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#4475380 - 05/24/19 07:41 PM DCS: F-16C Viper  
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Last edited by Force10; 10/02/19 04:51 PM.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4475389 - 05/24/19 08:19 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ends-up-in-jail-over-buying-usaf-manuals

On May 17, 2019, Eagle Dynamics released a screenshot, seen at the top of this story, of the simulated cockpit the company has designed for the forthcoming F-16 module. In the initial early access release of the software, Eagle Dynamics says the update for DCS will include a fully recreated Block 50 Viper cockpit with "Color Multifunction Display (CMFD) symbology, Horizontal Situation Display (HSD) format, and Head-up Display (HUD) symbology" and "Digitally [sic] TACAN [Tactical Air Navigation System] and Electronic Horizontal Situation Indicator (EHSI)," according to a company news release from February 2019.

Last edited by SinCityJet; 05/24/19 08:20 PM.
#4475411 - 05/25/19 01:45 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Been in love with Vipers since I first saw one at an airshow as a kid.

Having a blast with BMS 4.34, and a DCS version will be a day 1 buy.

#4475441 - 05/25/19 02:27 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I didn't think that I would buy any more of ED high fidelity jets. I just don't want to spend the time learning them. I hardly fly my A-10C, but use the F-15 all the time because it isn't so complex. But, #%&*$#! I'm gonna want this. I'll have to bite the bullet and dive into the manual.
Some exciting stuff hapening over there. An F-8 Crusader. Another favorite. And it looks as though that F4U might be out soon. How can I not get that!?
They're gonna force me to spend some money. I hate that!

Last edited by Pooch; 05/25/19 02:27 PM.

"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

#4475525 - 05/26/19 02:55 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I never buy anything from them unless it's in a sale.
That would change however if they had aircraft with relevant campaigns plus a historical map to go with it.
Then I might be disposed to buy things as they come out.

#4475531 - 05/26/19 03:43 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Just about every DCS module I own, I bought on sale. As a matter of fact, I think that EVERY one I bought was a sale item. So I most likely will follow my pattern and wait. But I will get that Viper, eventually.


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

#4475577 - 05/27/19 05:31 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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There are several planes I would like to purchase, I-16, F4U, Migg19 and the Harrier to name a few, but since Ed has never finished the P47, the Me262 from the 1944 WWII kick starter debacle and they let VEAO rip me off for 40$ for the P40 and did nothing about it, I just can't spend any more money with them. The F16 & F14 would be included in that list to buy, but No Thanks, they have lost me as a customer.

S!Blade<><

#4475921 - 05/29/19 01:22 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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They follow the same pattern; Release a module then fix it for some time, then release another wishing that people forget the older one with bugs still remaining with it and then just rinse and repeat. Unfortunately that even seems to work.


Give a man fish and he gets food, give a man a fishing rod and he asks for another one.
#4475926 - 05/29/19 01:54 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: IceecI]  
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Originally Posted by IceecI
They follow the same pattern; Release a module then fix it for some time, then release another wishing that people forget the older one with bugs still remaining with it and then just rinse and repeat. Unfortunately that even seems to work.


Yep, SOP for them.


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4475937 - 05/29/19 03:07 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: IceecI]  
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Originally Posted by IceecI
They follow the same pattern; Release a module then fix it for some time, then release another wishing that people forget the older one with bugs still remaining with it and then just rinse and repeat. Unfortunately that even seems to work.


Yeah, I'm drawing my line in the sand on this one.
Way too many unfinished projects and hard broke core issues. That and their nerfed F-16 variant just doesnt appeal to me. Too many compromises. The F-15E either.

#4475961 - 05/29/19 04:28 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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They lost me at ". . .will set the standard for F-16 simulation" and "our 30 years of simulation experience". Seriously? You're going to pick a fight with Falcon BMS without a shred of a campaign engine? And I've been around for the majority of their 30 years and it's been unequivocally . . . disappointing.

#4475989 - 05/29/19 08:57 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Originally Posted by KraziKanuK
Originally Posted by IceecI
They follow the same pattern; Release a module then fix it for some time, then release another wishing that people forget the older one with bugs still remaining with it and then just rinse and repeat. Unfortunately that even seems to work.


Yep, SOP for them.


Which is why I'll wait 'til they finish the F/A 18. (holding breath)


Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


#4476014 - 05/29/19 11:48 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: 531 Ghost]  
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I hope you've got big lungs.......they haven't bothered to finish any of their other modules yet


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4476228 - 05/31/19 08:26 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
I hope you've got big lungs.......they haven't bothered to finish any of their other modules yet


Kind'o my point wink


Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


#4479415 - 06/22/19 07:53 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Does anyone remember the 90s... more flight sim companies and flight sims than you could shake a stick at? And then BOOM They died?

Anyone remember why?

It was because: 1) customers wanting something for nothing and 2) Incessant customer whining about bugs and/or imperfect code.

I wish you guys could understand it: Eagle Dynamics is doing us a YYUUUGE favor by providing us this sim, pay modules and all. Its amazing. Especially for those of us who remember the death of flight sims around 2000ish. No it doesnt have every this or that. The modules are incomplete in completion. Et cetera. But it's #%&*$# amazing for those of us who've ben around for 20+ years. This is the time we've been praying and/or hoping for.

We all need to show more gratitude than grouchiness because these guys could just pull the rug and go into other businesses that both appreciate their service and (probably) pay them better.

Jus' sayin'.


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#4479442 - 06/22/19 11:44 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: IamFritz]  
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Originally Posted by IamFritz
Does anyone remember the 90s... more flight sim companies and flight sims than you could shake a stick at? And then BOOM They died?

Anyone remember why?

It was because: 1) customers wanting something for nothing and 2) Incessant customer whining about bugs and/or imperfect code.


Yes, I remember why and I completely disagree with what you said above, namely as those being the reasons why flight sims "died".
I say that it was because:

1- The trend changed - Flight sims became less and less popular while other genres such as FPS shooters became increasingly more popular (taking a big/huge chunk of the market).

2- Together with the above, sims became less and less fun. For example I remember that F-15 Strike Eagle III (a F-15E sim) allowed co-op in the same aircraft (pilot and WSO) while the "sucessor" Jane's F-15 didn't. And then the F-15 sucessor - Jane's F/A-18 - didn't have for example SAR radar which all the two order sims had. And this extends to all other features such as campaign and missions. For example hardly no sims released in the late 1990's had compelling dynamic campaigns for instance. As sims progressed campaigns and their missions become less and less interesting and fun! Well you know, the keyword here FUN. Many around here (namely many DCS fans) seem to forget the meaning of that word.

3- Together with the above, sims became more and more complicated and in most cases unnecessarily so. This had the result of keeping "new blood" (new players) away from the genre.

Originally Posted by IamFritz

I wish you guys could understand it: Eagle Dynamics is doing us a YYUUUGE favor by providing us this sim, pay modules and all.

Jus' sayin'.


No, they are NOT! They are doing a disservice to the genre by releasing content which is perpetually unfinished. They are ripping of the customers! And since they are among the last in the genre they are not only keeping new potential players away from the genre but also keeping many/most of the players that want and do play sims away from the genre and above all and with the attitude of fan(actics) such as yourself keeping new potential sim developers away from the genre - for example why would someone risk starting a new company to develop new combat flight sims when all there seems to be in terms of potential customers are DCS fan(actics) such as yourself which only see DCS as the only viable combat flight sim?? rolleyes

Resuming:
- It's attitudes like yours that are killing the genre, PERIOD!

#4479443 - 06/22/19 11:49 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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100% disagree with Iamfritz bs_sign troll?
ricnunes- AMEN That. Omg i love f15III btw wacky

#4479451 - 06/22/19 01:20 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: IamFritz]  
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Originally Posted by IamFritz


I wish you guys could understand it: Eagle Dynamics is doing us a YYUUUGE favor by providing us this sim, pay modules and all. Its amazing. Especially for those of us who remember the death of flight sims around 2000ish. No it doesnt have every this or that. The modules are incomplete in completion. Et cetera. But it's #%&*$# amazing for those of us who've ben around for 20+ years. This is the time we've been praying and/or hoping for.

We all need to show more gratitude than grouchiness because these guys could just pull the rug and go into other businesses that both appreciate their service and (probably) pay them better.

Jus' sayin'.


Nonsense.

Do you propose that everyone buys ED's unfinished modules, bug-ridden patches and goes wax lyrical because they are apparently doing us a 'HUGE favour'? I've been around for 20+ years and it isn't amazing at all. It's supposed to be a combat simulator.....it's even in the title yet what we actually have is an excellent start-up button push trainer, a good screenshot generator but some very weak combat and a developer that will probably never realise anywhere near the potential that we all hoped for.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4479493 - 06/22/19 04:43 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: IamFritz]  
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Originally Posted by IamFritz
Does anyone remember the 90s... more flight sim companies and flight sims than you could shake a stick at? And then BOOM They died?


I remember the 90s.

Quote
It was because: 1) customers wanting something for nothing and 2) Incessant customer whining about bugs and/or imperfect code.


Not sure how either of those things effect profitability. Are you talking about piracy? Or dissatisfaction that led to fewer sales?

Quote
I wish you guys could understand it: Eagle Dynamics is doing us a YYUUUGE favor by providing us this sim


On one hand your optimism is refreshing. But on the other I see this sort of attitude as what allows ED to do what they do. I think it's naive

Quote
No it doesnt have every this or that. The modules are incomplete in completion. Et cetera. But it's #%&*$# amazing for those of us who've ben around for 20+ years. This is the time we've been praying and/or hoping for.


This stance that we should be happy we are getting anything at all is err, not widely held. Again, it enables ED to do what they do. I have analogies in mind, but I'll spare you. Don't care to change your mind, don't think you do either. I've been at this for 20+ years and I can assure you that what ED produces is NOT what I have been praying for. You seem to be saying "Sure, it's incomplete and missing stuff, but have you SEEN it?! OMG it looks so uhmazin'." Because in my view it's missing those elements that make for a great flight sim, the one I've been praying for. DCS isn't it. It could have been. But it's not.

Quote
We all need to show more gratitude.



Now you're just having a laugh. You've got the business-customer relationship backwards I think.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4479538 - 06/22/19 09:39 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz


Nonsense.

Do you propose that everyone buys ED's unfinished modules, bug-ridden patches and goes wax lyrical because they are apparently doing us a 'HUGE favour'? I've been around for 20+ years and it isn't amazing at all. It's supposed to be a combat simulator.....it's even in the title yet what we actually have is an excellent start-up button push trainer, a good screenshot generator but some very weak combat and a developer that will probably never realise anywhere near the potential that we all hoped for.


Bad missile flight dynamics are the biggest issue combat wise, but what else is missing? Not so good AI squadron controls? I would say inability to handle large scale missions but I haven't tried that in a long time and to be honest those don't represent realistic battles anyways.

#4479554 - 06/23/19 02:29 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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It all comes down to if you like to play combat flight sims there are currently only two choices. BMS and DCS.
That's all there is.

And I agree that DCS's business model/practices are crap. But that's all there is and I like playing combat flight sims.
I have the BMS F-16, and also the DCS A-10C, Mirage, F-86, F-18, and Tomcat.

All in all, it's pretty cool.

#4480377 - 06/28/19 01:26 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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to answer all those questions......no I won't be buying this hunk of junk for several years.

#4481827 - 07/06/19 09:52 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Nice finally the F 16! Preordered and will buy it for a friend when it comes to steam!


Those that forget the pasta are doomed to reheat it.
#4481832 - 07/06/19 10:39 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Schweppes]  
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Originally Posted by Schweppes
Nice finally the F 16! Preordered and will buy it for a friend when it comes to steam!


Yes, good to see the F-16 coming to DCS but I prefer the AH-1W or the Mi-24P to have been prioritised before the F-16 was announced.

cobra was announced years ago. still nothing.

#4481870 - 07/07/19 06:41 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Yes i agree with you about this, all those modules you mention is something of my interest and i would get, but would probably have been a bit better if they released either the Cobra or Hind (or both) before the F16!
I keep wanting new planes eventhough i have enough to keep me busy learning for years! Simce last year ive been flying mostly the Harrier and when the Tomcat came i divided most of my flying time between those 2.

But i welcome the F16 and i will find time to learn this too:)


Those that forget the pasta are doomed to reheat it.
#4484348 - 07/28/19 04:42 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Lol.. one thing is guaranteed when ED release a module - SimHQ dinosaurs will whine about it incessantly rather than look at the positive side. We get more choices. And that's exactly what they are - choices. Don't like it, don't buy it.

I for one am grateful that there's still a dev out there pumping out flight sims that can play in updated tech. DCS in VR is an experience. Sure it'd be perfect if they released completed modules but I can wait. This genre has taught me patience and if it never gets fixed, well, I'd rather fly something broken and experience it than not having it at all.

They're doing gamers a disservice? Step up and create a flight sim yourself or get EA to sponsor one.

#4484368 - 07/28/19 02:36 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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"And I agree that DCS's business model/practices are crap...."

Yeah, but when I'm in the F-86 and I'm trying to bag a MiG-15....or more likey trying not to get bagged by one....the last thing I'm thinking about is their buisiness practices.
The only reason I'm on the fence is that I just don't seem to want to learn these complex models, anymore. I never fly my A-10, anymore, for that reason. I don't want it to be another thing siting on my hard drive that I don't use. But, boy, I like the F-16.


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

#4484382 - 07/28/19 05:08 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Let's agree, one thing DCS do nice is trailers. smile



PRE-ORDER hahaha

Someone say: "DCS trailers really make me want to buy things I know I wont like".

#4484586 - 07/30/19 07:52 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: WynnTTr]  
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Originally Posted by WynnTTr
Lol.. one thing is guaranteed when ED release a module - SimHQ dinosaurs will whine about it incessantly rather than look at the positive side. We get more choices. And that's exactly what they are - choices. Don't like it, don't buy it.


I and others here don't actually "whine". We just post facts and evidence about ED's dishonest and fraudulent business model (Modules that are perpetually in Alpha state and never finished while more and more of these modules keep pumping up, etc, etc, etc...), full of perpetual bugs that are never fixed, etc, etc, etc...

It's not our fault that you don't like to hear the FACTS!

Originally Posted by WynnTTr

I for one am grateful that there's still a dev out there pumping out flight sims that can play in updated tech. DCS in VR is an experience. Sure it'd be perfect if they released completed modules but I can wait. This genre has taught me patience and if it never gets fixed, well, I'd rather fly something broken and experience it than not having it at all.


Yeah right.
Lets look at that beautiful DCS F-16 video:
- When I look at the ground targets being destroyed, all I can wonder is - There's no Air-to-Ground radar!
- When I look at the AMRAAM shots, all I can wonder is - AMRAAMs are a crap and barely work in BVR and only work "more or less" in WVR (and this is an AMRAAM, LOL!).
- When I look at the "Cluster explosions", all I can wonder is - which supercomputer will handle that?!

I wonder if you would defend so hard another combat flight sim made by another developer even if such sim only had half of the bugs/issues of DCS?! I guess not but then I guess that this is the true definition of being an ED/DCS fanboy/fanatic... rolleyes

Originally Posted by WynnTTr

They're doing gamers a disservice? Step up and create a flight sim yourself or get EA to sponsor one.


Yes, ED is doing gamers a disservice. But guess what? They are not the only ones! Fanboys/fanatics such as yourself are also doing gamers a disservice as well! "Congratulations"... rolleyes

And why would someone "step up and create a flight sim" when many of the remaining simmers such as yourself only seem to care about DCS?? How can someone (a potential combat flight sim developer) think it will have any chance at all to compete with a sim which is a major cluster f**k and at the same time the most vocal simmers defend it so staunchly and this again, despite being a major cluster f**k?? How can someone compete against such a "paradigm"??

I usually wonder and honestly think that the best thing that could happen with the combat flight sim genre would be for ED to go bankrupt/out of business since I strongly believe that it will only be after something like this happening that someone else will finally step up and create a flight sim!

#4484716 - 08/01/19 03:36 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Wynn's post seemed more middle-of-the-road, than fanatic. At least that's how I read it

I will eventually purchase the falcon. Not as a fanatic, or a fanboy, but as a military aircraft enthusiast





#4484960 - 08/03/19 12:19 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I think it's safe to say most of us prefer to include some A/A action in our sorties. ED still hasn't fixed the flawed code that makes a 30 mile missile (IRL) into a maybe it'll hit at 10 miles AMRAAM. It's been 10 years since ED actually admitted their code is fuxored. Yet still no fix on one of the very most important things we like to do in a combat flight sim. That being said, if they aren't fixing something that's relatively important, do you really think they're gonna finish that module. I mean, since they've already not finished several................

#4485004 - 08/03/19 03:39 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: LOF_Rugg]  
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Originally Posted by LOF_Rugg
I think it's safe to say most of us prefer to include some A/A action in our sorties. ED still hasn't fixed the flawed code that makes a 30 mile missile (IRL) into a maybe it'll hit at 10 miles AMRAAM. It's been 10 years since ED actually admitted their code is fuxored. Yet still no fix on one of the very most important things we like to do in a combat flight sim. That being said, if they aren't fixing something that's relatively important, do you really think they're gonna finish that module. I mean, since they've already not finished several................


....and especially when there is easy money to be made churning out mission pack after mission pack


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#4485023 - 08/03/19 07:09 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: LOF_Rugg]  
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Originally Posted by LOF_Rugg
I think it's safe to say most of us prefer to include some A/A action in our sorties. ED still hasn't fixed the flawed code that makes a 30 mile missile (IRL) into a maybe it'll hit at 10 miles AMRAAM. It's been 10 years since ED actually admitted their code is fuxored. Yet still no fix on one of the very most important things we like to do in a combat flight sim. That being said, if they aren't fixing something that's relatively important, do you really think they're gonna finish that module. I mean, since they've already not finished several................


They're apparently working on it with the AIM-7 being the first. No idea how far that has progressed.

The only insight about "real world" performance I've heard is that AIM-120 (and other similar missiles) have a notably lower PK than what flight simmers seem to expect. And that flight simmers in DCS and Falcon like to put on unrealistic pay loads that wouldn't be possible in real life or are possible but would never been done due to the severe damage they cause to the aircraft. EX) More than AGM-65s per wing on an F-16.

#4485033 - 08/03/19 08:34 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I'll likely get it but not until closer to the drop dead date on my bonus bucks; which expire in January since I bought the Tomcat back in January of this year right before it went off pre-purchase....but I have to get some rudder pedals as well before I buy anymore modules of anything.


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#4485051 - 08/04/19 12:04 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I'm still waiting for AG radar before I buy the Hornet...


mdwa
#4485678 - 08/09/19 11:58 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m

The only insight about "real world" performance I've heard is that AIM-120 (and other similar missiles) have a notably lower PK than what flight simmers seem to expect.


And the insight about "real world" performance of missiles that I've heard, namely on the AMRAAM is that its Pk is far, far bigger/higher in real life compared to the DCS... rolleyes

#4485758 - 08/10/19 07:29 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted by ricnunes
Originally Posted by Flogger23m

The only insight about "real world" performance I've heard is that AIM-120 (and other similar missiles) have a notably lower PK than what flight simmers seem to expect.


And the insight about "real world" performance of missiles that I've heard, namely on the AMRAAM is that its Pk is far, far bigger/higher in real life compared to the DCS... rolleyes


AIM-120 has around a 10 mile range against fighters in DCS so I think that has a lot to do with it. It looses energy so quickly.

#4485785 - 08/10/19 11:20 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m

AIM-120 has around a 10 mile range against fighters in DCS so I think that has a lot to do with it. It looses energy so quickly.


Yes, that's indeed a fact but it's not the only issue regarding the AMRAAM (and perhaps even other air-to-air missiles in DCS).
As an another example, I perfectly remember a situation that happened to me something like a year or two ago while flying with the F-15C in a mission where I decided to shoot at an enemy Mig-29 with an AMRAAM. In this case in particular I decided to watch the missile's flight (even because that Mig was the only enemy aircraft in the vicinity) and what happened next puzzled me even further:
- The missile in this case initially flew in an apparent correct flight profile towards the enemy Mig-29. As the missile got closer to the Mig with the Mig flying a bit below the Missile then the missile flew directly and exactly towards the point where it would intercept/hit the Mig (lead pursuit, just as as expected) then I thought to myself - This Mig is toasted! - but then as the missile was going to impact/destroy the Mig-29 then it happened the weirdest and stupidest thing that I ever saw in any Combat Flight Simulator - Instead of just continuing to fly straight (which would lead to an impact/kill) the missile FLIPPED something like 45 degrees in an upper and leftward position from its current flight path and thus completely avoided the enemy aircraft!! It's even more stupid if we think that the missile at that point shouldn't have that much energy but it flew upwards just like if it was launched at that time! duh

#4487791 - 08/29/19 02:48 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: IamFritz]  
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Expectations in the late 90's and early 2000's were just too high to reach with the available tech at the time. Development took way longer than your average FPS game and the ROI was minimal for such a niche hyper-critical customer base. It really is too bad, as flight sims were just really starting to mature.

Now we have the tech. We just don't have the big companies willing to invest in the products we love.

I'd be happy if someone ported or reconstructed DID's EF2000 in DCS.


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#4487927 - 08/30/19 10:44 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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There was an F16 simulation where the squadron was based in Turkey. If ED ported that f-16 aircraft, I'd consider buying it. Can't remember what it was called but it was back in the XTree gold days.

#4487961 - 08/30/19 03:09 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Punkture]  
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Originally Posted by Punkture

I'd be happy if someone ported or reconstructed DID's EF2000 in DCS.


I fully agree that a remake of the DID's EF2000 in a new engine would be awesome, indeed!

However I don't think that DCS would be the proper engine for that. If I remember it correctly, EF2000 modeled a very extensive air war with several flights of enemy and allied aircraft flying around accomplishing their objectives and fighting with and against each other and on top of that you had naval fleets (there was at least a quite big Russian fleet with a Carrier and a considerable number of escort ships) and plus of course, the ground units. Such a high number of units/assets would bring DCS to its knees even if such setting was being run on a NASA supercomputer.

#4488015 - 08/30/19 10:19 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted by ricnunes
Originally Posted by Flogger23m

AIM-120 has around a 10 mile range against fighters in DCS so I think that has a lot to do with it. It looses energy so quickly.


Yes, that's indeed a fact but it's not the only issue regarding the AMRAAM (and perhaps even other air-to-air missiles in DCS).
As an another example, I perfectly remember a situation that happened to me something like a year or two ago while flying with the F-15C in a mission where I decided to shoot at an enemy Mig-29 with an AMRAAM. In this case in particular I decided to watch the missile's flight (even because that Mig was the only enemy aircraft in the vicinity) and what happened next puzzled me even further:
- The missile in this case initially flew in an apparent correct flight profile towards the enemy Mig-29. As the missile got closer to the Mig with the Mig flying a bit below the Missile then the missile flew directly and exactly towards the point where it would intercept/hit the Mig (lead pursuit, just as as expected) then I thought to myself - This Mig is toasted! - but then as the missile was going to impact/destroy the Mig-29 then it happened the weirdest and stupidest thing that I ever saw in any Combat Flight Simulator - Instead of just continuing to fly straight (which would lead to an impact/kill) the missile FLIPPED something like 45 degrees in an upper and leftward position from its current flight path and thus completely avoided the enemy aircraft!! It's even more stupid if we think that the missile at that point shouldn't have that much energy but it flew upwards just like if it was launched at that time! duh


I know I have said it before and I will say it again the A2A missiles in DCS are terrible. I just do not get how with the available data on the internet they cant get it right. Its a modern sim of air combat....at least get the bloody #%&*$# A2A missiles right. Off my missile soap box now.


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#4488019 - 08/30/19 11:13 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: mdwa]  
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Originally Posted by mdwa
I'm still waiting for AG radar before I buy the Hornet...


What's the latest on AG radar? I don't visit their forums message boards anymore but aware this has been bubbling for years


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4488107 - 09/01/19 04:28 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: usafmtl40]  
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Originally Posted by usafmtl40
Originally Posted by ricnunes
Originally Posted by Flogger23m

AIM-120 has around a 10 mile range against fighters in DCS so I think that has a lot to do with it. It looses energy so quickly.


Yes, that's indeed a fact but it's not the only issue regarding the AMRAAM (and perhaps even other air-to-air missiles in DCS).
As an another example, I perfectly remember a situation that happened to me something like a year or two ago while flying with the F-15C in a mission where I decided to shoot at an enemy Mig-29 with an AMRAAM. In this case in particular I decided to watch the missile's flight (even because that Mig was the only enemy aircraft in the vicinity) and what happened next puzzled me even further:
- The missile in this case initially flew in an apparent correct flight profile towards the enemy Mig-29. As the missile got closer to the Mig with the Mig flying a bit below the Missile then the missile flew directly and exactly towards the point where it would intercept/hit the Mig (lead pursuit, just as as expected) then I thought to myself - This Mig is toasted! - but then as the missile was going to impact/destroy the Mig-29 then it happened the weirdest and stupidest thing that I ever saw in any Combat Flight Simulator - Instead of just continuing to fly straight (which would lead to an impact/kill) the missile FLIPPED something like 45 degrees in an upper and leftward position from its current flight path and thus completely avoided the enemy aircraft!! It's even more stupid if we think that the missile at that point shouldn't have that much energy but it flew upwards just like if it was launched at that time! duh


I know I have said it before and I will say it again the A2A missiles in DCS are terrible. I just do not get how with the available data on the internet they cant get it right. Its a modern sim of air combat....at least get the bloody #%&*$# A2A missiles right. Off my missile soap box now.


Hi Dave, long time no see lol. Hope all is well.

Yes the missles as well as a host of other things are borked, but whadya gonna do. They seem to want the same things we do, they're just not in any hurry to get any of it done.

#4488108 - 09/01/19 04:29 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
Originally Posted by mdwa
I'm still waiting for AG radar before I buy the Hornet...


What's the latest on AG radar? I don't visit their forums message boards anymore but aware this has been bubbling for years

Best quess is 2 more years.

#4488163 - 09/01/19 06:21 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Fracture]  
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Hi Dave, long time no see lol. Hope all is well.

Yes the missles as well as a host of other things are borked, but whadya gonna do. They seem to want the same things we do, they're just not in any hurry to get any of it done.


Hey man how the hell are you? I’m back simming again after a serious long break.


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#4488394 - 09/04/19 12:13 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: usafmtl40]  
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Originally Posted by usafmtl40
I’m back simming again after a serious long break.


good to hear. hopefully you will have noticed a few changes in DCS after the long break....

feel free to make public those major changes you see after the hiatus.

#4488420 - 09/04/19 05:55 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield
Originally Posted by usafmtl40
I’m back simming again after a serious long break.


good to hear. hopefully you will have noticed a few changes in DCS after the long break....

feel free to make public those major changes you see after the hiatus.



Well the missiles still suck. The mission editor is top notch. The F-14 is a blast. I love the Persian Gulf terrain. I'm looking forward to the Viper, however shouldn't they finish the other modules first? I think I covered it all.


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#4490296 - 09/23/19 03:11 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: ricnunes]  
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I'm sure you're correct. However, one can still dream.


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#4490401 - 09/24/19 05:21 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: usafmtl40]  
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Originally Posted by usafmtl40
looking forward to the Viper, however shouldn't they finish the other modules first?

Seems as if that is very far from their business model since they just moved a bunch of devs from 18 to "secure" the 16 early access date.
Major mayhem at hoggit even driving Nick out of the woods to make answers/statements and now they (ED) forced bigNewy to register at hoggit trying to execute damage control (no, not if you ask them but that's what it bloody is)

I do think the 16 didn't trigger many to let go of their money and that's why they made this massive effort to the hoggit community (that post they responded to, called "Wall of text" smile is actually very well written. You may read it here if you have not already done so: https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/d7kp1g/wall_of_text_eagle_dynamics_early_access_problem/ )

To me, ED is using early access to figure out how much dev time they should put into a specific module not risking to add too many features if very few buys it as I do not believe there's a rush of customers when the module is released 5 years later.
I do suspect this also applies to HB since the Viggen activity died mid-range (and soon after that 2018 was announced to be the year of content, haha yeah right - will be interesting to see the F-14 customer base when the same #%&*$# happens to them)


Edit: Anyone still considering putting dollars to the 16 should be fully aware that they will receive the same treatment as the current 18 early access customers just did when the next EA module shows up in one or two years from now (and no, you will still not have a complete 16 by then)

Last edited by theOden; 09/24/19 05:25 AM.
#4490469 - 09/24/19 11:12 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Very diplomatic response by nick. Thank you for sharing then link Oden

#4490502 - 09/25/19 09:57 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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And another charm offensive by ED:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/d8vjn9/for_those_interested_or_concerned/?sort=old

My take is the F-16 isn't getting many pre-purchases at all and ED is in panic mode.

Yeah Winfield, he did respond in good manner but being old and bitter like me it falls all flat as a PR stunt (unlike to so many others at reddit screaming of joy getting attention from top-brass and in my world, pretty darn naive reactions).
My DCS wallet remains closed until I see results.

#4490508 - 09/25/19 11:37 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: theOden]  
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thank you for the hoggit links - interesting read, I registered there once a few years ago but completely forgot about it.

I should change my username to out_of_touch_ about_DCS_in_general biggrin

Originally Posted by theOden


who is nineline? Norm, I remember someone with that name from the early days of Lock On, is he the same ?

did not know that Nick Grey co-founded it, reading his post called my attention to EA, did not even imagine EA had become such an issue and that F/A-18 was not finished yet, seems that it is not.

with 33k members it seems hoggit has become an alternative to more traditional forums like ours, it is an interesting trend although I for obvious reasons prefer forums hosted by websites.

it must be tough to co-ordinate their message with such a fractured community, and hoggit is an area where it is a free for all. this nineline is at least doing something about it.

#4490509 - 09/25/19 11:39 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Does a leopard change its spots?

Has hell frozen over?


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4490510 - 09/25/19 11:47 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I commented on Nine Lines post.....seriously, does he want to be friends with the people he banned?

It's absolutely laughable what has happened at hoggit in the last 24 hours. This F16 has serious flaws if even Nine Line has come out trying to convince people of the changes within ED.

And how many people on Norms post have bought into that BS.

**Edit: I take these words back, never thought i'd see the day I would regret a post like this.

Last edited by Winfield; 10/01/19 10:34 AM.
#4490511 - 09/25/19 11:49 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Tom, nineline is the new handle of SiThSpAwN since he made it community manager.

True, reddit subs seem popular but I do prefer SimHQ style forums since I find these much better to navigate and tat reddit style for up-/downvoting posts seems to be out of hand - well, I do find the red blocked ones more interesting to open and read so maybe there is some use after all smile

I'm pretty new to reading hoggit/reddit but man, if we are known to "hate" on ED/DCS I'm not sure what to call hoggit (and their insanity central floggit).

But isn't it telling, now that ED needs to figure out why something is wrong they need to go read on other places than their own forums.

#4490512 - 09/25/19 12:04 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden
Tom, nineline is the new handle of SiThSpAwN since he made it community manager.

True, reddit subs seem popular but I do prefer SimHQ style forums since I find these much better to navigate and tat reddit style for up-/downvoting posts seems to be out of hand - well, I do find the red blocked ones more interesting to open and read so maybe there is some use after all smile

I'm pretty new to reading hoggit/reddit but man, if we are known to "hate" on ED/DCS I'm not sure what to call hoggit (and their insanity central floggit).

But isn't it telling, now that ED needs to figure out why something is wrong they need to go read on other places than their own forums.


SiThSpAwN also came after my time, don't know him.

I sure prefer SimHQ (and LOF biggrin ) to it, too much work to find posts, you must be right about it being negative otherwise those posts by TFC/DCS would have been unnecessary.

It would not make much sense to me to comment on, knowing scarcely anything about DCS - but when you try to release payware when there is freeware like F4, the bar is set pretty high.

#4490534 - 09/25/19 02:54 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Way over in Perth, Western Aus...
found this interesting older article:
https://www.SimHQ.com/_air/air_100b.html


mdwa
#4490540 - 09/25/19 03:16 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Carl Norman ! that is the name I was trying to remember smile

#4490696 - 09/27/19 11:55 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Originally Posted by theOden
And another charm offensive by ED:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/d8vjn9/for_those_interested_or_concerned/?sort=old

My take is the F-16 isn't getting many pre-purchases at all and ED is in panic mode.



NineLine lifted my ban at ED.....seriously.

I think that as more aircraft are released it will attract many new people to the sim.
The release of the F-16 will bring a wave of new flight simmers in the form of those faithful to BMS.

I don't believe there is a lack in sales leading up to the imminent release of the F-16. I believe it has more to do with keeping ED forums as the go to place for those new to the sim. Comments from members who have been banned or have had issues with moderation of ED's forums would likely prevent new members registering. Hence NineLine heading to reddit to face the music so to speak. I must say, it takes a brave community manager to do what NineLine did over at reddit.

It has been said over at reddit that it is a PR stunt. Any 'free' PR is good for business, all it cost was NineLines time and that speaks volumes especially for the vendetta I have had with ED's moderation team over the years.

The F-16 will sell no matter what state it is in or however long it takes to finish. How many people own the f-5 and never fly it, or the L-39 and can't remember the last time they flew it. I'm in that boat. The F-16 will have a comparison being BMS, no aircraft in the ED lineup has a great deal of competition in a dedicated military sim. Its a bit hard to dogfight Cessna aircraft in FSX, and P3D I don't think comes close to the aircraft level of detail in DCS.

What DCS does need is a Mig-29 high fidelity level aircraft or su-33. The US are getting their aircraft released but with little competition from the Russian side. No one wants FC3 level aircraft these days, even those new to the sim.

The Hind will be the next aircraft I invest in, before the F-16.

#4490715 - 09/27/19 04:16 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 9,062
KraziKanuK Online content
Hotshot
KraziKanuK  Online Content
Hotshot

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Still have the big boot. That is can't post tho warning is 70%.

Last edited by KraziKanuK; 09/27/19 04:28 PM.

There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4490750 - 09/28/19 07:23 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Winfield Offline
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I hit NineLine up on reddit. If I can be unbanned surely it's worth contacting Norm for consideration mate

#4490824 - 09/29/19 04:54 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I have a ban that will never be lifted. Matt Wagner had one of his tantrums cuz I told the truth about disparaging remarks he said about the community. On a personal phone call I had with him.

#4490847 - 09/29/19 07:15 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss


with 33k members it seems hoggit has become an alternative to more traditional forums like ours, it is an interesting trend although I for obvious reasons prefer forums hosted by websites.



Sadly, traditional forums are dying. Reddit and other types of social media have eaten away at forums. I can't think of any new forums that are doing well. The forums that still see a lot of traffic got started over a decade ago. Most games don't even have forums any more and many developers have been closing forums and opening official reddits or use Twitter to dish out info. I think this approach is entirely inferior and the discussion and community quality is nowhere near as good as a proper forum.

But the younger generation has little to no exposure to forums so as time goes they will fade further. Which is disappointing as I see it as regressive.

#4490851 - 09/29/19 08:12 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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OH
Have I mentioned that I wish they would fix A2A missiles?


Digital Storm Lumos
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#4490852 - 09/29/19 08:32 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Tom_Weiss Offline
>>> P3Dv4+Il-2 = !!!
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss


with 33k members it seems hoggit has become an alternative to more traditional forums like ours, it is an interesting trend although I for obvious reasons prefer forums hosted by websites.



Sadly, traditional forums are dying. Reddit and other types of social media have eaten away at forums. I can't think of any new forums that are doing well. The forums that still see a lot of traffic got started over a decade ago. Most games don't even have forums any more and many developers have been closing forums and opening official reddits or use Twitter to dish out info. I think this approach is entirely inferior and the discussion and community quality is nowhere near as good as a proper forum.

But the younger generation has little to no exposure to forums so as time goes they will fade further. Which is disappointing as I see it as regressive.


I agree - it is a bad trend.

#4490873 - 09/30/19 07:21 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: usafmtl40]  
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Originally Posted by usafmtl40
Have I mentioned that I wish they would fix A2A missiles?


it is being worked on. I believe that is mentioned by Nick in the link posted by Oden

#4490891 - 09/30/19 01:26 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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"Being worked on" is cold comfort indeed - ED has been "working on" the AIM-120 for at least 5 years now nope

#4490931 - 09/30/19 07:52 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Winfield]  
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NineLine Offline
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Originally Posted by Winfield
Originally Posted by usafmtl40
Have I mentioned that I wish they would fix A2A missiles?


it is being worked on. I believe that is mentioned by Nick in the link posted by Oden


I asked Chizh recently about this for the AIM-120s and his response was this:

"We have in plan the new aerodynamic with new INS and seeker that will be modeled much more detailed. But it is plan for next year."

I believe right now they are working on Ballistic Missiles FM.

#4490937 - 09/30/19 09:26 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Viper mini-update:

Hey everyone,

To get you prepared for the release of our F-16C sometime in early autumn 2019, we are making available an early, work-in-progress draft of it’s Early Access Guide. This is being prepared by “Bunyap” and he’s doing a wonderful job (he is also creating the interactive training missions)!
As we push to release, he will be further updating it and continue to update it during the development of our Viper. Please note that if you don’t see an item in the guide that you expect at release, it mostly likely because the item is still in work and too early to write it up for the guide.

You can find it here:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/downloads/documentation/viper_early_access_guide_en/

We hope you enjoy it!

Thanks,
Wags

#4490940 - 09/30/19 10:32 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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usafmtl40 Offline
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Originally Posted by SiThSpAwN
Originally Posted by Winfield
Originally Posted by usafmtl40
Have I mentioned that I wish they would fix A2A missiles?


it is being worked on. I believe that is mentioned by Nick in the link posted by Oden


I asked Chizh recently about this for the AIM-120s and his response was this:

"We have in plan the new aerodynamic with new INS and seeker that will be modeled much more detailed. But it is plan for next year."

I believe right now they are working on Ballistic Missiles FM.


Bad ass! Thank you for the info....


Digital Storm Lumos
Processor: AMD Ryzen Threadripper 1900X (8-Core) (Boost Up to 4.0 GHz)
System Memory: 32GB DDR4 3000MHz G.SKILL TridentZ (RGB Light Bar)
Storage Set 1: 1x SSD M.2 (250GB Samsung 970 EVO) (NVM Express)
Storage Set 2: 1x SSD M.2 (1TB Samsung 970 EVO) (NVM Express)
Storage Set 3: 1x SSD (500GB Samsung 860 EVO)
Graphics Card(s): 1x GeForce RTX 2080 Ti 11GB
Extreme Cooling: H20: Stage 2: Digital Storm Vortex 240mm Liquid CPU Cooler
#4490941 - 09/30/19 10:44 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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NineLine Offline
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And a new vid.

Last edited by SiThSpAwN; 10/01/19 01:15 AM.
#4490953 - 10/01/19 01:14 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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NineLine Offline
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And another...


#4490960 - 10/01/19 02:01 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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rollnloop. Offline
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Thank you for posting these.

It's pretty nice to have someone "in the know" around here.

My wallet is currently closed, I wouldn't bother even try to express it at ED forums, but here are a few hints at how to reopen it, hope it may help:

1/F/A 18 needs a ground radar and a working air to air TWS mode. I pre ordered the F/A18 despite my history with ED (customer since Flanker 2.5), but took an oath not to buy anything any more until its state of completion is satisfying.

2/current level of AI comms is not satisfying, AWACS cannot guide an intercept at all, does not manage landing traffic, is very poor at managing take-off traffic, AI wingmen can't say their fuel level any more precisely than "bingo", use afterburner regardless of mission fuel requirements, are very poor at comunicating their actions regarding player or ennemies.

3/very poor 3D models remaining in their early 2000s quality. Just browse the aircaft and you'll see the shocking difference between the sold aircraft modules and those neglected models. I don't ask that they are 100% on par, but on 75% quality at minnimum, while I currently rate at 10 to 20%.

4/very old bugs game breaking never fixed, like the GBU24 that does not guide, the direct impact necessary even to kill a truck with a 1000Lbs bomb, for example. Net code still bug ridden, my RIO cannot communicate with awacs most of the time, host see refueling aircraft with basket extended when clients don't (and game considers it retracted for refuelling ops), for example. I don't even report bugs officially since I rate ED's will too low to fix bugs.

5/optimization. I cannot play on persian gulf with any less than 32Go of RAM. I have hundreds of games, some old some pretty recent, every one of them offers a good gaming experience with 8Gb, very few benefit of 16Go, and ZERO need more. I bought 24Go in addition to my satisfying 8Go ONLY for DCS persian gulf map, this is unacceptable for most people, and I can't recommand the game to anyone but the most hardcore fan for this very reason. The guys I lfy with (small party of 6 to 10) all had the same experience.

6/pricing of modules. I have no trouble myself investing in a 70$ module, thanks to a well paying job, but I can't help feeling this is very overpriced comparing to other sims, and again it is very hard to recommend the game to new players with such a price. New aircraft modules should not be more than 40$, maps should be free in order to not fracture the online community (but I guess up to 10$ could be viable), and sales at 50 up to 75% should occur every year, starting two years after said module has been on sale at full price, be it preorder or not. If the company can't do prices like this I'm afraid its consumer base will dry sooner or later. There should be more maps pretty soon to satisfy the need for novelty, I may add. Currently there are only two military sims producers I can think of, so the competition is not too harsh, however bad management could lead to both die. 1C was smart enough to ask 777 to manage their product to something viable only a on the edge of collapsing, ED should very soon think of it before it's too late, current seduction operation may prove unsufficient.

Anyway, thanks for venturing again into hostile skies, and good luck to ED, wish you success, just not with my money at the moment.

#4490974 - 10/01/19 03:57 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: rollnloop.]  
Joined: Jul 2011
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NineLine Offline
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You bet, want to try and see if I cant make it work over here this time, so we can give it a shot.

So let me take a swing at your questions.

1) Our big boss Nick Grey commented on the ground radar over at hoggit, he said this "TWS is being worked on. AGR is not being worked on at the moment as this function is rarely used operationally IRL as it lights up the ac to SAM threat. It is internally considered secondary to gameplay but I confirm that it will be done and is in the pipeline.". So right now TWS is a higher priority than A2G radar, but both are coming. It has affected development on the Viper as well, as far as gameplay vs development, its why you could very well see a working TGP on the release of Early Access.

2) Duly noted. I know after carrier comms is done (hope you have seen the vid on that) ATC comms and such is planned, even looking at separate updates for era-specific comms, obviously as important as it is a big task.

3) AI model updates are currently ongoing, the goal is to get them close to equal that of player aircraft, but such detail takes time, this is shared with models for new modules, updating already released modules like the A-10C and the Black Shark, so its something being done, but its a slow go, so yes, there are some pretty old tired looking models, but it is planned to get them all updated. Not fast enough for everyone, but in process.

4) We are switching to a new bug tracking system, this is making us look at some older bugs, as well as better tracking and managing of new ones. GBU24, I will need to check. Ground vehicle concerns should be addressed with the new damage model, once it's added for WWII, it will move to all aspects of the sim, the ground units need it badly. Cant comment on RIO issues, as I am assuming you mean the F-14, refuelling is supposed to get a revamp, but honestly, I am not sure where that is right now, I will check. I suggest you reconsider the bug reporting, we have been working very hard, especially on user-reported bugs to acknowledged and track them. I know it can be super frustrating though, so I am not gonna try and convince you otherwise. If you have made a report and you want me to look at it, I never mind a PM or hit me on discord, or whatever.

5) while I won't lie and say I wouldn't recommend anything short of 32 to anyone, I know many people playing with 16 and having a good time, 8 is just too little now. Video Ram is also important. With object counts, on the maps themselves as well as mission added units, then them all doing something, through in complex FMs, etc. There is a lot going on. Optimization is always going on, but also, the more people want, the more going on, the more demand for systems, look at different settings like draw distances and preload settings to help here too. As I said, I know many with 16 that say they have no issues at all with PG and other maps.

6) Pricing is always based on the costs to produce the modules, the Hornet and the Viper being a huge manpower effort to bring together. Other modules can be less, FC3 even less. As for sales, we do quite a number of sales over the year. Maps are quite a lot of work as well, as such it wouldn't be realistic for ED to give them away, maybe as the number of maps climbs, it would be an idea to look how this type of DLC is managed and made available, but right now this way of selling them is the best way for the business, with the core game free, and all updates and such to that free, DLC is the only way to keep the lights on. Its always going to be a balance of free content vs DLC, we do our best for the company and making sure it's affordable for everyone.

I hope that answers some of your concerns, I am sure not all of them in the way you would prefer, but I am also passing along concerns to the team from the community, monthly actually. So I dont mind passing along these, and feel free to ask me to expand on anything here, mass question answering limits my answer length, so maybe you want to hear more.


Thanks!
NineLine

Originally Posted by rollnloop.
Thank you for posting these.

It's pretty nice to have someone "in the know" around here.

My wallet is currently closed, I wouldn't bother even try to express it at ED forums, but here are a few hints at how to reopen it, hope it may help:

1/F/A 18 needs a ground radar and a working air to air TWS mode. I pre ordered the F/A18 despite my history with ED (customer since Flanker 2.5), but took an oath not to buy anything any more until its state of completion is satisfying.

2/current level of AI comms is not satisfying, AWACS cannot guide an intercept at all, does not manage landing traffic, is very poor at managing take-off traffic, AI wingmen can't say their fuel level any more precisely than "bingo", use afterburner regardless of mission fuel requirements, are very poor at comunicating their actions regarding player or ennemies.

3/very poor 3D models remaining in their early 2000s quality. Just browse the aircaft and you'll see the shocking difference between the sold aircraft modules and those neglected models. I don't ask that they are 100% on par, but on 75% quality at minnimum, while I currently rate at 10 to 20%.

4/very old bugs game breaking never fixed, like the GBU24 that does not guide, the direct impact necessary even to kill a truck with a 1000Lbs bomb, for example. Net code still bug ridden, my RIO cannot communicate with awacs most of the time, host see refueling aircraft with basket extended when clients don't (and game considers it retracted for refuelling ops), for example. I don't even report bugs officially since I rate ED's will too low to fix bugs.

5/optimization. I cannot play on persian gulf with any less than 32Go of RAM. I have hundreds of games, some old some pretty recent, every one of them offers a good gaming experience with 8Gb, very few benefit of 16Go, and ZERO need more. I bought 24Go in addition to my satisfying 8Go ONLY for DCS persian gulf map, this is unacceptable for most people, and I can't recommand the game to anyone but the most hardcore fan for this very reason. The guys I lfy with (small party of 6 to 10) all had the same experience.

6/pricing of modules. I have no trouble myself investing in a 70$ module, thanks to a well paying job, but I can't help feeling this is very overpriced comparing to other sims, and again it is very hard to recommend the game to new players with such a price. New aircraft modules should not be more than 40$, maps should be free in order to not fracture the online community (but I guess up to 10$ could be viable), and sales at 50 up to 75% should occur every year, starting two years after said module has been on sale at full price, be it preorder or not. If the company can't do prices like this I'm afraid its consumer base will dry sooner or later. There should be more maps pretty soon to satisfy the need for novelty, I may add. Currently there are only two military sims producers I can think of, so the competition is not too harsh, however bad management could lead to both die. 1C was smart enough to ask 777 to manage their product to something viable only a on the edge of collapsing, ED should very soon think of it before it's too late, current seduction operation may prove unsufficient.

Anyway, thanks for venturing again into hostile skies, and good luck to ED, wish you success, just not with my money at the moment.

#4490976 - 10/01/19 04:34 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Can you ask Nick if he thinks that AA radar isn't seen by SAM systems?
If he do think it does, ask him if all Hornets fly blind to hide from SAM umbrella.

#4490982 - 10/01/19 05:34 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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rollnloop. Offline
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Thanks for taking the time for this detailed answer.

As theOden points out, any reason to postpone ground radar will be hard to get accepted. Obviously using radar exposes one to any detection system, but it's too much of an asset in many a situation (especially against moving ground targets, to this very player, in falcon BMS) to be postponed any longer. Postponing it for 20 years makes consumer thinks ED is incompetent in simulating air to ground radar, and it's quite bad for business.

I'm quite satisfied with the other answers, but I'll open again my wallet based on what's in the game, not promises, as you may have guessed already.

I'll add that caucasus plays OK with 16Go, even with 8 for some players, and probably occasionnally PG will work with 16Go on some systems, but needing 32Go on most.

I'll throw this with little hope, but is there any intent to use a less outdated programming language than lua at some point ? It could help with optimization.

#4490983 - 10/01/19 06:02 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: theOden]  
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NineLine Offline
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Originally Posted by theOden
Can you ask Nick if he thinks that AA radar isn't seen by SAM systems?
If he do think it does, ask him if all Hornets fly blind to hide from SAM umbrella.


I think its what brings the most gameplay returns, they feel other things are better to bring first. That is not to say A2G radar isnt being worked on in some capacity, only that it's not the highest on the priority list currently.

#4490984 - 10/01/19 06:07 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: rollnloop.]  
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NineLine Offline
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Originally Posted by rollnloop.
Thanks for taking the time for this detailed answer.

As theOden points out, any reason to postpone ground radar will be hard to get accepted. Obviously using radar exposes one to any detection system, but it's too much of an asset in many a situation (especially against moving ground targets, to this very player, in falcon BMS) to be postponed any longer. Postponing it for 20 years makes consumer thinks ED is incompetent in simulating air to ground radar, and it's quite bad for business.

I'm quite satisfied with the other answers, but I'll open again my wallet based on what's in the game, not promises, as you may have guessed already.

I'll add that caucasus plays OK with 16Go, even with 8 for some players, and probably occasionnally PG will work with 16Go on some systems, but needing 32Go on most.

I'll throw this with little hope, but is there any intent to use a less outdated programming language than lua at some point ? It could help with optimization.


A2G radar is in works, it's not postponed or any such thing, but with a smaller team, priorities are made, things like TWS are currently higher on the list.

I have 32 myself, I know there are a few people I have talked to on discord and other places that say 16 works just fine on PG, so there may be more fine-tuning you can look at. Ask around, some people might have some tips or tricks for you.

We are currently looking at and working at Vulkan and better multi-processor support among other things.

#4490985 - 10/01/19 06:40 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: rollnloop.]  
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Sobek Offline
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Originally Posted by rollnloop.
it's too much of an asset in many a situation (especially against moving ground targets, to this very player, in falcon BMS) to be postponed any longer.


The thing is, the depiction of GM and GMT modes in BMS is really buffed. If AG modes worked as well as they do in BMS, there would be almost no need at all to carry a TGP, at least when using GPS guided PGMs. There's a reason that engineers came up with SAR, and that reason is that with fighter radar antennae being as small as they are, resolution without SAR is really bad.

Things are different with the Hornets SEA mode though, as that is where AG radar should work quite well. There's even a Harpoon mode that is dependent on the radar.

#4490986 - 10/01/19 06:44 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Mr_Blastman Offline
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But no dynamic campaign yet...

Yawn.

Drop all this plane crap and give us a dynamic campaign, ED.

#4490992 - 10/01/19 10:31 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Winfield Offline
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
But no dynamic campaign yet...

Yawn.


No, not yet.

However it is confirmed planned, and confirmed planned is better than no plan

Originally Posted by Nick Grey
You have very cleverly identified some of the above along with other realities we face such as the need for permanent innovation and engine renewal. Boyond daily bug fixing, the fundamental issues such as new graphics challenges (Vulkan, effects, mutli-threading etc), network improvements, sound improvements, new damage engine, dynamic campaign, web RTC, new game statistics engine, new weather engine, etc etc are all part of our roadmap and more than 50% of our staff work on these elements which are not directly module related.


Source

#4490997 - 10/01/19 10:58 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Winfield Offline
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Originally Posted by SiThSpAwN
Originally Posted by rollnloop
Thank you for posting these.

It's pretty nice to have someone "in the know" around here.

Anyway, thanks for venturing again into hostile skies, and good luck to ED, wish you success, just not with my money at the moment.



You bet, want to try and see if I cant make it work over here this time,


I too would like to thank you NineLine for venturing into these parts again.
I never thought I'd see the day you would venture back here or see you at Reddit.

Thank you for taking the time to answer the questions asked here and posting the F-16's youtube video's, I haven't been following the release of the F-16 but it does look like it is making good progress.

as for

Originally Posted by SiThSpAwN
Originally Posted by rollnloop.
I'll add that caucasus plays OK with 16Go, even with 8 for some players, and probably occasionnally PG will work with 16Go on some systems, but needing 32Go on most..


I have 32 myself, I know there are a few people I have talked to on discord and other places that say 16 works just fine on PG, so there may be more fine-tuning you can look at. Ask around, some people might have some tips or tricks for you.


I can confirm that PG runs fine on my 5 year old PC with 16G and old school I5 3570K

An SSD made all the difference all those years ago. Before the SSD, Mission editor took 10 minutes to load PG


#4491003 - 10/01/19 12:13 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
Joined: Jun 2004
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Well maybe today it would run with 16Go, I went tired of poor performance and bought 32Go 1 year ago, as all my buddies had done at the time. I instantly got no more crashes/freezes.

Our last pilot had to upgrade only 3 months ago, maybe since there has been some optimization, that is good news indeed if it plays on 16 Go systems, I won't pull out 16Go to check so I'll have to trust you on this one.

Last edited by rollnloop.; 10/01/19 12:14 PM.
#4491026 - 10/01/19 04:58 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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What is this 16 Go stuff?

Ram is measured in gigabytes, or GB, not gillenops.

#4491028 - 10/01/19 05:06 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Welcome back NineLine...good to see ya wink

Thanks for the detailed info thumbsup


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#4491030 - 10/01/19 05:13 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Yes, and in large parts of Europe it's denoted as Go - a Giga octet ... a byte is an octet.

Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
What is this 16 Go stuff?

Ram is measured in gigabytes, or GB, not gillenops.


Last edited by GrayGhost; 10/01/19 05:14 PM.

--
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#4491037 - 10/01/19 05:58 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield
Originally Posted by SiThSpAwN
Originally Posted by rollnloop
Thank you for posting these.

It's pretty nice to have someone "in the know" around here.

Anyway, thanks for venturing again into hostile skies, and good luck to ED, wish you success, just not with my money at the moment.



You bet, want to try and see if I cant make it work over here this time,


I too would like to thank you NineLine for venturing into these parts again.
I never thought I'd see the day you would venture back here or see you at Reddit.

Thank you for taking the time to answer the questions asked here and posting the F-16's youtube video's, I haven't been following the release of the F-16 but it does look like it is making good progress.

as for

Originally Posted by SiThSpAwN
Originally Posted by rollnloop.
I'll add that caucasus plays OK with 16Go, even with 8 for some players, and probably occasionnally PG will work with 16Go on some systems, but needing 32Go on most..


I have 32 myself, I know there are a few people I have talked to on discord and other places that say 16 works just fine on PG, so there may be more fine-tuning you can look at. Ask around, some people might have some tips or tricks for you.


I can confirm that PG runs fine on my 5 year old PC with 16G and old school I5 3570K

An SSD made all the difference all those years ago. Before the SSD, Mission editor took 10 minutes to load PG




I'm just back for your campaign you are working wink

#4491038 - 10/01/19 05:58 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield
Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
But no dynamic campaign yet...

Yawn.


No, not yet.

However it is confirmed planned, and confirmed planned is better than no plan

Originally Posted by Nick Grey
You have very cleverly identified some of the above along with other realities we face such as the need for permanent innovation and engine renewal. Boyond daily bug fixing, the fundamental issues such as new graphics challenges (Vulkan, effects, mutli-threading etc), network improvements, sound improvements, new damage engine, dynamic campaign, web RTC, new game statistics engine, new weather engine, etc etc are all part of our roadmap and more than 50% of our staff work on these elements which are not directly module related.


Source








Better than planned, in active development smile

#4491043 - 10/01/19 06:22 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Dear Pilots!

We are pleased to announce that DCS: F-16C Viper will be released on our e-Shop and Steam on 03 October 2019! Please note that the pre-order discount from our e-Shop will end then.

DCS World e-Shop:
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/shop/modules/viper/
Steam:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1090850/DCS_F16C_Viper/

We have also been reaching out to Steam through multiple channels to extend the pre-order period, but we have been unsuccessful. We will keep trying.

We are very excited to make this work of art available to you, and we thank you for your encouragement and support. We could not do this without you.

Sincerely,
The Eagle Dynamics Team

Last edited by NineLine; 10/01/19 06:33 PM.
#4491046 - 10/01/19 07:15 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I assume 3rd Oct if only for Open Beta users and customers running stable can sit still for another 2 or 15 weeks?

#4491047 - 10/01/19 07:22 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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All new releases drop in Open Beta first, correct.

#4491054 - 10/01/19 07:50 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I will never understand why you folks call it "release" when you actually ship it to your beta-testers.

#4491058 - 10/01/19 08:24 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Open Beta we have found is the best approach. If something about it cripples Open Beta, then people have Stable to fall back on.

#4491067 - 10/01/19 09:17 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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In reference to the above post, the issues with Steam have been corrected, and the discount is available till the 3rd now as well.

#4491072 - 10/01/19 10:13 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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In this DCS: F-16C Viper video, we will take a first look at the Litening targeting pod for the Viper. This is an initial version with more features to come in parallel with development of the Litening targeting pod for the Hornet.

We plan to release our Viper on 3 October 2019.

Basic steps for self-lase LGB attack:

Master Arm on
Laser on
CCRP selected
Target tracked on TGP
Bomb laser code and TGP laser code match
Bomb release
Keep out of TGP mask zone
First stage of trigger held to lase

#4491082 - 10/02/19 12:12 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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yall just trying to suck me back into flight simming huh?

#4491151 - 10/02/19 04:09 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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DCS: F-16C Viper – One Day to Go!



With just one day to go before release of our DCS: F-16C Viper, we wanted to remind everyone that the pre-order discount will also end tomorrow. Based on the Hornet, it will probably be over a year until we put the Viper on sale again. If you wish to purchase the Viper at a discount, you have less than 24 hours.

Pre-order now and save 20% on our e-Shop at:
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/shop/modules/viper/

Or, Steam at:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1090850/DCS_F16C_Viper/

Over our many years of developing aircraft, no other aircraft was as challenging to get the landing gear animations correct as the Viper. We believe the result is fantastic.

Now that the landing gear animation is complete, our external aircraft artist is focusing on the external textures and creating a texture template that we can release after the Viper launch on 3 October 2019.

#4491164 - 10/02/19 05:48 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Stormtrooper]  
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Originally Posted by Stormtrooper
yall just trying to suck me back into flight simming huh?


Yes...I feel the simming flowing through you.......


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#4491173 - 10/02/19 07:42 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
DCS: F-16C Viper – One Day to Go!



With just one day to go before release of our DCS: F-16C Viper, we wanted to remind everyone that the pre-order discount will also end tomorrow. Based on the Hornet, it will probably be over a year until we put the Viper on sale again. If you wish to purchase the Viper at a discount, you have less than 24 hours.

Pre-order now and save 20% on our e-Shop at:
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/shop/modules/viper/

Or, Steam at:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1090850/DCS_F16C_Viper/

Over our many years of developing aircraft, no other aircraft was as challenging to get the landing gear animations correct as the Viper. We believe the result is fantastic.

Now that the landing gear animation is complete, our external aircraft artist is focusing on the external textures and creating a texture template that we can release after the Viper launch on 3 October 2019.


I haven't bought any module for a while,

if I buy from Steam can I use it in the install I have : which has modules bought directly from the developer ?

Last edited by Tom_Weiss; 10/02/19 07:43 PM.
#4491175 - 10/02/19 08:04 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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You can buy from Steam and transfer it to the standalone.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=229207

#4491177 - 10/02/19 08:06 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
Over our many years of developing aircraft................


Let me know when ED or any 3rd party have actually finished one of the modules....and then I'll have a think about entertaining some of the unfinished and never-intended-to-be-finished content


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4491182 - 10/02/19 08:44 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
You can buy from Steam and transfer it to the standalone.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=229207


Ok - easier to buy from Steam as it uses local currency.

#4491183 - 10/02/19 08:49 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss
Originally Posted by NineLine
You can buy from Steam and transfer it to the standalone.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=229207


Ok - easier to buy from Steam as it uses local currency.


thumbsup

We should see the Viper texture template soon, it sounds like the 3D model is now finalized.

Need all you quality painters on the job, so many cool paint schemes out there for the Viper.

#4491184 - 10/02/19 08:52 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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smile

#4491199 - 10/02/19 10:54 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Last edited by NineLine; 10/02/19 11:15 PM.
#4491273 - 10/03/19 01:35 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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What a poor trailer rolleyes in one day i can do better.i understand that the whole module is of this quality?

#4491295 - 10/03/19 04:46 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: BANITA]  
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Originally Posted by BANITA
What a poor trailer rolleyes in one day i can do better.i understand that the whole module is of this quality?


Go for it!


“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
#4491311 - 10/03/19 06:21 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Sorry I can not believe that such a company release the most important module make such a hopeless trailer.
These are only cut and randomly bonded shots.
Watch the old amraam trailers, see how make good movies.

#4491312 - 10/03/19 06:25 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: BANITA]  
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Originally Posted by BANITA
Sorry I can not believe that such a company release the most important module make such a hopeless trailer.
These are only cut and randomly bonded shots.
Watch the old amraam trailers, see how make good movies.


Yeah of only we could get him to do these trailers... oh wait... wink

#4491313 - 10/03/19 06:29 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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just another module, no need for drama

Might be best to not judge a product on one trailer




#4491331 - 10/03/19 08:54 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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this module will work on my DCS install which has a few years old modules or will I need to have a different install for it ?

#4491333 - 10/03/19 09:00 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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You will need to be running the latest Open Beta right now, if everything checks out it should move to the standard version in not too long.

#4491356 - 10/04/19 12:35 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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OK - I found it at the DCS website and it is installing it, tomorrow I'll check it

by then Steam will likely have the F-16 available.

another newbie question, since the F-16 I have is Steam, I won't need to have the Steam DCS installed, only the F-16 serial key, correct ?

#4491360 - 10/04/19 12:43 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Its already on Steam, again Open Beta, but yeah, you go into your account with that link I showed, and it should show what you have available to transfer to the standalone, as well, it will remain in your Steam should you want to use it there.

#4491364 - 10/04/19 01:22 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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OK! will do it tomorrow, thanks smile

#4491388 - 10/04/19 07:46 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: BANITA]  
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Originally Posted by BANITA
Sorry I can not believe that such a company release the most important module make such a hopeless trailer.
These are only cut and randomly bonded shots.
Watch the old amraam trailers, see how make good movies.


Must have missed the memo from a year or so ago......

#4491389 - 10/04/19 08:31 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Well for my part I won't be buying this for a while. I am excited for the F-16 in DCS, but ED has a long history of not finishing it's modules. This is not new, and I belive they will once finish it... kind of. Lets look at the past. The A-10C took years to be in a "released" state and after it was so, it still has bugs things that don't work or get constantly broken. Yes it's very playable now, has a lot more features, but it ED has shown time and time again that they are not going to prioritize to actually finish their modules. Now I don't know how much money they actually make compared to their expenses making this modules but people aren't getting what they paid for. And I the business module of pumping out new modules to paying for finishing the old ones, is eighter going to leave a lot of modules unfinished forever or going to fail completly at one point. I think DCS is a great product but it has a lot of "buts" about it. And one of the major ones is certainly the way ED tottaly disrespects their costumers.
Their modules are getting increasingly expensive even without getting increassingly complex. From ED's own description the F-16 and F-18 are rather similar share a lot of developing common ground and are about the same complexity wise. Yet the F-16 is getting a 10 dollar price increase over the f-18 a little over a year ago. The only other product sold by this price was the F-14 wich is a greater complexity product that has a very diferent front/back seat functionality and will eventually include two flyable versions. It's still expensive, but I can see how to justify it. Releasing the F-16 at the same price range feels like money grabing. "It worked for heatblurs F-14, lets go for it!"
Also lets not forget that before the f-18 the release price for modules was 60 bucks not 70, but lets just go with 80 now. Is this ED trying to stay economicaly viable? If that's the case why keep the disconted pre-order period? You are just robing yourself of part of the products? Or is it just psychological tactics to get the sale out, actually realizing there will be few sales at full price?
In any case it feels like money grabing to me, specially considering that the product that the client is paying now won't be finished for a long time and when it is deemed finished it will still have more problems than you can shake a stick at for twice as long still.
But the real disrespect to costumers comes when ED in the most totalitarist way possible tries to silent all "discent". You can say whatever you want about their right to manage their forum however they see fit. But that's actually not correct, because that forum is not only a place for the comunity, it's also their "suport" forum. They can only get away with their practices because they are a eastern based company, what an absolute apawling disregard for consumer rights. Want to see a product forum that respects their costumers rights? Frontier Developments! Elite Dangerous has a lot of problems and I'm amazed at the #%&*$# that get's said in that forum towards the game and the developers. But you know what, they don't get deleted and people don't get banned. Not for fair criticism and not even for unfair criticism. They just take it. "The costumer is always right!" Gess they never heard of that one on Eagle Dynamics.

Long story short? I'll almost certainly still give ED my money, but only in 2 years or so when the Viper is sold at half price. I have BMS and I have more DCS modules than I have the time to learn properly.

#4491396 - 10/04/19 10:31 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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^^^ AMEN. F16 will be completed in 5 -10 years from now. Wasted money.

#4491417 - 10/04/19 12:52 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
You can buy from Steam and transfer it to the standalone.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=229207


took a while for it to copy from the other install and I managed to bind Steam, the F-16 module is now installed. This weekend I'll give it a try.

thanks ! smile

#4491459 - 10/04/19 07:06 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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NineLine Offline
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Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss
Originally Posted by NineLine
You can buy from Steam and transfer it to the standalone.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=229207


took a while for it to copy from the other install and I managed to bind Steam, the F-16 module is now installed. This weekend I'll give it a try.

thanks ! smile



thumbsup

#4491495 - 10/04/19 11:46 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I purchased this module on Thursday after watching a few vids posted here by NineLine. I have not been able to give it a run as I have a failed ssd and both versions of DCS won't fit on the hard drive.

Due to currency rates in Australia, the module with the 20% discount was actually $95.50AUD.

If it won't be on sale for another 1-2 years it is hard to predict what world currency exchange rate will be. It doesn't look like our exchange rate will improve against the US dollar any time soon.

That is my gripe and has been for some time regarding modules released by ED. It wasn't so bad when modules were 49.95 or 39.95 but I feel for those those whose hobby is flight simulation in this country and only earn a basic minimum wage.


Ed can't fix that problem though


#4491511 - 10/05/19 03:00 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss
Originally Posted by NineLine
You can buy from Steam and transfer it to the standalone.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=229207


took a while for it to copy from the other install and I managed to bind Steam, the F-16 module is now installed. This weekend I'll give it a try.

thanks ! smile



what's it like Tom? post a couple of screen shots if you have got it all sorted please mate

#4491521 - 10/05/19 05:35 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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It seems the F-16 just gave Eagle Dynamics a whole lot new enemies of early access, reading Hoggit.
The good thing about early access is that Eagle Dynamics gets a good picture of how much development time they should bother to put into the module in the future.
Only thing is, that is not good for easy target customers that will insta-buy and 2 years later complain it isn't finished only to give up after 4 years with whatever state the module ended up in given the amount of dollars from the 4 years earlier pile of dollars gone by now.

Winfield and Tom, I'm actually disappointed you bought the F-16 already telling Eagle Dynamics this kind of early access is ok.

The level of detail for these modules are obviously way, way too deep for their current developers and in no way financially viable.
One of two actions must be taken, either lower the details/features enough to finish a module in time available for what customer-base is willing to pay or raise the price as needed for estimated cost what they try to achieve.

What Nick Grey is now doing is the first option but not telling the customers, not an impressive move to me.

Another possibility is that Eagle Dynamics are stuck with sloppy developers and given the F-16 release black screen issue (a bloody lua variable) and general cockups always surrounding DCS and most notably the open beta arrangement no one else needs to use this is probably very close to truth.

Just comparing the recent IL-2 update from 1CGS which equals 7 years of eagle dynamics work-results (not really but you get the picture) shipped right out to "stable version" is also very telling that Eagle Dynamics have chosen to hire the low cost developers.

So, maybe the level of detail they look for actually IS doable, but not with their current staff.

#4491527 - 10/05/19 07:25 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Another good point by an alert customer.
Expect nothing less than that the Viper will be put on hold half-way down the runway when the next early access is "released".

Attached Files HornetViper.png
#4491568 - 10/05/19 04:06 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I haven't flown any DCS jet since the A-10C stand alone for anything else than screenshots, so my opinion about is of a complete newbie, it looks very good as it is right now

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

maxed out options with 45-60 FPS

from what I can see the model is very good - hopefully they will release a template soon, the default skin is clearly still a placeholder.

#4491570 - 10/05/19 04:21 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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It was released in worse "Early Access" state than the Hornet was. The external lights aren't even functional yet... ED doesn't need to release more modules, they need to hire a competent accountant that can get their spending/expenses in order so they can stop using the "keep the lights on" BS excuse to keep dumping early early pre-alpha products on a gullible customer base. This is the last time I spend money on any more of their products. This was the last straw. Now that they've released this thing, I'm really curious to see how much longer it takes for the Hornet to actually reach a truly finished state, ie Ground Radar, ATFLIR etc.... I'm sick of Wags and Norm spinning BS excuses on the ED forum to the gullible fanboys with more money that common sense. Enough is enough.

#4491594 - 10/05/19 07:28 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss
Ithe default skin is clearly still a placeholder.


Very much so, I noted to the ED brass that the template is one of the most asked for things so far.

#4491595 - 10/05/19 07:31 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield
Stuff


Yeah, there is a lot of work to be done for sure, but I love having it out in public right now as opposed to closed testing because there is an incredible amount of subject matter experts out there for the F-16, its really help get some bugs reported, or even clear up some confusion as available manuals arent always very descriptive of how stuff works in the real world.

Indeed this release is not for everyone, Alpha can be a very fair assessment, but we appreciate those that are taking part, and helping in the development for whatever that is worth.

#4491621 - 10/06/19 12:51 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss
Ithe default skin is clearly still a placeholder.


Very much so, I noted to the ED brass that the template is one of the most asked for things so far.


I hope they release it soon - with layers for rivets, panels and lines layers not merged.

#4491646 - 10/06/19 05:38 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I would think so, that is how the Hornet one, and any others that I have used, so I am sure it will be there same for the Viper.

#4491658 - 10/06/19 11:46 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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we will see smile

#4491901 - 10/07/19 04:31 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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So the RWR sounds aren't even copied from the F/A-18 but even directly linked making it very silent for customers without the Hornet?
Haha what a #%&*$# - these developers have no self respect.
Embarrasing

#4491919 - 10/07/19 05:35 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden
So the RWR sounds aren't even copied from the F/A-18 but even directly linked making it very silent for customers without the Hornet?


That can't be true, can it? Well, you know I respect your opinion Oden, so that's a bit of a shock really. But then again, maybe not so much right?

As a long time F4 player and flight simmer in general, if there were any module in DCS that would light my fire it would be this one. But back when this was all still LOMAC (which remains my latest ED purchase), I recognized that this developer was choosing a path that didn't dovetail with what I want to see in a combat flight sim. Many, many years later and that has not changed, and it's actually further diverged. I look at he DCS jets and think man I'd love to play that! But I know the rest will fail to meet my expectations because I follow it and see.

In essence I chose to vote with my wallet. I chose to not buy these titles because I didn't want to support the model. And frankly I am surprised that so many do. Different folks, different standards, different expectations, different outlooks I suppose. But the number of people I see complain about it all, while forking over their money is hard to reconcile. ED has no compelling reason to complete these modules when folks throw money at them in unfinished states. In my mind ED are masters of the empty promise, because those promises shine so brightly. If everyone is willing to pay for it unfinished, then there is no profit in continuing to finish it. As a business they make decisions based on profitability, not on whether anyone who has bought it is actually pleased with it. Haven't we seen this many times over in DCS? Who here has bought a module at any point in the past and feels it remains undone? It's akin to the mother that complains her son is a smack addict while giving him the money to buy more.

Nineline's recent charm offensive here is clearly paying dividends, so well done. But it doesn't work for me, and that's a shame, because that's a #%&*$# fine looking Viper. ED have found this sort of grey area in-between concept and execution. They have to release something, but it doesn't have to be, or eventually become, what was promised because it's already been paid for. Only when or if the inverse is true, when it's paid for when it's finished, will it change.


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#4491926 - 10/07/19 06:17 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Cheers DBond I also bought one module years ago , and I don't want anything else from this trash.one of the worst companies i have ever met.

#4491940 - 10/07/19 08:24 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Well said DBond, I couldn't have said better!

So yes, I vote with my wallet as well since I cannot stand this ED "strategy" (I call it ripping of clients) of releasing eternal Alpha/Beta modules. As such the only DCS modules that I bought were Blackshark, A-10 and Huey (and bought these last two only when they came out of Beta and became "Final").
As such, I won't buy any more DCS modules at least until ED starts finishing modules which I believe will only happen during the 9-day week or on a 30th of February.

What puzzles me is the amount of people who apparently like/love to be ripped of but the human brain is indeed a very complex thing afterall... rolleyes

#4491941 - 10/07/19 08:27 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden
So the RWR sounds aren't even copied from the F/A-18 but even directly linked making it very silent for customers without the Hornet?
Haha what a #%&*$# - these developers have no self respect.
Embarrasing


So that's why all the youtubers have them, i thought i was going insane, lol. Yeah, only the blinking launch warning with no tone, with the threat volume knob all the way up... Gah, guess I'll be going back to Rift virtual desktop and F4. All those rwr chirps and blips have a character. Maybe even nostalgia.

#4491943 - 10/07/19 08:36 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: CTR69]  
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Originally Posted by CTR69
Originally Posted by theOden
So the RWR sounds aren't even copied from the F/A-18 but even directly linked making it very silent for customers without the Hornet?
Haha what a #%&*$# - these developers have no self respect.
Embarrasing


So that's why all the youtubers have them, i thought i was going insane, lol. Yeah, only the blinking launch warning with no tone, with the threat volume knob all the way up... Gah, guess I'll be going back to Rift virtual desktop and F4. All those rwr chirps and blips have a character. Maybe even nostalgia.


post a youtube link..

#4491945 - 10/07/19 08:45 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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DBond, having had the pleasure listening to you in Falcon BMS reading all info available from OOB and God knows preparing for a mission I am dead sure you would be exceptionally disappointed in DCS with it's TE level at best.
My last DCS mistake was the Viggen, but as a horrible Swede I just had to buy that one.

If, and i truly say IF, the Viper is "done" in 4 years then maybe it could be worth a purchase during Sale but given ED track record I think "done" can mean just about anything but not even close to what we can do in BMS even today.

As i stated before I am convinced they push early access as soon as possible to figure out how much work they can afford to put into the module.
How else are they going to survive financially?
People just don't work for free (well, modders do but that's a different game all together)

I'd rather host a BMS server 24/7 for a few years than see you spend dollars on DCS smile

#4491947 - 10/07/19 08:47 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Yeah the RWR thing is fixed internally, I think the dev involved was a little embarrassed by this one, one of those crunch time things that slips in the noise of everything else going on. Force10 might be able to feel for this a little bit, reminded me of customers sending files into our shop to have something printed and the forgot all the links to their files smile

Anyways, I know the Viper release isnt going to win a lot of the people here over, its very Alpha, and will be receiving a lot of love over the next while, I expect it will be Open Beta release again this week with Viper fixes. But I am not going to try and change anyones mind here, certainly it's not in the shape some people would be happy with, we tried to be clear how early it was, but at the end of the day, people want what they want, and we are working hard to get it there.

#4491972 - 10/08/19 01:15 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
Yeah the RWR thing is fixed internally, I think the dev involved was a little embarrassed by this one, one of those crunch time things that slips in the noise of everything else going on. Force10 might be able to feel for this a little bit, reminded me of customers sending files into our shop to have something printed and the forgot all the links to their files smile

Anyways, I know the Viper release isnt going to win a lot of the people here over, its very Alpha, and will be receiving a lot of love over the next while, I expect it will be Open Beta release again this week with Viper fixes. But I am not going to try and change anyones mind here, certainly it's not in the shape some people would be happy with, we tried to be clear how early it was, but at the end of the day, people want what they want, and we are working hard to get it there.


So far I'm actually liking it.
It's similar, but different than BMS and hopefully will improve with time. ( I keep checking that the airflow knob is in normal every #%&*$# startup)
Find myself trying to do stuff on the ICP that isn't implemented yet but hey, it is what it is for now.
How they improve it going forward will tell the resulting story.

#4491986 - 10/08/19 05:20 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4064789#post4064789

Seriously, when people laugh at BMS F/A-18 for being just an F-16 in other clothes do I have news for them, the DCS YF-16 is nothing but a mod of DCS F/A-18

I bet the only ones saying this is a nice module are the printscreen-simmers spending 78% of their time in external view.

#4492037 - 10/08/19 12:45 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I'm loving the DCS Viper already - the list of its early access features were communicated perfectly well and to me it's awesome already - A-A, A-G TGP capable, Air refuelling, radios, aerodynamics, VR, replays, gorgeous sounds and landscapes, well modelled adversaries... F-16 is one of my favourite things in the universe and paying $60 for such an experience feels like an incredible privilege.

Last edited by Borsch; 10/08/19 12:45 PM.
#4492125 - 10/09/19 04:06 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden
Seriously, when people laugh at BMS F/A-18 for being just an F-16 in other clothes do I have news for them, the DCS YF-16 is nothing but a mod of DCS F/A-18

I bet the only ones saying this is a nice module are the printscreen-simmers spending 78% of their time in external view.


No, no. Best view. Cockpit. For the win!

[Linked Image]







#4492130 - 10/09/19 07:03 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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That's great bisher, but how do I know that's not the remaining 22%?
smile

(haha no need to answer that)

#4492133 - 10/09/19 08:15 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Oh I'm looking forward to turkey skinned f-16 screenshots over the syria map when released....

Brake chute or no brake chute

#4492167 - 10/09/19 03:17 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden
DBond, having had the pleasure listening to you in Falcon BMS reading all info available from OOB and God knows preparing for a mission I am dead sure you would be exceptionally disappointed in DCS with it's TE level at best.


Thanks mate, and you are probably correct. It's a shame, as I've always wanted the DCS Eagle and of course the Hornet and Viper as I'm a multi-role man at heart. I think I'm a perfect candidate for DCS, just the right demographic, but yet I pass on each and every one. My choice, and I know my single voice will spur no changes, and that's OK with me. ED won't succeed or fail based on my money, but I don't think I'm the only one that feels like I do, so surely there's significant money left on the table by EDs design decisions and development path.


Quote
I'd rather host a BMS server 24/7 for a few years than see you spend dollars on DCS smile


Me too!


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4492264 - 10/10/19 08:47 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Paradaz, it's not like you to remain quiet on the subject mate

#4492290 - 10/10/19 01:16 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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This is what I like about SimHQ, we can all argue....agree to disagree and still be friends afterwards. Hey sobek smile ....bisher, that goes for you too.

pucker up ladies.

#4492353 - 10/10/19 08:01 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield
Paradaz, it's not like you to remain quiet on the subject mate


I've heard all this crap before and got burned by incomplete tat that ED can't/won't complete. I'll entertain modules that get completed and have a combat environment to fly in....if it ever happens in my lifetime. At the moment, it's nothing more than a half-started button pushing start-up procedure simulator and screenshot generator. I've got much better things to do with my time than waste it in this massive loss of potential.

Originally Posted by DBond
but I don't think I'm the only one that feels like I do, so surely there's significant money left on the table by EDs design decisions and development path


No, you're not the only one......and I don't think ED ever have significant funds due to their utter incompetence. The only time ED probably do have funds is on the release of an early-access....however, as others have mentioned, these funds are instantly spaffed on the previous platform's development that is undoubtedly over-budget, unplanned and stumbling from one problem to the next. Does anyone really think that F16 early access funds will go anywhere else than the Hornet overspend. ED couldn't project manage a night out on the piss, never mind a complex software development and integration activity.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4492401 - 10/11/19 02:31 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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So it's going great, right guys??? Guys??? ...... Guys?

#4492416 - 10/11/19 05:56 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
So it's going great, right guys??? Guys??? ...... Guys?


If 'great' is defined as nothing has changed in the last 10 years then yes....absolutely great.

Early access platforms, never finished, no roadmap, no timeline, bug fixes that break functionality moving forward, change of plans, feature-creep.....and then an announcement and early access release of the next platform.

The definition of someone/something making the same mistakes over and over again, not learning from them and not making any improvements is 'incompetent'. I'd suggest that's the word you're looking for.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4492418 - 10/11/19 06:17 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Well, I would disagree with you, but I am sure that wouldn't do any of us any good. So chaff/flare wink

Last edited by NineLine; 10/11/19 06:18 AM.
#4492458 - 10/11/19 02:16 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
Well, I would disagree with you, but I am sure that wouldn't do any of us any good. So chaff/flare wink


You can disagree all you want but until ED actually starts making some positive changes, I have to agree with Paradaz.

The Hornet has been in EA for over a year, still no end in sight... no ATFLIR, A/A radar is still not fully functional, no ground radar (how is it that Heatblur and a free mod team (Community A-4E-C) managed to implement ground radar before yall???..there is NO excuse) and the most recent "patch" shows where the priorities are even though ED stated numerous times that Hornet development would not be hindered by the Viper. Quit lying to your paying customers and yall might not have to worry so much about how to keep the lights on....

#4492459 - 10/11/19 02:23 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I like the DCS model. Early access is what it is. You can wait for the finished model if you want or have it as soon as you can to play with. People complain that the early access modules are buggy, then DON"T BUY THEM! Simple as that. Wait a year or even 2 to purchase them. I would rather have them sooner than later. Gives me more time to learn.


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#4492461 - 10/11/19 02:37 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: specialksl]  
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Originally Posted by specialksl
I like the DCS model. Early access is what it is. You can wait for the finished model if you want or have it as soon as you can to play with. People complain that the early access modules are buggy, then DON"T BUY THEM! Simple as that. Wait a year or even 2 to purchase them. I would rather have them sooner than later. Gives me more time to learn.


That "logic" is flawed at best. How do you know how buggy a module is until you actually buy it?? They aren't offering free trials of the modules last time I checked.... they aren't exactly advertising how buggy their products are either. The "if you don't like it don't buy it" line is BULLSH&T. Where in the list of the features of the current EA Viper does it list, "oh by the way, we didn't even bother to even finish the external lighting and there is no damage model" I highly doubt they would've released a third party module in that poor of a state.


Last edited by reconmercs; 10/11/19 02:38 PM.
#4492462 - 10/11/19 02:51 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: reconmercs]  
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Originally Posted by reconmercs
That "logic" is flawed at best. How do you know how buggy a module is until you actually buy it??


Um. Research?



#4492466 - 10/11/19 03:11 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: specialksl]  
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Originally Posted by specialksl
I like the DCS model. Early access is what it is. You can wait for the finished model if you want or have it as soon as you can to play with. People complain that the early access modules are buggy, then DON"T BUY THEM! Simple as that. Wait a year or even 2 to purchase them. I would rather have them sooner than later. Gives me more time to learn.


To each his own. I think everyone on this board knows what early access means, and understands that things will be missing. But the expectation is that these modules will be finished in a reasonable amount of time. Isn't this where ED falls down? So much so that I've come to see EDs EA as the actual release. I made a comment before about ED finding a 'grey area between concept and execution', and it's early access. By calling it early access they have effectively shielded themselves from the responsibility to actually finish it. If it stays in EA forever, what do we have? Just, 'access'?

You're free to call it like you see it, but for me attitudes like yours are what enables this to happen in the first place.

If someone might indulge me, how many modules have been released and how many are complete? What do the numbers say? NineLine would have this info.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4492470 - 10/11/19 03:50 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: bisher]  
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Originally Posted by bisher
Originally Posted by reconmercs
That "logic" is flawed at best. How do you know how buggy a module is until you actually buy it??


Um. Research?



Um. where was ED stating the external model and damage model weren't complete BEFORE the release and BEFORE the discount went away?

#4492471 - 10/11/19 04:07 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: reconmercs]  
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Originally Posted by reconmercs
Um. where was ED stating the external model and damage model weren't complete BEFORE the release and BEFORE the discount went away?


Same answer you'd have to research that. I'm not doing if for you smile

Please don't mock, it's impolite



#4492472 - 10/11/19 04:27 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: bisher]  
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Originally Posted by bisher
Originally Posted by reconmercs
Um. where was ED stating the external model and damage model weren't complete BEFORE the release and BEFORE the discount went away?


Same answer you'd have to research that. I'm not doing if for you smile

Please don't mock, it's impolite


The answer is NOWHERE. You won't provide anywhere stating the opposite of this but you have no issues shilling for a company that has proven they couldn't care less about their customer base screwy

#4492474 - 10/11/19 04:42 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I know, eh?What the hell? Boy, the gall smile



#4492495 - 10/11/19 07:01 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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From today's newsletter.....

Quote
With the early access release of the Viper, we are now focusing on the most pressing bugs and desired new features for the Hornet and Viper


This says it all. Even though ED stated several times the Viper early access wasn't affecting the Hornet work, it should never affect the 'most pressing bugs' on the Hornet anyway - it should always be the highest priority until it's ready for a gold release. This just shows where ED's priorities are and they're desperate for cash, to the point where they drop essential work on the Hornet because they've already received funds for that and focus resources on the next early access mess. To that end, we also know what will happen with the unfinished Hornet and Viper when the next early access is announced... they will be dropped like hot stones and the vicious circle of incompetence continues with the end result being an even bigger selection of unfinished platforms.

I assume we'll also see a new push for mission packs for the Viper even though it can barely be classed as an alpha....and every update will break the missions meaning more integration and regression testing needed on every updated build.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4492519 - 10/11/19 08:58 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
From today's newsletter.....

Quote
With the early access release of the Viper, we are now focusing on the most pressing bugs and desired new features for the Hornet and Viper


This says it all. Even though ED stated several times the Viper early access wasn't affecting the Hornet work, it should never affect the 'most pressing bugs' on the Hornet anyway - it should always be the highest priority until it's ready for a gold release. This just shows where ED's priorities are and they're desperate for cash, to the point where they drop essential work on the Hornet because they've already received funds for that and focus resources on the next early access mess. To that end, we also know what will happen with the unfinished Hornet and Viper when the next early access is announced... they will be dropped like hot stones and the vicious circle of incompetence continues with the end result being an even bigger selection of unfinished platforms.

I assume we'll also see a new push for mission packs for the Viper even though it can barely be classed as an alpha....and every update will break the missions meaning more integration and regression testing needed on every updated build.



Pretty much. Mix and repeat, "Hey guys, Wags here, look at this shiny new Mi-24 coming soon to Early Access, look at that awesome animation of the landing gear moving..this will make you forget all about the unfinished Hornet.. Viper.. FW190..." nope

#4492769 - 10/13/19 08:08 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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This should be required viewing for everyone currently employed at ED. Its a perfect explanation why so many are frustrated:




#4492771 - 10/13/19 08:11 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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We have had an internal discussion about it now, was a great way to get some new ideas looked at for better communication and such, so all the top brass saw it, and are taking notes.

#4492780 - 10/13/19 09:16 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
We have had an internal discussion about it now, was a great way to get some new ideas looked at for better communication and such, so all the top brass saw it, and are taking notes.



Glad yall are discussing and open to feedback, hopefully this eventually leads to positive change at ED.

#4492781 - 10/13/19 09:20 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Let’s just hope it’s not too late, right now it feels ED is on a slippery slope at the edge of a canyon, consumer relationship wise.

#4492890 - 10/14/19 07:06 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
We have had an internal discussion about it now, was a great way to get some new ideas looked at for better communication and such, so all the top brass saw it, and are taking notes.


You're completely missing the point if you think it's only the 'communication' that needs improving.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4492892 - 10/14/19 07:12 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
Originally Posted by NineLine
We have had an internal discussion about it now, was a great way to get some new ideas looked at for better communication and such, so all the top brass saw it, and are taking notes.


You're completely missing the point if you think it's only the 'communication' that needs improving.


Nope, and I am sorry I didn't list each point out for you, but it starts with communication, and that includes listening to where the issues are from reports made by the front line people, communication from users, etc. That communication covers every aspect of what is good and bad in DCS, and when it is addressed or acknowledged by the team, the communication back to the user needs to be addressed as well. We might be working on an issue, but you don't know it because it hasn't been communicated properly to you.

#4492900 - 10/14/19 07:35 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
Originally Posted by Paradaz
Originally Posted by NineLine
We have had an internal discussion about it now, was a great way to get some new ideas looked at for better communication and such, so all the top brass saw it, and are taking notes.


You're completely missing the point if you think it's only the 'communication' that needs improving.


Nope, and I am sorry I didn't list each point out for you, but it starts with communication, and that includes listening to where the issues are from reports made by the front line people, communication from users, etc. That communication covers every aspect of what is good and bad in DCS, and when it is addressed or acknowledged by the team, the communication back to the user needs to be addressed as well. We might be working on an issue, but you don't know it because it hasn't been communicated properly to you.


Well, given that ED have had the best part of 20 years in total and 11 years since Black Shark was released.....the message boards at ED and the forums in places like SimHQ have had plenty of information for them to take notice.....yet they haven't bothered to take anything in. How many years have we been saying that ED simply refuse to learn by their mistakes? I really can't see it as any excuse that ED can say they need to listen to where the issues are and reports from front line people.....their own message boards are fully of complaints - or at least half-complaints, because the nature of the boards and the actions by people such as yourself aren't allowing the userbase to actually make a worthwhile criticism for fear of being banned or censored.

The video linked above, which you say ED have had an internal discussion about basically just slagged the strategy, integration and end product........if that had been done in text on the ED message boards, the ED community wouldn't have allowed it to stand.....and there goes another huge problem that you and ED have created for yourselves.

To be honest, it's irrelevant whether you're working on an issue or not...and not communicating it to the users because the facts are that ED have been constantly 'working on issues' for the last 11 years, and like I've said many times here at SimHQ.........no improvement has been displayed. Whether it's the big 2.5 overhaul, the amount of unfinished platforms, no coherent roadmap, the moving of goalposts and the constant tweak of peripheries such as updating the KA50 cockpit when there are bigger core issues needing fixing, it all comes down to incompetence. I really struggle to see how things will ever improve and all these excuses we've heard before. I mean really....."we have to improve communication"......that could be ED's slogan. I can't even recall how many times that has been stated by ED.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4492904 - 10/14/19 07:52 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Paradaz]  
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That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it, all I can tell you is what I know. And I know that isn't good enough until you see results.

#4492909 - 10/14/19 08:05 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it, all I can tell you is what I know. And I know that isn't good enough until you see results.


It's the first time you've ever said that I'm welcome to my own opinion.....funnily enough it was my own opinion for posts on SimHQ that got me banned on the ED message boards proving that it wasn't welcome at all so I'll take that with a truckload of salt. Too little too late. When I hear there is a module that can be classed as 'gold' or 'complete' I'll entertain starting DCS up again. I won't be holding my breath.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4492916 - 10/14/19 08:58 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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PS your ban has already been lifted.

#4493084 - 10/15/19 11:49 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Matt Wagner said mine never would be. Still the case? Username: ruggbutt

#4493100 - 10/16/19 01:30 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: LOF_Rugg]  
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Originally Posted by LOF_Rugg
Matt Wagner said mine never would be. Still the case? Username: ruggbutt


Seems you don't have an account there anymore (I can't find it so dunno if it was deleted or something else), I was never involved with your go around, I only heard stories (from you here and some from the other side), I think the best course of action for you would be to reach out to Matt directly, it sounds like it got to epic personal and real-world proportions, and just based on that, I don't want to get too deeply involved. Sorry, I can't be more help there.

#4493178 - 10/16/19 03:54 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I guess I could stop by his house, he lives fairly close to me. LOL

#4493181 - 10/16/19 04:07 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I am assuming this is a joke, but I am pretty sure that would not have great results.

#4493183 - 10/16/19 04:45 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: LOF_Rugg]  
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Originally Posted by LOF_Rugg
I guess I could stop by his house, he lives fairly close to me. LOL


I'm guessing it's that kind of joking that got you in trouble before salute


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#4493208 - 10/16/19 07:22 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted by Force10


I'm guessing it's that kind of joking that got you in trouble before salute

Recording our personal phone call and threatening to post it publicly where he talked pretty #%&*$# about his customers and especially the squadrons that were flying LOMAC at the time is what set him off. Because Matt wants to look like the good guy in all aspects when he really isn't. He #%&*$# with me for years, tried to get me thrown off a dev team, caused me problems with an E3 event I was to attend for CombatAce and much more. He tried to cause me problems with CH Products when I was working with them. Instead of confronting him I chose to not attend that E3 event. I thought taking the higher road was the better idea. It wasn't because Matt wouldn't and still won't let it go. Just cuz he's in a wheel chair doesn't mean he's a good dude, and he plays on that #%&*$#. Ask Stormin' Norman.

#4493209 - 10/16/19 07:28 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Welp, I think that pretty much answers that.

#4493225 - 10/16/19 09:01 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Yep, sure does. The not so funny thing about it was that the community was up in arms about heavy handedness from the mods on the forum, this was the very first time this had happened. I had posted something about letting cooler heads prevail and I got a PM from Wags asking me to call him. After he told me he didn't care what the squadrons thought I pissed him off by telling him that was a dick thing to say. The next day I posted that I wanted my account removed because of what Wags said, he called me a liar and I threatened to post the audio.

I didn't go looking for problems. He sought me out and acted like a jerk. I don't suffer people like that very well.

Last edited by LOF_Rugg; 10/16/19 09:02 PM.
#4493230 - 10/16/19 09:22 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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I dunno what to say, there are two sides to everything, and it's between you and him. All bans on the forum have been lifted, but this seems to go well beyond that.

#4493350 - 10/17/19 08:40 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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#4493384 - 10/18/19 02:06 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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So...now the Viper is getting TWS before the Hornet gets its.... you literally can't make this stuff up nope


https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=244404&page=3

ED takes a small step forward and 15 backwards when it comes to their customers...

#4493385 - 10/18/19 02:30 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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It was decided to keep the Radar dev put, for now, it was more efficient in the long run, and much of the TWS work on the Viper is transferable to the Hornet.

#4493459 - 10/18/19 12:56 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: LOF_Rugg]  
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Originally Posted by LOF_Rugg
Yep, sure does. The not so funny thing about it was that the community was up in arms about heavy handedness from the mods on the forum, this was the very first time this had happened. I had posted something about letting cooler heads prevail and I got a PM from Wags asking me to call him. After he told me he didn't care what the squadrons thought I pissed him off by telling him that was a dick thing to say. The next day I posted that I wanted my account removed because of what Wags said, he called me a liar and I threatened to post the audio.

I didn't go looking for problems. He sought me out and acted like a jerk. I don't suffer people like that very well.



A phone call? The plot thickens

#4493534 - 10/18/19 09:19 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: reconmercs]  
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Originally Posted by reconmercs
So...now the Viper is getting TWS before the Hornet gets its....


Good. Keep the bugs out of our bug, they can work them out in the viper smile



#4493567 - 10/19/19 05:05 AM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted by NineLine
That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it, all I can tell you is what I know. And I know that isn't good enough until you see results.


I was banned by you for asking the VEAO 3rd party contractor with ED where my P40 was and when it would be finished and released. They never did release it and anyone(like myself) that pre purchased the P40 never saw a product released. They never E-mailed me to let me know there was a refund available(1 week only) so I was the victim of what had every appearance of being a fraudulent transaction. When I posted the question to ED on the Forums about what they were going to do to compensate these customers I was banned again. Please don't tell me that is my opinion and I am welcome to it. What I just stated is fact and when I expressed my opinion on the ED Forum all you did was Ban me. I still own a lot of modules from DCS World and I was just looking at the Rata on sale for 19.99$, but then I said to myself, no F-ing way will I buy anything from them. I would love to own the F14, F18, F16, Viggen, AV8B, Mig19, Fw190A8, not to mention the Straight of Hormuz Map, but I WILL BE DAMMED(miss spelled on purpose) IF I WILL SPEND ANYMORE MONEY WITH ED OR DEAL WITH YOU ON THE FORUMS. Hell I haven't even received the P47 or Me262 from the WWII debacle. ED and Ed's Forums haven't been listening to their customers for well over a decade, what would make anyone think that they or you will start all of a sudden now? Add all of those modules up, what is that over 400$ worth? I hope new customers get both sides of the story as you mentioned earlier. There is the rosy picture you paint of how ED has now woken up and really wants to listen to the customers and then there is the actual truth of how they (Ed and you) have run a disorganized, disreputable , disrespectful , borderline possibly fraudulent company and Forum. If Ed finished one half of the Modules they already have sold and released, you guys would probably be the top Sim producing developer out there, but then there is reality. Reality shows a bunch of half finished products that will never see a customer approved finished state. Those are just the facts, I won't state my opinion as Force10 would just have to ban me because even for SimHQ standards it wouldn't be pretty.

S!Blade<><

#4493630 - 10/19/19 02:50 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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New interview with "Wags" from Mudspike:

https://www.mudspike.com/mudspike-ama-with-eagle-dynamics-senior-producer-matt-wagner/

I've got to say honestly, I think ED is a sinking ship at this point. Some of the things he claims they are working on...they were supposedly working on years ago.... Basically the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Ground radar was a promised feature of the Hornet and they have no clue when it'll actually be available from the looks of the interview, they haven't even figured out how to render it yet nope Meanwhile a free mod (A-4E) has it as does the Heatblur Viggen. I don't know if it just complete incompetence or ego that ED just wont seek help from their 3rd Party Developers. Same issue with Multi-crew and the UH-1, they claimed they were "close" years ago. This is also the same organization that couldn't even deliver trains, cows, SCUD etc on time:
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator....Sri3TnRq5UsVU3kKvIEmYQFRcqGbzXMStIzFzLQw

Also their dynamic campaign will supposedly be ready for "beta" in 2021.... 2020 isn't even here yet and they are still no closer to one of the most requested items for DCS.... How is it Falcon 4.0 was able to furnish a dynamic campaign back in the 90's but these morons still can't figure it out???? Updates to ATC...."down the road"...Weather..."down the road"...Fix the night lighting "down the road"... Fix the Yak-52, literally the most uncomplicated aircraft in the game.."down the road".... Is ED full of the folks not qualified enough to get jobs over 1C Game Studios????

I'd be surprised if ED is even around by 2022 at this rate, even the fanboys are gonna eventually start seeing these folks for what they are, frauds.

#4493640 - 10/19/19 03:45 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Morons and frauds, eh? 2022 can't come soon enough for some I'd imagine



#4493643 - 10/19/19 04:02 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Sokol1]  
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Quote
One of the toughest aspects of game development is setting priorities.


At least wags has a clue on where they failed the most.

#4493671 - 10/19/19 07:01 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: Winfield]  
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,563
Originally Posted by Winfield



A phone call? The plot thickens

45 minutes worth. He was trying to do damage control. I was part of the SIMMOD A-10 team, a mod at LOF as well as CombatAce and I'd released numerous skin packs and a series of missions for LOMAC and I was associated with CH Products when they'd do their live stuff such as at E3.. So in that instance I was fairly well known, I guess he thought I was gonna be a fanboi. But you can't talk smack about people in the community that I care about and expect me to not call you on it. At one point I almost had my attorney send a cease and desist letter to Wags. I was fed up with how he pulled some strings with Thrustmaster to keep me from being one of the reps from CombatAce sent to review it before it's release. The other guy that was going with me to E3 told Eric at CombatAce that if Rugg doesn't go he doesn't either. So TM didn't get any representation from one of the websites dedicated to the flight sim community. I've been out of it for a while but at one point CombatAce was the place to go besides SimHQ and Frugals. Then I got busy at work (I'm a contractor) and I just let sleeping dogs lie. I decided it was best for myself and for Wags just to let him get away with what he did. I was quite a bit younger and with a temper and that never plays well.

Last edited by LOF_Rugg; 10/19/19 07:02 PM. Reason: spelling (speeling) LOL
#4493692 - 10/19/19 09:29 PM Re: DCS: F-16C Viper [Re: reconmercs]  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,836
Paradaz Offline
Senior Member
Paradaz  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,836
UK
Originally Posted by reconmercs

Also their dynamic campaign will supposedly be ready for "beta" in 2021.... 2020 isn't even here yet and they are still no closer to one of the most requested items for DCS....


I think that's quite telling as I don't believe for a single minute that ED has a detailed roadmap through to 2021......simply because they change the goalposts so often and allow feature-creep to take hold of a lot of their development. To me, it says more about a dynamic campaign simply not being a priority and a backburner activity if it even is one at all. Combine this with whatever work ED have stacked up through 2020, they are also updating the KA50 cockpit and the A10 cockpit which in all honesty should not even be featuring as an priority whatsoever. There's still no impetus in finishing platforms and fixing the biggest issues.

To be frank, I don't believe a word ED say. They've proved their incompetence so many time in planning, development and testing and I don't believe they have the minerals within their team to actually turn this around. As for improving their communication, we've heard that a million times too, and the increase and quality of updates over a period of time lasted all of 2 months. Ultimately, ED have had 10 years to try and improve things and they haven't shown they're remotely capable. I've given up on the entire shambles but will wait with an open ear for notification that they've actually completed something they've started.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
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