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#4483727 - 07/22/19 03:19 PM CRPGs  
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Sort of a catch-all thread. I recently picked up another one of these games, and over the past few years we have seen a resurgence in the genre. Older 'classic' titles are fine to discuss too, especially as some have received remastered versions recently.

I'll start with the new one, Pathfinder:Kingmaker.

Pathfinder:Kingmaker

Have only recently started this one, and unlike most runs in this sort of game, I have re-rolled my start a number of times. Seems good from what I have seen (the prologue four times :D). I have a lot of experience in these sorts of games, but with Kingmaker I find the upgrade system dense. There is an overriding fear that early choices will lock me out of later game choices that I might want. Most RPGs have robust leveling/feats/skill systems, but Kingmaker is one that I struggle to feel I've made choices I can live with and won't regret down the line.

I haven't played far enough to have a solid opinion of it, but the early game evokes the classics like Baldur's Gate, and Planescape. We'll see how I feel after getting further along. Combat is RTwP, which is OK-ish. Some folks will like it better, but personally I like turn-based combat in these games. Thankfully there is a turn-based combat mod, which I installed after a few hours.

Good UI, voice acting, graphics. A moderate amount of non-voiced text. Very interesting multi-class character creation/levelling. A ridiculous amount of choices and customization. Reportedly the story is very good. I'll know more in time.

It's also one of, if not the, first to include a strategic side. After a bit you get your own barony which you lord over. Haven't gotten that far so don't know if it's fluff or fun.

Tyranny

Didn't click with me. Interesting premise, good reviews. I played a few hours then shelved it. Not sure why, but it didn't grab me. Maybe I'll give it another go. By most reports it's a good RPG that perhaps I didn't give a fair shake to.

Pillars of Eternity

This one I did like. It's dark and with RTwP combat. A ton of text reading to do, but very well written. Really good story, mechanics and character variety. Weapons include swords and guns as well as the requisite magic users. As mentioned I am not a big fan of RTwP combat, but the story and writing make up for it. Good game.

PoE 2 (Deadfire) has since come out to good reviews. It's been on my wishlist forever, and I struggled to decide whether to buy this one or Kingmaker. I bought Kingmaker because of the strategy game part. But I will get Deadfire before too long.

Divinity Original Sin

Two games, 1 and 2. Really liked both of these games. Not a good inventory system, which in these sorts of games is a crime. But virtually everything else shines for me. Especially the combat, which, of all the CRPGs I've played, remains my favorite. The interactivity of various spells, environments and elementals is endlessly fun to play with.

Which CPRGs do you like, which would you recommend and why?



Last edited by DBond; 07/22/19 05:46 PM.

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#4483729 - 07/22/19 03:47 PM Re: CPRGs [Re: DBond]  
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Been a bit off and on lately with CRPGs.

Pillars of Eternity: Played the first, dropped it 1/3rd into until they changed some key aspects then played storymode just to get the story done.
Pillars of Eternity 2: Just picked it up on sale and started it. Enjoying it - about 21 hours played so far.
Divinity Original Sin: Loved the game, but some aspects (the equipment stuff) annoyed me. But the spells and characters was amazing. I liked the idea of not being led by the nose but instead having to ask around for quest stuff.
Divinity Original Sin 2: Loved it as well,
Tyarnny: More a simulator than a real CRPG I think - but I enjoyed it and the decisions and such you have to make.

Pathfinder - Kingmaker: Bought it in the sale but haven't fired it up yet.

ANd the great news is that the Divnity Original Sin-makers are going to make Baldur's Gate 3 biggrin

#4483731 - 07/22/19 03:56 PM Re: CPRGs [Re: DBond]  
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Can you say a little more about Tyranny, what you liked about it? Maybe I just have to stick it out a bit longer.

Larian is making BG3? Good choice (for developer and property)


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4483732 - 07/22/19 05:06 PM Re: CPRGs [Re: DBond]  
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I think your title needs fixing (CPRGs)?

My favs and to many whys, which will not always fit everyone...

Recent:

- UnderRail (still playing)
- ATOM RPG (still playing)
- Divinity Original Sin 2 (still playing)
- Deity Empires (still playing)

Past:

- Shadowrun Dragonfall
- Avernum Escape From the Pit
- Age of Wonders II and III

Played the D&D classics BG I and II, Neverwinter etc.



Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, EVGA GTX 1070ti 8GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB SSD´s, LG 29" Ultrawide 21:9 monitor Logitech G13, G502, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pro pedals, TrackIR 5.0, Corsair Void Pro 7.1 USB.
#4483736 - 07/22/19 05:48 PM Re: CPRGs [Re: DBond]  
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Edited, and you were correct.

What do you like about those you listed Red?


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4483737 - 07/22/19 05:48 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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Two on my to-play list...

- Avernum 3: Ruined World

- Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura

All bought at GOG smile2


Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, EVGA GTX 1070ti 8GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB SSD´s, LG 29" Ultrawide 21:9 monitor Logitech G13, G502, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pro pedals, TrackIR 5.0, Corsair Void Pro 7.1 USB.
#4483738 - 07/22/19 05:54 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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#4483756 - 07/22/19 07:53 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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I've been playing Pillars of Eternity off and on. I had some hours into it a couple of years ago but then somehow the save file system in the game got messed up.(A problem I read others had too) I've recently tried to get back into it. I want to like but I basically can't do anything of value in combat. I'm assuming the starting level with one of the first available quests to go into that cave with a bear is something that you don't necessarily have to or can do at the beginning. I can't do squat against that bear so I moved on to try and find other quests that I could complete and get some experience. I also get overwhelmed with the vast micro level of character and combat aspects and their many, many stats. Almost too much for me. I guess I'm more used to a simplified rpg system like Titan Quest. I really like PoE atmosphere and really want to get into it but I find that even after a handful of hours everything has a significant grind to it right from the beginning which is something that I find distracts me from actually understanding how to play the game.

#4483758 - 07/22/19 08:15 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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Coot, if you want to try a different game, give Divinity Original Sin (2) a go. The combat is turn based and I think better, and certainly easier to get a handle on than RTwP which can be overwhelming. Or you end up pausing so often that it may as well have been turn based from the get go. The first DoS game is really good too.

As to the stats, that's par for the course. That stuff appeals to me, but I can see where you are coming from. For me the overwhelming part is often gear and loot. I have trouble NOT picking everything up in case it may prove useful, and combined with the often poor inventory systems can be a bit much.

I don't recall the bear cave you are speaking of. Perhaps it's just meant for a higher level? Do you have a party yet?

OK, I googled it and it's a tough fight that lots of folks had trouble with. Seems to be meant for later with a full party. Try again later with some levelled companions.

Last edited by DBond; 07/22/19 08:47 PM.

Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4483773 - 07/22/19 11:07 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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Add Torment Tides lf Numenera to the list.
But really the original Planescape Torment is to me the ultimate. You can even play it on am Android tablet now


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#4483774 - 07/22/19 11:14 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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Also the Drafon Age games


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#4483775 - 07/22/19 11:25 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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I've played way too many RPGs to list here. My favorites are classics such as Ultima 6, 7, Ultima Underworld, Eye of the Beholder 1 and 2, Dark Heart of Uuukrul, Baldurs Gate 2, etc.

There's way more I have played. However, this is about newer RPGs, or ones I have played more recently in the last several years.

Recent Likes:
1) Divine Divinity. Larian's first. I hate Diablo, but DD was a lot like Diablo mixed with Ultima 7. Great game!
2) The Legend of Grimrock 1 and 2. Perfectly capture the Eye of the Beholder/Dungeon Master feel. Awesome.
3) Might and Magic X Legacy. Also captures the Dungeon Master/Might and Magic 3/Worlds of Xeen feel. Very fun. Haven't beaten yet.

Recent Dislikes:
1) Dragon Age Origins. They stole their plot from everything. Even quests. The combat was good, but the plotting really ruined the game for me, otherwise it would have been good.

Recent Undecideds:
1) The Witcher 3. Great game, but I can't get into it. Probably because my computer is so crappy for the game (3770k @ 4.2 ghz + 670 GTX), but whatever the reason, I can't play for more than a day or two before stopping for a year. I've been playing the same save for three or four years now off and on. I had a similar problem with Witcher 2. Witcher 1 was amazing, but that too I had to start over three times before I got into it.
2) Divinity 2. Action RPG that is neat but wish could have a different combat system. Doesn't have the charm that Divine Divinity had, plus I wish the dragon flight allowed me to use spacebar and alt to vertically ascend and descend. I think that alone would help the game a bit. Still, has some interesting plot points.
3) Grim Dawn. Really fun action RPG, and allows you to use gamepad! Diablo was Gauntlet, and Gauntlet needs to be played with a controller. Really fun game but I'm undecided so far.


Honorable Mention:
Morrowind Overhaul 3.0. Morrowind, with modern graphics and sound. How can you go wrong? The other TES games such as Oblivion and Skyrim are crap compared to Morrowind.

#4483776 - 07/22/19 11:26 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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The only recent title in this broad genre which caught my interest at all has been Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

I have watched others playing some of the other mentioned titles and mostly enjoyed them, but they aren't "for" me.

I'm not much of a loot-hoor, stat-chasing numbers increasing is great sort of person. Often ends up feeling like a collection game and a spreadsheet (which can be fun in it's own right), and less of game in which I have a role which I play.

I did like the 'toned down' versions of The Witcher (FRC 1.6b) and The Witcher 2 (FCR 2) both of which reduced the slightly 'over the top' magic and magic items and number creep that were prevalent in the vanilla games. Still exaggerated compared to the source materials by quite a lot, but more tolerable for me.

I found the level scaling prevalent through Witcher 3 to be a bit offputting, even though I did enjoy it in aggregate, it was bothersome that a level 30 sword was for no reason at all 10x as strong as a perfectly fine sword I was using at level 1... plus all the skill and stat increases that magnify either of these by up to 4-5 times on top of that basic increase. This was also particularly weird in this game, as Geralt had "fully recovered" his memories, and abilities and had been actively "witchering" on the path for the past 6 months, apparently without retaining *any* of the skills and knowledge he had recovered during that recovery process, and had a limp noodle and a tissue paper armour.

I came from Runequest, rather than D&D, where a 'highly skilled' PC has a lot of skill in weapons use and defence, but still only has the same resistance to wounding and death that a beginning character has if/when he gets hit... vs the artificial increasing of damage resistance/avoidance via AC and the huge hit point/hit dice pools of higher level characters.

I am somewhat dismayed that *so* much of CRPG is D&D, and so little is the more grounded style of BRP or even of some of the more narrative or grounded modern types. Also so much falls on repetitive, grindy & 'inexpensive" low stakes combat... there are seldom long term consequences of getting into an illegal/risky/injurious fight. Frequently fights become cheesy - consuming enough healing items to stay alive while slowly reducing damage sponges (or huge numbers of mobs), maybe exiting to use more healing/recover abilities and rinse-repeat until success. None of this feels very - "role" playing, but more grinding/cheesing murder-hoboing - all fun in their own way, and definitely 'game' but it doesn't always feel like playing a role.

Even KCD does still fall foul of most of those tropes. It does *try* very hard to make a shape for the player to follow in 'the world', and it does nudge and encourage with in character prods to be a "Good and merciful Christian" and calls you out for your sins to a limited degree, but there are still design elements which deliver number creep with levelling, that present a limitless array of bandits to murder if that so suits you, and minimal consequences for transgressions the majority of the time. (Though with a few harsh outcomes leavened in - the avoidable deaths of quest companions for mis-speaking at the wrong time to the wrong person - your own execution for gross transgressions at a few discrete points, and the option to fail to even complete the tutorial).

#4483791 - 07/23/19 02:32 AM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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I haven't played it much but I like Grim Dawn as well Blastman. Made by Titan Quest folks and I'm a fan of Titan Quest. I still play my original 2007 Gold edition version.

I supposed its not a cRPG really but I love Expedition: Conquistador. Its probably the first game that got me liking turned based combat. I never liked turned based or strategy much as a teen but I really enjoy it in Conquistador. I like the setting and the music is great. It really has a charm about it. I find the combat fun. Moving characters around hexes and they all have different abilities or roles. I also like the scenes where combat takes place whether its in jungle or in a ruin and I also like the animations and reactions of characters in combat. It has a tactile sound and feel.

I also have Legends of Eisenwald who I think are friends with the Expedition developers. I've only played a little of it but I'm not sure I like the combat yet. Its basically turned based like in Conquistador but your units don't actually move from what I can tell. Your guys are just lined up however you have them configured and then each takes a turn making an attack. I don't like that. I like Conquistador's style because you can actually move your guys around the hexes, trying to flee or flank enemies and even surround vulnerable enemies with multiple troops.

#4483943 - 07/24/19 01:13 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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Neverwinter Nights 2 came out in 2006 and I think it was the first one of these sorts of games that I really liked. Until then, party RPGs weren't my thing. But this one played great (especially with the Mask of the Betrayer expansion). The banter between Khelgar and Neeshka was highly entertaining, the crafting was cool and the gameplay and story were good, even if the combat sort of sucked. IIRC, it was after that game that I tried the classics, including NWN 1, which I did not like for whatever reason. But BG2, Planescape, Icewind Dale and more followed and I found I really enjoyed this sort of game. Of course after a bit these sorts of games fell by the wayside, until the recent resurgence of the genre.

Has anyone played any of the remastered versions of these old-school classics?

I've played Pathfinder:Kingmaker up to the end of Act 1. I still can't escape the nagging sensation that I'm making regrettable leveling choices, but there is respec so it really isn't a big deal. I like the game, but it's not captivating me, yet anyway. Combat with the turn-based mod is better for me, initiative actually has value at least. But the combat isn't fun in the same way I found it was in DOS, but that's a high target and I don't expect that every game will improve on it. The 'camp' mechanic works well, the game is well written, story seems good. After finishing Act 1 I move on to the kingdom side of the game and I'm eager to see how that plays out. Comments from players are mixed.

I like the de-emphasis on gear, which is always something I struggle with in most party RPGs. So much stuff, and each character (not to mention the ones cooling their heels back at base) needs attention and different gear, with different bonuses to synergize with their builds, and it can all become a bit of chore.

Many player reviews complained about balance, but I haven't had any trouble with that. They recently made many changes in response to player feedback, so I believe a lot of the early complaints had been dealt with by the time I bought the game a few days ago. There's little groundbreaking in P:K, but it's a solid DnD 3.5 game. And hopefully the Act 2 stuff will be cool.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4483949 - 07/24/19 02:06 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
CRPG is isometric, or my definition of it is, at least. Think Baldur's Gate, Planescape, NWN, Fallout 1 and 2 and the like.



Back during the glory days of CRPG's I was almost entirely a flight sim, racing sim and first person shooter player so I didn't pay attention to that genre. My first RPG was Knights of the Old Republic and even though I took a look at games like Baldur's Gate and Planescape, the whole isometric set up just doesn't do it for me.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/24/19 02:07 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4483953 - 07/24/19 02:37 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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KOTOR is a classic for sure! One of the best of it's ilk I reckon. 2003-ish or thereabouts.

It's no surprise that these games aren't your thing. Well, not you specifically necessarily. It's just that as PC games bloomed through the 2000s, with better and better graphics and gameplay, that old-school isometric RPGs were left behind. These sorts of games lacked the flash that newer games were flush with. So they more or less stopped making them.

But I like good gameplay, writing and intricate systems and mechanics. And these areas are where these sorts of games tend to be strong (and part of why I am in to strategy games as well). While they lack the flash, they make up for it with substance. I tend to like any game that forces me to make considered choices and struggle with the opportunity cost of those choices.

While the gameplay in Kingmaker is solid if unspectacular, the character building is immensely intricate. One of the best multi-class character building games I've played. Maybe the best as I can't really think of another that has so much potential for character creativity and synergy of class mixing. This part of the game really shines. Too bad level cap is 20. Double that would give double the fun smile


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4483963 - 07/24/19 03:35 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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If you want to explore classic CRPGs, DBond, this guy's blog is an awesome guide:

http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/

I've been reading him for years. His goal is to play every single CRPG in existence, in somewhat chronological order. He also maintains spreadsheets of games he is going to play, and those he has with ratings that you can view. There are some /very/ good CRPGs I'm sure you've never heard of or played that are pre-1993, and if you can get around the graphical limitations, may find a good time to be had.

#4483966 - 07/24/19 03:58 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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Cool thanks I'll check that out. The point you make about accepting the old-school graphics is a good one. I'm not one of those that put too much importance on that. But there is some sort of threshold, and sometimes I cannot get past it. That's why these remastered versions hold interest for me. And it's another reason why the resurgence has so much appeal for me. The same sort of old-school gameplay but with modern graphical touches and GUIs, systems and mechanics that benefit from modern standards. So in many ways it goes beyond just graphics and extends in to the other aspects of the games. One small thing about Kingmaker.... inventory is shared between party members. A small touch, but one that has far-reaching effect. In DOS 1 for example, each member had his/her own inventory. But only certain party members could either identify or use certain items. So the amount of screen-swapping and inventory juggling was high. With this simple shared inventory in Kingmaker, all of that is gone. Each member contributes their strength to what the party can carry. But no trudging through each character to work with it. A nice touch, a QOL improvement.

Another one is in many CRPGs you'll have certain party members who can perform certain tasks, let's say disarm a trap. In most games you need to select that character and give orders. In Kingmaker, just clicking the trap automaticlly selects the character in your party most suited for the task. Over-simplified? For some it will be. Others, including the not-getting-any-younger me, find these types of changes most welcome.

While KOTOR was a great game, I don't classify it as a CRPG. Semantics.

But this is an interesting article about the making of KOTOR. It mentions that in 2003 it was faster to give an employee a disk and fly them to Germany to do the German version than it was to try and transfer over the net. 48 hours to transfer, or 12 hours to fly. Haha, old stuff biggrin

https://www.polygon.com/2019/4/9/18...-republic-cut-planet-development-bioware

Blastman, I checked out that site. The man is playing some really OLD-school RPGs! 1981 to 1992. Very interesting, thanks for sharing the link. But all of those games are on the other side of the threshold for me smile


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4483971 - 07/24/19 04:51 PM Re: CRPGs [Re: DBond]  
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Time really does fly by as you get older. It's still mind-boggling to me that I was playing KOTOR 16 years ago. It feels more like it was just a couple of years ago.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/24/19 04:51 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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