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#44788 - 09/18/01 04:05 AM It's All a Matter of Your Perspective?  

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I have just started reading this and I am wondering a few things. Andy suggest

"Step two is then to practice these maneuvers using the player-to-target external view. If your simulation does not offer this view, then get one that does."

Could you suggest a Sim that has this if not in a WW2 based sim then one that uses the F4 Phantom?

Also if you used 2 models of fighters on sticks and copied moves from the books would this do any good?
Just wondering.
2Fast

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#44789 - 09/18/01 04:54 AM Re: It's All a Matter of Your Perspective?  
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2Fast

Janes simulations offer a good external view...look for Janes WW2 Fighters. Many other sims also include a player-to-target external view. For beginners, I recommend Janes Fighters Anthology. I'm enjoying flying the new Il-2 demo using its external view.

The use of models is an excellent learning tool...in fact, it is how we teach BFM in the military. It is this use of models (or, in a pinch, your hands) that is the reason for my advocacy of the external view. This is how I learned BFM...it is how I visualized the fight in a real engagement...and it is how I fly a sim if a view is provided. The external view gives me a better look at the "big picture" of a BFM problem...the major drawback is the lack of flight data (airspeed, altitude, etc) in many externals.

I use the external view to maneuver with...to break down angle off/aspect problems and control closure. Once I have myself more or less aligned with the bandit, I switch to the forward view (or even padlock) to finish the attack.

Andy

#44790 - 09/18/01 07:24 AM Re: It's All a Matter of Your Perspective?  
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Janes USAF has good external views, and some with good flight info. It has a (F3)padlock view to see the bad guy in perspective to your aircraft (cockpit), the (F7) view shows your plane in perspective to bad guy (external)...another click shows the other way. F4 view shows bad guy external. F8 view shows "arcade view" (external of your acft with flight info).

It also has the F-4E. [Linked Image]

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#44791 - 09/18/01 02:20 PM Re: It's All a Matter of Your Perspective?  

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Andy How dose using the external view compare with your real life experience?
When I fly a sim I like to get it as close to real as I can. Since there is a hole spectrum of things I will never experience such as the High G loading blacking out Air sickness [Linked Image] and other things I don’t even know im missing. I am Reluctant to use the target to Enemy View for any thing other than training and if I can use the models on sticks I will probably go that rout and build a copal of models

#44792 - 09/18/01 04:37 PM Re: It's All a Matter of Your Perspective?  
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2Fast

No view in our sims gives the same perspective as a real life pilot has...all we can do is design sim views that will provide as much info as possible within the limits of a monitor. Most views are so narrow in scope that they are like looking at something through a paper tube.

The external player-to-target view increases the boundaries of other view types...simply put, the player sees more.

But there is more to the issue than just the amount of airspace being viewed. In BFM, the pilot must see three things...his relationship to the bandit, his relationship to the horizon, and the bandit's relationship to the horizon.

Why? Because the placement of the pilot's lift vector is dependent on bandit AND horizon position. Stick models allow pilots to analyze specific situations with attention to lift vector orientation.

So...which view is "like real life"? None. But some are better than others...and when considering what is needed to effectively fly BFM (horizon location, fuselage alignment, closure, etc), my opinion is that the external view provides the most effective way of solving traditional BFM problems...followed by the padlock as a distant second. Snap views come in third but are so lacking in their ability to meet the basic requirements I mentioned above, that I rarely ever use them.

Which I'm sure will bring howls of protest from some. In the 10+ years that I've been involved in this view discussion, I've heard all the arguments. I'm not anti-snap view. In some situations such as checking the airspace around the pilot, the views are good and do replicate what a real life pilot would see. But there the similarity ends. BFM is by definition split-plane maneuvering. In order to maneuver out of plane, the pilot must be able to see his relationship to the horizon and the bandit. This can only be done with snap views by rapid cycling of different view perspectives.

My point is not that this cannot "work"...in fact many simmers get pretty good at this. Good for them! But this is not how the real life pilot looks around in the cockpit during an engagement. Snap views are a learned skill...and a very difficult one at that. My thought is that the simmers who use snap views to great success are not so much good BFM pilots as they are good view managers. Their success comes from the fact that their opponents are less skilled in snap view management and as a result, lose sight or hit the ground.

No matter. After all is said and done, use whatever gives you the most fun! This ain't for real...not supposed to be!

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 09-18-2001).]

#44793 - 09/19/01 02:56 AM Re: It's All a Matter of Your Perspective?  
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Andy,

That last sentence is the best bit of advice I've seen on the forum for a while, should be posted in capitols on the Il-2 section.


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#44794 - 09/19/01 03:22 PM Re: It's All a Matter of Your Perspective?  
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The one problem I have with the external - player to enemy - view in IL2 is that the bandit is, most of the time, directly behind me and I can't see what he's doing. I'm looking at my belly and all of a sudden the bad guy is booming me from above. It would be better if it was always offset a little so you could see what he was doing, no?


"Let's get out of here before one of those things kills Guy."
#44795 - 09/19/01 04:13 PM Re: It's All a Matter of Your Perspective?  
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TDog

Yes...I agree. In Il-2, will the mouse move the perspective so that the bandit can be moved into view? Other sims have this same problem...a good, hard kick turn will often move the bandit far enough so that you can see him.

Other times, the bandit will be masked if he is on your lift vector, ie, you are maneuvering in his plane of motion. Of course, the whole point of split-plane maneuvering is to maneuver out of the bandit's plane of motion...sort of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of situation.

For me, the benefits of the external view outweigh the liabilities.

Andy

#44796 - 09/19/01 04:21 PM Re: It's All a Matter of Your Perspective?  
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Hi Andy,
The player to enemy view is not adjustable. It's locked pretty much directly though your lift vector when you're in-plane. [Linked Image] Out of plane manuevering helps a bit, but still leaves you guessing at what he's doing a lot of the time.


"Let's get out of here before one of those things kills Guy."
#44797 - 09/25/01 02:59 AM Re: It's All a Matter of Your Perspective?  

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Andy


I've also given the external view vs. internal view some thought. I use both, jumping very quickly from internal to external and then back to internal for the score. External for quick lift vector orientation and internal for the score. However, when the opponent(s) are literally cramming my airspace, I tend to stay pretty much in internal cockpit padlock because I found that I miss too many snap shot opportunities. Mig alley has a good external padlock view and after the score I go to external, padlocking like crazy all nearby bandits to regain my situational awareness. The external padlock view is an excellent tool " wherever offered ". But what's really needed in a Sim is an automatic horizon bandit external padlock. This would, in theory, when such key is pressed, be able to padlock all bandits in succesive order, within a certain circular area around the player's bird very much like a pilot scanning and pivoting his head around and up whilst looking for bandits. This could be used to great advantage by the player for getting a terrific situational awareness before and after the score. The speed of this external, succesive bandit padlock could be programmed to vary according to the setting chosen by the player. This, as far as I know, does not exist at the present moment. But if anybody is reading these posts, by all means, do take notice.


Any way....After several months of inactivity I decided to go to that hyper lobby on Sunday night for some online air combat on the IAF lobby. That all out war is a crazy thing. Everybody vs. everybody. This automatic padlock would have come in very handy...beleive you me! It seemed that everytime I went in for the score, some buzzard tried to take advantage of my temporary loss of situational awareness. I hate the racket of the sound of lead striking my airframe....Kind of sounds like somebody banging a tin bucket. But it was fun getting my score up even though I lawn darted myself whilst in cockpit padlock several times.


Later


Jalapeno Pepper


Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Andy Bush:
TDog

Yes...I agree. In Il-2, will the mouse move the perspective so that the bandit can be moved into view? Other sims have this same problem...a good, hard kick turn will often move the bandit far enough so that you can see him.

Other times, the bandit will be masked if he is on your lift vector, ie, you are maneuvering in his plane of motion. Of course, the whole point of split-plane maneuvering is to maneuver out of the bandit's plane of motion...sort of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of situation.

For me, the benefits of the external view outweigh the liabilities.

Andy
</font>


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