DVD-A and Blurays, from audio files

In the cinema I have a Pioneer SC-LX90 Susano surround amp playing into a set of PMC OB1i speakers with a Rel Storm Sub* to provide that extra bit of deep bass, it is fed from an Oppo BDP-83 Bluray player that so far will play anything I have put in it, SACD, DVD-A, DVD-V, Blurays as well as files from a thumb drive. Have you heard Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon on SACD? in glorious surround Mmmmm Pink Floyd remastered it for release on SACD and it is great.

Also in the kit are a PS3, Telenet cable DVR box, Humax satellite receiver/recorder, JVC S-VHS VCR (professional model with no macrovision ), Sony CD/Mini disc player/recorder, Pioneer KRF-9000 projector



* The REL Storm is a Storm ii with the amp that would later be fitted to the Storm iii, it has about 150W compared with the older Storm ii's 100W and it has a single 12" driver compared with 2 10" on the Storm iii


Chlanna nan con thigibh a so's gheibh sibh feoil
Sons of the hound come here and get flesh
Clan Cameron
#4486115 - 08/13/19 11:10 PM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,051
Alicatt Offline
Hotshot
Alicatt  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,051
Ice Cold in Alex or Eating in ...
Now in the bedroom I have another Pioneer amp and Bluray player feeding a set of Tannoy P-30 speakers which I bought in 1998 for my first home cinema. for our sun lounge and outside on the patio I'm using my old Teac AG-D9300 surround receiver I got to feed the Tannoys back in '98

And yes it is about the music, back home in Scotland my system there dates from the early 70s it is a Sansui AU-555 amp it is fed from a Rogers/Thorens deck with SME 2000 arm with a Sure cartridge and a Marantz CD player and it feeds a pair of Mission Audio speakers and it still sounds great today as it did back in the 70s, tho it has gone through a few sets of speakers along the way.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Man I need to dust the next time I go back home biggrin


Chlanna nan con thigibh a so's gheibh sibh feoil
Sons of the hound come here and get flesh
Clan Cameron
#4486121 - 08/14/19 12:21 AM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Red2112 Online content
Member
Red2112  Online Content
Member

Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Airborn
Oh my, what a coincedence Alicatt!

I too have a Sansui AU-555, and a Thorens TD280 MkII. Had a pair of Infinity 3 ways but the went bad on me, so on the hunt for news speakers someday.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Great amp for vinyls!

Did spend alot of time over at the Audiokarma forums and the Gearzlut forums in the past.


Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, EVGA GTX 1070ti 8GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB SSD´s, LG 29" Ultrawide 21:9 monitor, Logitech G13 and G502, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pro pedals, TrackIR 5.0, Corsair Void Pro 7.1 USB.
#4486319 - 08/15/19 09:07 PM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Red2112 Online content
Member
Red2112  Online Content
Member

Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Airborn
A users comment to the below article, which I think serves the purpose of Hi-Res audio to some extent...

Obviusly targeted for debat, as all new things in life.

Hi-Res deceiving Consumers

I recognise that I’m about a year behind the other comments here. I totally agree that it’s mastering, not ‘file size’ that makes the difference. I can’t tell the difference between the same recording at 256 AAC or above.

However I do have some HDTracks files (The original Star Wars trilogy LP releases) at 192/24. These do sound different (better) to the CD releases I previously owned. But I realised it’s the mastering of these, not the file size.

My point is that we know good quality mastering is our goal. But that this isn’t commercially viable for most listeners as the article suggests. So maybe High Res audio (and equipment) has a place not because it in itself sounds better, but it creates a commercial opportunity for mastering to be properly done by engineers to be sold at the higher prices.

I’d be happy to pay higher digital prices for High Res music if in fact I was buying better mastering. I’ve made my peace now with High Res music but will choose wisely.


Again, in a nut shell, what always matters most in a audio chain is the source. Pair that with good gear, and there´s the point of it all.



Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, EVGA GTX 1070ti 8GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB SSD´s, LG 29" Ultrawide 21:9 monitor, Logitech G13 and G502, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pro pedals, TrackIR 5.0, Corsair Void Pro 7.1 USB.
#4486324 - 08/15/19 10:09 PM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 984
Zamzow Offline
Member
Zamzow  Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 984
Red2112 - Thank you for this thread, I was actually about to post about this subject to look for opinions/experiences with better file formats than mp3. I plan on getting into this early next year (well hopefully if I get some other goals out of the way by then...)

#4486370 - 08/16/19 10:07 AM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,051
Alicatt Offline
Hotshot
Alicatt  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,051
Ice Cold in Alex or Eating in ...
Red2112, when I was putting together my home cinema I auditioned many speakers and it came down to 2 sets, the PMC OB1i and a set of Pioneer branded TAD 1, it was very close but in a blind trial I settled on the PMC OB1i and they were about half the cost of the TADs.

It was kind of the same with my first system, I already knew the Tannoy speakers and loved the sound from them but I had come in at the end of their manufacturing cycle and it took me a little while to find the centre speaker, at the time I lived in the far north of Scotland and the HiFi shop I was using was in Newcastle but they let me take home different pieces of equipment to trial in my home. I liked the Teac amp when combined with the Tannoy speakers it was a good match and the fact that I'm still using them today speaks well of their construction.

What you are saying about the mastering of the original recording is very true, when we were making CDs, cassettes and records for others at Grampian Records we rejected a lot of master recordings for not being good enough as we did not want to put our names on an inferior product. We were the first studio in the UK outside of London to put in a Dolby A system for the master tapes, it was fun calibrating that smile

Originally Posted by Wiki Dolby
Dolby A
Dolby A was the company's first noise reduction system, presented in 1965.[1] It was intended for use in professional recording studios, where it became commonplace, gaining widespread acceptance at the same time that multitrack recording became standard. The input signal is split into frequency bands by four filters with 12 dB per octave slopes, with cutoff frequencies (3 dB down points) as follows: high–pass at 80 Hz; band–pass from 80 Hz to 3 kHz; a low–pass from 3 kHz; and another low–pass at 9 kHz. (The stacking of contributions from the two low-pass bands allows greater noise reduction in the upper frequencies.) The compander circuit has a threshold of -40 dB, with a ratio of 2:1 for a compression/expansion of 10 dB. This provides about 10 dB of noise reduction increasing to a possible 15 dB at 15 kHz, according to articles written by Ray Dolby in JAES (October 1967) and Audio (June/July 1968).
As with the "B" system, correct matching of the compression and expansion processes is important. The calibration of the expansion (decoding) unit for magnetic tape uses a flux level of 185 nWb/m, which is the level used on industry calibration tapes such as those from Ampex; this is set to 0 VU on the tape recorder playback and to Dolby Level on the noise reduction unit. In the record (compression or encoding) mode a characteristic tone (Dolby Tone) generated inside the noise reduction unit is set to 0 VU on the tape recorder and to 185 nWb/m on the tape.
Dolby A also saw some use as the method of noise reduction in optical sound for motion pictures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_noise-reduction_system

The files are just containers for the data and you can put any old garbage in them, it all starts with how it is first captured then recorded, mastered and mixed down to what you want the output to be, and the whole chain has to be done as good as possible. I was not a sound engineer, my job was the electronics and keeping everything working to achieve the best quality we could, it was my first task of the day was to make sure everything was aligned mechanically and electrically.

It does not really convey the size of the PMC speaker but I can comfortably lean my elbow on top of them smile

Attached Files PMC6.jpg

Chlanna nan con thigibh a so's gheibh sibh feoil
Sons of the hound come here and get flesh
Clan Cameron
#4486637 - 08/19/19 07:46 AM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Red2112 Online content
Member
Red2112  Online Content
Member

Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Airborn
Thought I would drop this in here...

I havent heard my HiBy Seeds yet as the package is inbound from Hong Kong right now, but just in case they don´t resolve, then these might be a good option. I don´t plan to hit the $150 mark for IEM´s in a near future so trying to keep it all at a decent price/quality range, which most might be doing so too, at least for starters.



TIN Hi-Fi T2 Pro product page

Red


Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, EVGA GTX 1070ti 8GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB SSD´s, LG 29" Ultrawide 21:9 monitor, Logitech G13 and G502, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pro pedals, TrackIR 5.0, Corsair Void Pro 7.1 USB.
#4486640 - 08/19/19 08:50 AM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Red2112 Online content
Member
Red2112  Online Content
Member

Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Airborn
Anotther video from Steve G. and his insight with regards to Hi-Res...

My personel thoughts with all this Hi-Res deal is as I stated in my first post, portability. That´s were I find use of Hi-Res, and/or Redbook audio/files. The benefit of good quality portable music, there is also the fact that with headphones/IEM´s one might enjoy a true Hi-Res recording. Otherwise, one would be in need of a dedictaed sound room (acusticaly sound designed and treated). Since not everybody can have such a room and or want to bother there neighbors, we then have headphones, and there sources, be them as portable or desk.

Personally Iam a vinyl guy, I think it´s the best sounding source to my ears, better when mached with gear of it´s time, becaues that´s how it was meant to sound and reason why I keep my Sansui, or any other amp that I can grab at a flea market that are of that era (I have others). I also have a good amount of CD´s and enjoy them too, but If I can choose, give me older vinyl recordings and the enjoyment of finding such recordings smile2

But as stated by others, CD´s and/or Hi-Res containers are more practical, there´s no need to clean your LP´s or take care of your gear (needles) and now, portability is a real thing, with the added choice of Hi-Res recordings (master). So for me it´s not a trend thing, it all comes down to portabilty for quality music on the go.

If you do want to learn more about audio Hi-Res and the like, I suggest the book, "Mastering Audio" by Bob Katz, a legend in the field of audio.


It´s worth reading the comments of the video too.


Red

Here´s a quick breakdown of Hi-Res and it´s gear...
Hi-Res Audio everything you need to know



Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, EVGA GTX 1070ti 8GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB SSD´s, LG 29" Ultrawide 21:9 monitor, Logitech G13 and G502, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pro pedals, TrackIR 5.0, Corsair Void Pro 7.1 USB.
#4486662 - 08/19/19 01:39 PM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Red2112 Online content
Member
Red2112  Online Content
Member

Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Airborn
Just another TIN T2 review...

If your sensitive to F bombs, don´t watch!



Red


Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, EVGA GTX 1070ti 8GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB SSD´s, LG 29" Ultrawide 21:9 monitor, Logitech G13 and G502, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pro pedals, TrackIR 5.0, Corsair Void Pro 7.1 USB.
#4486690 - 08/19/19 05:32 PM Re: Hi-Res Audio [Re: Red2112]  
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Red2112 Online content
Member
Red2112  Online Content
Member

Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 789
Airborn
We will slowly but surely learn in smile2



Red


Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, EVGA GTX 1070ti 8GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB SSD´s, LG 29" Ultrawide 21:9 monitor, Logitech G13 and G502, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pro pedals, TrackIR 5.0, Corsair Void Pro 7.1 USB.

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Joke: "I'm tired of you. I'm leaving!!"
by Bill_Grant. 12/14/19 02:43 PM
Eagle VS Octopus
by rwatson. 12/14/19 01:03 PM
50 Cal's
by carrick58. 12/14/19 04:21 AM
His Dark Materials (possible small spoilers)
by NH2112. 12/14/19 04:15 AM
103 mph AVERAGE across the USA!
by Nixer. 12/12/19 02:22 PM
Russian Aircraft Carrier Kuznetsov on fire
by Tom_Weiss. 12/12/19 11:45 AM
Re floating of the USS Oklahoma
by 3instein. 12/12/19 08:26 AM
Are we having too many children?
by NoFlyBoy. 12/12/19 03:03 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0