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#4479716 - 06/24/19 11:25 AM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: Evil Flower]  
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Originally Posted by Evil Flower
We tried to have that 'immersion' factor in both Atlantic Fleet and Cold Waters.



It's my understanding that Cold Waters sold very well on Steam.


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#4479733 - 06/24/19 02:35 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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Sims have become higher fidelity, but for some reason lost the fun that should accompany it. Structured campaigns AND dynamic campaigns, stories, characters, various environments...
I guess it bouls down to spending money to do one aspect intensely, but leaving the rest by the wayside.

As for naval gmes, there seem to be several sub sims, but why not battleship/cruiser/destroyer/carrier? I love running them in the Battlestations games, but those aren’t sims. I don’t want to play a sub. Even in a strategy format instead of first person sim would be great. And not just text missions, make it actually fun to play something more on the serious side.


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#4479734 - 06/24/19 02:50 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite


As for naval gmes, there seem to be several sub sims, but why not battleship/cruiser/destroyer/carrier? I love running them in the Battlestations games, but those aren’t sims. I don’t want to play a sub. Even in a strategy format instead of first person sim would be great. And not just text missions, make it actually fun to play something more on the serious side.



World of Warships is wildly popular but I don't think that qualifies as a sim for some people.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4479736 - 06/24/19 03:13 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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It’s fun for sure, but yeah, it’s more MMO style combat. I have no problem with that, like War Thunder tanks/ships too, but I would like a new Battlestations with more detail and possible involvement and management. Ideally, to be able to be ON a ship, even if it means shortcuts to get around.


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#4479738 - 06/24/19 04:14 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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I disagree that the classic sims were decidedly more immersive than what we have now. I think it's 'we' that changed.

Think about it. I loved EAW too. But what about it was 'immersive'? There was a screen that had some period doodads, like a pocket watch, some pencils, probably a medal, a scarf, a snapshot of a Mosquito or something, that sort of stuff. That was it! Other than that it featured campaigns that were little more than connected single missions, where the front line moved. Very basic, yet it's remembered as a great campaign system.

Longbow 2. So immersive right? Why? It had that little base you looked at and clicked on the different buildings. It had the cool opening video of the Apache stalking some APCs or something. Even the campaign was quite simplistic and barebones, but at the time, it was all new and better than what came before. So we loved it, and remember how much we loved it. We don't love that stuff as much now.

We ate it up and remember it fondly, but as time has gone on that stuff no longer holds the same sway over us it once did. Like Panzer said, nostalgia is powerful.


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#4479741 - 06/24/19 04:28 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite

As for naval gmes, there seem to be several sub sims, but why not battleship/cruiser/destroyer/carrier? I love running them in the Battlestations games, but those aren’t sims. I don’t want to play a sub. Even in a strategy format instead of first person sim would be great. And not just text missions, make it actually fun to play something more on the serious side.



Amen brother!

I would love to have a destroyer sim covering just the Guadalcanal campaign. Night battles, naval gunfire support missions for the Marines ashore, anti-submarine patrols, anti-aircraft cover for the transports unloading in the daytime. That would be fantastic. It just seems to me that Ubi could accomplish this easily with the SHIV engine.


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#4479743 - 06/24/19 04:33 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond


We ate it up and remember it fondly, but as time has gone on that stuff no longer holds the same sway over us it once did. Like Panzer said, nostalgia is powerful.


Nostalgia plays a big part but there was also something about the old Sims that hasn't been replicated recently. 1942 Pacific Air War for instance had a wide range of missions, wide range of aircraft and the ability to conduct carrier battles at the tactical level. Nothing like that exists today.

Falcon 4 dynamic campaign hasn't been matched since either.


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4479746 - 06/24/19 04:45 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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Not this "immersion" sh*t again.

I guess I was ahead of my time, but in the old sims all the rinky-dink "immersion features" usually wound up making me sigh. I do not want to click on a map in a briefing room to get the next mission, or the typewriter to change settings, in the main menu. I never once cared about an AI squadmate, and never once wanted to manage a squadron. I signed up to fly missions. I'll leave the management and strategy to others; in a historical sim, NOTHING a single pilot does should change the outcome of the war one iota (unless one is playing Let's Nuke Japan).

While we bemoan the "Achievement Awarded" generation, we played simulations that handed out awards as if they were mints in a bowl on the commander's desk.

Cut scenes? How many times did I see that guy running through no-man's land in Red Baron?

Of all the classic sims, from Aces of the Pacific to Red Baron 3D, did I ever think to myself "Hey, let's jump in and see what the engaging campaign has in store for me! Maybe there will be a neat briefing or something!" I was just there for the flying.

For me, the best story or narrative is the one I create for myself. Loads of people knock both the IL-2 series and Rise of Flight for lacking "immersion," but I never had a problem putting myself in the world and filling in the thankfully large blanks. Indeed, forcing a narrative on me seems like they're telling me how to feel about things and events.

[edit]

If there is any failing in modern sims, it's making a living world. We still haven't gotten to the computing power to populate the ground in an interesting way for flight sims. Would I like to see a "persistent" world, where if I damage a bridge in one mission I see repair work going on the next? Yeah, I would. But it's not a show stopper.

Last edited by Dart; 06/24/19 04:49 PM.

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#4479747 - 06/24/19 04:51 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: Dart]  
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Originally Posted by Dart

While we bemoan the "Achievement Awarded" generation, we played simulations that handed out awards as if they were mints in a bowl on the commander's desk.





You mean to tell me that USAAF pilots didn't get the Congressional Medal of Honor after downing 10 German planes???


wink

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 06/24/19 04:52 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4479756 - 06/24/19 05:42 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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Persistent world, yes please, thumbsup

I'm flying through these DOS submarine sims and will eventually find my way back to Dangerous Waters. Then I'll seek DW mods to see if I can get that illusive old-school single-player immersion I'm looking for.

BTW, kudos to Cold Waters with the 1984 campaign (including President Reagan's resolve). 1984+ is the time-frame I do all of my simming and I will look into this sim one day with a newer PC.

#4479761 - 06/24/19 06:09 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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Originally Posted by MarkG


see if I can get that illusive old-school single-player immersion I'm looking for.




Interesting misspell smile (Illusion/elusive)

What is an example of what you are trying to recapture? Which title most encapsulates the single-player immersion you are looking for?

And I think Falcon is an outlier, and while it's my most-played, most-loved sim of all time, I think you can't really use it as an example, as it was far and away better than anything else, and remains so to this day.

I'd argue that to an extent, immersion is a state of mind, something we 'allow' to happen. What stimulates this for me is the environment. For example, how realistic is the flak? Contrails? Does the furball have sufficient aircraft? Is the radio chatter believable and realistic? Does the damage model believably reflect the cause? People slag Il-2 as lacking immersion, and I get it. But remember the corkscrew smoke trails left by the cannon rounds? So cool. That's an immersive touch, and one that I don't think any prior sim had had.

For me, the GUI screen isn't something that makes, or does not make a sim immersive. It's not the awards screen or the debrief or cutscenes. It's the environment you find yourself in when playing it. Does it feel like you would imagine the real thing to be? Today's sims are in many respects closer to this than the ones we remember so fondly, where the skies were more empty, and graphical and sound touches less than more modern ones that are dismissed.


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#4479765 - 06/24/19 06:32 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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Yeah, that's what I get for bypassing college. smile

Two major Dangerous Waters requests (so far)...

#1 A sub walk-through. Doesn't have to be real-time 3D, just give me an idea of what the inside of the 688 looks likes, not just selected scanners and a periscope view. At least have as much as Jane's 688 with pics of the rooms (real photos or or graphics art). I've never played Jane's 688 so I'm only going by what I see in the screenshots, some on my first post.

#2 A working in-game damage diagram...

[Linked Image]


Attached Files 688_Attack_Damage_Screen.JPG
#4479768 - 06/24/19 06:51 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond

And I think Falcon is an outlier, and while it's my most-played, most-loved sim of all time, I think you can't really use it as an example, as it was far and away better than anything else, and remains so to this day.




But it is over TWENTY YEARS OLD. Graphics have improved vastly in that time, but no one has surpassed the F4 dynamic campaign in that time. I refuse to give sim makers a pass on this.


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4479769 - 06/24/19 07:20 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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+1

Falcon's campaign is the best and has ruined campaign play in any other sim. EECH comes pretty close though, and totally captures that oldschool 1980s Gunship feel. But EECH came out in the late 90s, too...


And wasn't designed by Russians.

#4479771 - 06/24/19 07:30 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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The best I could find, the first 5 or 6 minutes shows a lot of what I'm looking for...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STLZMQi5vIo

...so maybe I'll just stop when I get to Jane's 688(I) Hunter/Killer.

#4479775 - 06/24/19 07:44 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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^ Actually watching the video through, this guy shows a lot of what I'm talking about.

#4479779 - 06/24/19 08:26 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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I enjoyed things like the second CD that came with Janes ATF Gold with all of the real video footage of military planes and all the different Jane's level military information on military platforms it had on them in a condensed format. I also loved Lonbow 2's main screen layout and how different clicks moved you to different areas of the menus that played out like you were moving to and through different locations of the Army base and it incorporated some animations. I liked the pilot's locker room area and clicking on your own locker for some sort of menu with your flight helmet above. I really liked all things like that in the older sims. All these little things added charm and immersion for a player like me. Not only for the reasons mentioned, but I think I'm also drawn to these elements because I was exposed to art graphic and text heavy games/educational games early on like Odell Lake and The Oregon Trail.

Immersion doesn't necessarily mean world or game changing stuff. Immersion can equate to personality at least for me. Many new sims are stale and lack the immersive personality of the older sims in my opinion. I liked that 2D animated fan on the commander's desk with an aircraft in a hanger in the background and the sound of aircraft going overhead and mechanics at work. It doesn't have to be much but these little things add huge flavor to the experience for someone like me. I like flight rosters and briefing/debriefing screens and 2D art drawn pad and pencil in a pilot's hand and that small cut scene of your airplane leaving the hanger and so on.

As far as a newer sim that I think got some of that right is Rise of Flight. It doesn't have the campaign generation like some older sims did better but I love the aesthetic including the animated training segments that are voice acted and how the main screen is a rotating display of whatever your current aircraft selected is and how it hangs earned medals on your main screen which you yourself can manage and move around or hide.

#4479784 - 06/24/19 09:06 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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Anyone familiar with Atlantic Fleet? Window shopping on Steam and it SOUNDS good, but I haven't looked up video yet.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/420440/Atlantic_Fleet/

ABOUT THIS GAME
Turn based tactical and strategic naval combat. Atlantic Fleet puts you in command of the Allies or Kriegsmarine (German Navy) in the longest military campaign of WWII, The Battle of the Atlantic.

Take command of surface ships, submarines as well as carrier and land based aircraft in the deadly struggle for control of Atlantic shipping lanes.
Protect convoys as the Allies or go on the offensive with deadly submarine wolf packs and surface raiders of the German Navy.
Play through 30 historical Single Missions or make your own with the Custom Battle editor.
Take on 50 mission campaigns for each navy and build your own fleet.
Recreate the challenges of the Battle of the Atlantic as you play a Dynamic Campaign with limited resources, historical units, actual convoy routes and real world-based weather.

Features:
No Advertising. No Pay-to-Progress. One Price = full Game
A unique blend of deep strategic planning combined with quick tactical decisions
Play as the Allies or Kriegsmarine (German navy)
Up to 10 versus 10 ships in combat
3 Game Modes:
1) Single Battle Editor along with 30 Historical Missions for standalone combat
2) Campaigns of 50 missions per faction
3) Full Dynamic Campaign from 1939 to 1945
Sink ships with realistic buoyancy physics, not with hit-point bars!
Target specific ship subsystems to sink or cripple the enemy
62 historical ship classes representing over 630 ships and 450 submarines
13 aircraft
Submarine warfare, wolf packs and convoys
Carrier operations and land-based air strikes


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#4479785 - 06/24/19 09:08 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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Coot gets it. cheers Well, probably everyone here gets it, just not everyone wants or cares about it. smile

Once more about the Jane's 688 gameplay video I posted above, the player/commentator (who apparently has played lots of Dangerous Waters) also gets it and makes several references to those nice touches in Jane's 688 that weren't carried forward.

#4479788 - 06/24/19 09:18 PM Re: One area where the progress of sims have failed me. [Re: MarkG]  
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I see what you mean, and I agree. It doesn't take a lot to put the player in the environment. Just a few visual and auditory cues to set the mood. The recent Battletech game is like that. Static images, but voiced and it has a basic story that play along with doing what you want when you want. After the story, you just keep on playing. On the Xbox360 Over G FIghters was similar. Just enough effort to give you a sense of some surroundings other than your desk in front of you. LOL
Most sims have the character of a spreadsheet.
Even tiny efforts to create the illusion of "living the life" goes a long way. It doesn't take much.


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