I was just beginning the descent into Washington Dulles airport.

We had started the charted arrival and I had been briefing my First Officer (co-pilot) on the gotcha's in the descent routing.

Suddenly, we heard another TWA flight say that he was requesting a return to St Louis. That's unusual, we thought...wonder what's going on...does he have some sort of problem or what?

While I was thinking this, out cockpit printer began chattering. Out came a message..."return to St Louis immediately!" Now, I really began to worry. What could be happening?

I asked ATC for a 180 degree turn back to the west...ATC then said, "Land ASAP". That really got the juices flowing...what in the #%&*$# is going on?

Just then, out printer started back up...."Land at Cincinnati, Ohio." No problem...it was only about 15 minutes flying time away.

Now we have things to do...get the flight attendants up to the cockpit and brief them on what we know (which wasn't much)...tell the passengers that we weren't going to DC after all...send a message to TWA that we were heading to Cincinnati...

By this time, we had heard ATC say that there was a "national emergency"...this really got me worried...what in the world is going on?

In a few minutes we were on our approach and we needed to put our attention on the landing. It was only after landing that the ground control folks gave us the first hint as to what had just happened.Needless to say, it was a very gloomy cockpit...and after we stopped at the gate, I briefed the passengers...more gloom.

We all went to the same hotel. Tonite, two days later, I brought everyone back to St Louis.

If anyone ever asks..."where were you when the towers were hit", I won't have any trouble remembering.

Andy

Jesus, Andy...must have been incredible. Very happy to hear you're alive and well, though!

Even though we knew you don't fly Boeings, and even though I didn't think those were your routes, and even though there are thousands of flights.....we were all still a little apprehensive until we heard you were OK.

Hope I didn't bother your wife too much when I called.....must have been pretty trying for her too.

Anyway, welcome back to terra firme.

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John Sponauer
Senior Editor
SimHQ.com
jsponauer@SimHQ.com

[This message has been edited by Spoons - SimHQ (edited 09-13-2001).]

Andy- it's a relief to hear you are safe & well.

A few questions that have been bugging me;

1). The CAP that has been run over US cities- is this effective or is it morale boosting window dressing? Covering all U.S. airspace sounded like a formidable task.

2). The villains airliner training- have you any thoughts on that? Could they have really used MS FS2000 or 2002 as an effective preparation?

3). Airliner security- how would you like your aircraft secured?

There's more on my mind too, but that's enough for one post I guess......

Cheers
Wilbur

Wilbur

Good questions! Here are some thoughts...

1. The CAP. Useful or just a morale boost? Probably a little of both. If one had been up on the day of the attack, it may not have made much difference. This idea of using an airliner as a weapon is something new...the process of getting permission to "shoot one down" prior to the attack would have taken quite a bit of time...the concept was just too unbelievable then...but is no longer

On the other hand...now that we know about these things...the CAP can play an important role in absolute last ditch defense of point targets such as the DC area or major cities.

2. Using a sim as a trainer? To a small extent, probably so. But the real issue here is not "flying the airplane" in the general sense...it's not difficult to aim a plane! Instead, the problem in the terrorist's planning would have been in finding the targets.

The 767/757 flight plan is punched into a cockpit computer before takeoff...the route is very specific. Once the terrorists had taken control of the plane, they needed to turn around and navigate to the target area. This would require a certain level of proficiency far more involved than just keeping the wings level.

Sad to say, but the beautiful flying conditions that day (unlimited visibility) was a big help. If the weather had been worse, I'm doubtful the attacks could have been completed.

Did the terrorists reprogram the flight computer...and use a flight sim to learn how to do this...I don't know. More likely, they may have gotten this training in their flight schools in Florida (or elsewhere).

3. Aircraft security? Could airliner cockpits be made more secure? Sure...but at what cost...in both monetary as well as practical terms? The problem isn't making the cockpit more secure...it's keeping the attackers off the plane in the first place...or as a backup, controlling them in the cabin. This can be done (as some airlines do with great success), but to do so on a scale as large as the US...again, we run into limits of practicality and cost.

Prior to this attack, many of us pilots used to carry multi-purpose tools that included a knife as well as a screwdriver, etc. I had a Swiss Army knife with tool attachments. No more. Nothing is allowed. When I flew back from Cincinnati, I was stopped going thru security in the terminal. I had gotten rid of my knife but had forgotten about a small pair of scissors in my shaving kit...I had to take them out and throw them away before going on to the gate.

Once I got to the plane, I secured my bags in the cockpit...right along side of the 15 inch crash axe that we have there. As a pilot,I had to get rid of the scissors that had a blade of about one inch, but am allowed access to a large and lethal axe? Go figure!

The real issue is not the plane. Think of a situation where you have a snake in your house. Do you put on a suit of armor to keep from getting bit...or do you kill the snake?

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 09-15-2001).]

It's good to hear from you, Andy. It's good to know you are well, and those who were put into your care.
There are so many questions and so many things in my mind that cry out for answers. But I know these things will come out in due time. For now I can only wipe my tears, and wait.

Joe

Andy......

I like the analogy about the armour!

Actually this aircraft security stuff reminds me of an issue that comes to light when flying on Aussie air force aircraft. As a reserve infantry grunt, I've had a few lifts on C-130's and Caribous. Whenever we took a trip, all the infantry people had the riot act read to them by some excitable RAAF type, re. our cooking equipment.

Grunts often carry small gas stoves, or stoves fueled by compressed fuel tablets. These apparently add to the fire risk, and burn on vigorously after a crash. So in Australia we get the bizarre sight of soldiers surrendering their stove, but being allowed on board with enough infantry pyrotechnics to fight WW3! As you say, go figure....

One young Lt. I knew was universally hated by his soldiers (he was an arrogrant little pratt....). He smuggled a cigarette lighter and stove on board a C-130 and then bragged to a few guys "hey aren't I clever"....

The boys dobbed him in.

Any thoughts of allowing aircraft pilots to depressurize the plane in an emergency? I would imagine if you were prepared for the depressurization you could throw the hijackers off for a moment or two. Some times I would think even the smallest action to confuse a hijacker could lead to subduing them.

I had more to add, but I'll refrain for now.

Glad you're safe Andy.

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Weasel 87FIS
"Cave Putorium!"

What a horrible scene it was last week.

Just a couple of comments on a couple of the questions posted above.

In regards to could have the terrorist used msfs 2000 for some training on these certain types of aircraft, i believe the answer is yes. I use "pilot in command 767" (a readily available add on for fs2000) at home before license renewals as it mirrors in extreme detail 767 systems including the FMC (flight management computer, the computer that holds among other things the routing for the flight) and automatics like LNAV & VNAV and was designed my the team that put it together to be as accurate as possible. A number of hours of playing around in this sim could give you what was required to navigate to NY from anywhere in the US or the planet for that matter.

As Andy has said unlimited vis would no doubt have greatly assisted these people and also the fact that NY is on the coast makes it that much easier to find.


As to what to do in the future, prevention is infintely better than the cure.

One major problem for future hijackers that I see and I invite all of your opinions on this. Hijackers control people with the threat of death, be it by gun, knife or bomb. If 200 odd people believe that if someone gains control of the aircraft other than the flight crew that they are as good as dead then mob mentality will come in to play and they will likely take matters into their own hands. No matter how many hijackers there may be 50, 100 200 people all with nothing to lose would be impossible to control.

So hijackers (in the traditional sense, using hostages and planes as leverage) in the future will have very quickly convince everyone that they do not intend kamikaze or be faced with a desperate group of people.


As to what actions and guidelines (if there are any) that our security advisors can come up with in the event of future hijacking such as cabin depressurising we will have to wait and see.


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I Love Aircraft Noise

Maybe I read the title of the thread wrong, but I took it as "here's where I was, where were you?"

I was in a little town called Westley, in CA, just off I-5. Had stopped, and gotten a motel the night before, as I didn't have to load in LA until later the next day.

Woke up that AM, and while drinking the first cup of coffee, and after watching the Weather Channel, turned to CNN.

Whoa! Live pictures of one of the WTC towers on fire. Speculation by the announcers that there has been a horrible accident involving an airplane crashing into one of the towers. Literally seconds later I see a computer simulation of an airliner crashing into that tower...wait a minute, this "simulated airliner" doesn't crash into the first tower, it hits the second one!

I immediately knew these were no "accidents"! And you all know the rest.

I stayed glued to the TV for the rest of that day-lost the load (got another one just as good), but I could not bring myself to think that a load of tires from LA to Indiana was more important than what I was seeing on TV.

Andy, I can't imagine the thoughts that must have been going through your mind!

I went back to work the next day, but I'm still not "back to normal", and won't be for a very long time. I doubt any of us will.

Where was I?

When it happened I was in an Army Reserve mess, having a few beers with my platoon after a nights training. The news came via someones mobile phone. We switched the TV on in time to see the second tower fall live (this was all at night time here in Australia).

The mood in the room was electric- lots of soldiers looking at each other and thinking "What now? Will this mean a mobilisation or what?"

I didn't stop watching when I got home- I think I was up till 1AM.